41 réponses à ce sujet

[VinWizzy]

I want to know how good the claymore shotgun is for a vanguard on insanity. I chose the assualt rifle twice already for 2 playthroughs with the vanguard but i want to do someting different.

[Waltzingbear]

It's not a glitch dammit! <_<
It's kinda like the reload cancelling in Gears of War only more crude and based on the click sound rather than a visual display.

As for the question: it's a hell of a gun but you do need to practice it. It's not mandatory for a Vanguard but it's really fun to play with.

I'd suggest watching a few videos of a Vanguard gameplay to really get the sense of how it plays out.

[termokanden]

I recommend the Claymore. Fun, powerful. You have to learn the reload trick, but it's not hard at all.

[mi55ter]

I'd like to play devil's advocate and take assault rifle training if you have the Geth Shotgun-Mattock assault rifle weapons pack. 2 very fine guns, the mattock becomes more or less indispensable late game, and if I'm not mistaken a charged Geth Plasma Shotgun shot deals more damage than a Claymore shot. My personal preference, anyways.

[Sidesalad]

Video for you; bear in mind that Kronner1 is an absolute monster with the Claymore Vanguard. I doubt you get this good in a hurry.
Suicide Mission

Modifié par Sidesalad, 16 mai 2011 - 12:30 .

[termokanden]

A charged GPS shot deals more damage yes. But I dislike the weapon for CQC. There's a small delay before firing and it's very precise. I really find it better once you get out of melee range.

But the real reason I pick the Claymore is simply that it sounds good and feels like a very powerful weapon. It's just the right amount of overkill.

One thing I don't see mentioned often about the Claymore is the ammo. 21 shots total, at least 2 shots per pickup, and yet it deals crazy damage per shot. It's like the Widow of shotguns, but I don't run out of ammo with it. Then again I guess that's true for all shotguns except maybe the Scimitar.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 mai 2011 - 12:42 .

[Sailears]

Can't really go wrong with either.

The thing to think about is whether you prefer any of the other shotguns.
If you're comfortable running with any of the others, then grabbing AR and specifically mattock will be a nice support.
Otherwise claymore is an absolute beast (with reload trick), and you'll be flying around like the ball in a game of pinball.

[Clonedzero]

i love the assault rifle personally. but then again i prefer to use charge as a tactical move to flank enemies rather than my primary attack, just my playstyle.

personally i dont like the claymore and i feel really cheap abusing a reload animation glitch. yes its abusing a glitch, just admit it rofl, you're breaking the intended reload animation for faster reloads, thats a glitch. im sorry, its not an intended gameplay mechanic like in gears of war. its a glitch. youre glitching when you break the reload animation on the claymore. justify it anyway you want, its still a glitch.

[Bozorgmehr]

Yeah, I'm with termokanden on this one. The GPS ain't the most Vanguard-friendly weapon. The delay before firing is really bad, charging is not an option while you're in CQC so it's only useful before the first Charge, the GPS is the worst ammo power shotgun and, well, it sounds terrible. Vanguard go in hard and hit even harder - a 'gun' that sounds like pew-pew doesn't fit their flavor - Claymore goes BOOM - that's more like it

Not having played a Claymore Vanguard almost equals not having played Vanguard at all Seriously though, everyone should try the Claymore, it's an awesome weapon! Although I'd find it hard to believe there are people who don't like the Claymore - you have to experience it yourself to make up your mind. An assault rifle gives the Vanguard options at medium-long range, but the Claymore can destroy everything in ME2 easily (including the Thresher Maw, Geth Colossus and the Human Reaper) - there's absolutely no need whatsoever to take assault rifle training on Collector Ship in terms of effectiveness or sheer killing speed.

@ Clonedzero; The devs put it in ME2 on purpose - it ain't a glitch, it's a game mechanic and has nothing to do with the Claymore though it does need reload canceling to compete with the other shotguns.

[termokanden]

Clonedzero wrote...

personally i dont like the claymore and i feel really cheap abusing a reload animation glitch. yes its abusing a glitch, just admit it rofl, you're breaking the intended reload animation for faster reloads, thats a glitch. im sorry, its not an intended gameplay mechanic like in gears of war. its a glitch. youre glitching when you break the reload animation on the claymore. justify it anyway you want, its still a glitch.

We had this discussion before and were told it was intended. I can't prove that it was or that it wasn't. But the Claymore is perfect balance-wise with the trick and it isn't without it. That to me really just says you should abuse this trick/glitch/whatever. And I don't normally use exploits at all.

Using Firepower Pack weapons does far more to upset the game balance. On the other hand, this trick just makes the Claymore balanced rather than underpowered.

[termokanden]

Well we can agree that the gun balance is way off without even considering the Claymore.

But if we're talking about the Claymore, I think it's even more amusing how little sense it makes on normal. You'll one-shot most enemies with a faster shotgun. Even the Scimitar massacres everything on lower difficulties.

On insanity though, I use the Claymore. I love the Claymore. Don't really care what's best or whether the trick is a glitch or not.

Modifié par termokanden, 16 mai 2011 - 01:15 .

[Waltzingbear]

The answer to the question is of course unobtainable as neither of us was in the development process and can tell if this was intentionally implemented or just naturally occurred and was decided to be kept, or if it was overlooked and Christina was just not telling the truth, when strictly saying that she had put it in there herself.

However I can make a few point as to explain why I indeed don't believe this is a glitch, that is, not an unintentional effect caused by a defect in the system.

1. As I've said, Gears of War utilizes the same mechanism that allows a skilful player to shorten the loading process. It is obvious that if you make a third-person-shooter you're going to look at similar games.
2. The reload cancelling is possible with every weapon, and it is seemingly not random. Every weapon seems to have a specific moment where the reload is 'finished'.
3. This leads us to the following- if it is a malfunction why is it only working exactly after the click sound from the reload action is heard and when the thermal clip is ejected? Is that not to be perceived as an indicator to when there's a bullet in the barrel ready to fire?
4. I'm not denying that this is not the most elegant way to implement such a mechanism. Tapping the reload key again to perform the action and displaying the reload timer might have been a better way to communicate this, but the current implementation might have been simply a 'cheaper' way of doing it, as the reload animation is cancelled by any action not just a melee attack.
It may, no doubt, be a 'half-baked idea' but if so it was designed nonetheless.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 16 mai 2011 - 01:53 .

[VinWizzy]

I do have the firepower pack and the mattock is awesome even though it has low ammo. I guess I will try the claymore and the reloading trick to see if i get the hang of it. Thanks!

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Waltzingbear wrote...

The answer to the question is of course unobtainable as neither of us was in the development process and can tell if this was intentionally implemented or just naturally occurred and was decided to be kept, or if it was overlooked and Christina was just not telling the truth, when strictly saying that she had put it in there herself.

However I can make a few point as to explain why I indeed don't believe this is a glitch, that is, not an unintentional effect caused by a defect in the system.

1. As I've said, Gears of War utilizes the same mechanism that allows a skilful player to shorten the loading process. It is obvious that if you make a third-person-shooter you're going to look at similar games.
2. The reload cancelling is possible with every weapon, and it is seemingly not random. Every weapon seems to have a specific moment where the reload is 'finished'.
3. This leads us to the following- if it is a malfunction why is it only working exactly after the click sound from the reload action is heard and when the thermal clip is ejected? Is that not to be perceived as an indicator to when there's a bullet in the barrel ready to fire?
4. I'm not denying that this is not the most elegant way to implement such a mechanism. Tapping the reload key again to perform the action and displaying the reload timer might have been a better way to communicate this, but the current implementation might have been simply a 'cheaper' way of doing it, as the reload animation is cancelled by any action not just a melee attack.
It may, no doubt, be a 'half-baked idea' but if so it was designed nonetheless.

After learning to do the reload trick on everything, I've come to pretty much agree with all of this. It's hard to call the Claymore's trick a glitch anymore, since it's easily doable with all guns and animation-cancelling is a common fixure in many many action games (and even some non-'action' games) as well. I say everyone should learn to do it, really, as it really opens up a whole new dimension of play for the other classes as well, not just Soldier and Vanguard.

Also, props to the guy that figured out how to do it consistently on all weapons... I remember the post, but not the poster.

[RedCaesar97]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Last comment on the reload glitch:
...
That is not really a game mechanic, that is a "Good luck console suckers, wuahaha!" in disguise if I may put it in drastic application (exxagerated a little, however it is not far from the truth).

The reload-cancel trick works just fine on the console. I cannot speak to how easy it is for PC users to pull it off, but you can pull it off just fine on the XBOX360 and PS3 users should have no problems either.

And as other people have mentioned, you can use it for all guns, although not all guns benefit from it. Rapid-fire weapons for example (such as the Avenger) do not benefit, since you will actually stop firing after the initial reload fire. And unless you are doing some close-quarters-combat or no-scoping with a sniper rifle, sniper rifles do not benefit from the reload-cancel trick. 

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^Soldier tends to benefit the least from it, I think (maybe Vanguard too, depending on build), but everyone else has at least one spammable power that can be cast and then recast within the time it takes to empty a clip and do the reload cancel. I've found that using a power to cancel the weapon reload ups your overall DPS / Mayhem Generation drastically - especially on boss enemies.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 16 mai 2011 - 04:40 .

[Ahglock]

It may not be a glitch but it is a really poorly implemented feature. Also this is the wrong kind of hidden feature, hidden things to find when you explore are a good hidden feature. Hidden control mechanics are bad hidden features, stuff like this should be in the non-existent manuals we get in modern games or at least in the hints we are subjected to during load screens.(every other game I know of that featured perfect reloads or whatever tells the player about them at least)

Furthermore while I love the claymore and say take it every time with your vanguard, I firmly believe the upgrade guns need more love, it should not only beat out other guns when you use the reload feature, and it should not only be good once you get to insanity. If you are giving up versatility your specialized gun should shine. For a game balanced around normal it is amazing how many of the guns are only balanced on insanity.

Modifié par Ahglock, 16 mai 2011 - 04:39 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^You've got a good point - though honestly, I don't know why it took us so long as a community to figure out how to animation cancel... esp. how it's a common thing in many games. It may not have been intended to be as hidden as it ended up being.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 16 mai 2011 - 04:46 .

[Ahglock]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^You've got a good point - though honestly, I don't know why it took us so long as a community to figure out how to animation cancel... esp. how it's a common thing in many games. It may not have been intended to be as hidden as it ended up being.

Probably because the timing was sound based and it was using a button other than the reload button which is the most common method.  Lots of times when you pull off something like this you don't notice it since it isn't consistent until you know how you pulled it off.  

[Bozorgmehr]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^Soldier tends to benefit the least from it, I think (maybe Vanguard too, depending on build), but everyone else has at least one spammable power that can be cast and then recast within the time it takes to empty a clip and do the reload cancel. I've found that using a power to cancel the weapon reload ups your overall DPS / Mayhem Generation drastically - especially on boss enemies.

Yeah, timing reload and using powers makes quite a difference regardless class or weapon. The 1.5 seconds reload animation (all weapons) cut in half helps a lot and it's easy to incorporate this into using powers (just hit the reload button whenever you're low on shots right before casting a power). With most weapons this means firing one or a couple extra shots compared to someone who doesn't use this mechanic (per clip cycle).

[Waltzingbear]

Yeah what Boz said; it can be done with almost every action, like jumping out of cover or using a power. If you ever play a Claymore Soldier and need to place a double shot, try firing the first one and then start the reload and activate ARush instead of hitting the melee key; it works wonders.


I've also been reading again what Christina wrote. http://social.bioware.com/forum/
She says and I quote "The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games".

I wouldn't really go to call it a feature, only an old trick for advanced players to be able to reproduce.

[Alamar2078]

The Claymore [IMHO] is nice even if you do not use the "Fast Reload Feature" [FRF] ...

Your DPS without the FRF will be terrible so the Claymore is really only useful for OSOK and picking off outliers or enemies in pairs instead of the havoc you can cause with the FRF.

I find the playstyle [wiping out outliers] rewarding because otherwise the class just seems broken to my personal sensibilities. YMMV