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Mass Effect 3 worries due to ME2 and DA2...


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#76
The_11thDoctor

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TOBY FLENDERSON wrote...

My biggest fear is the retconing of past facts to better suit EA's advertising machine, oh woops it already been done:

http://xbox360.ign.c.../1168458p1.html

Seriously Bioware your pulling the same corner cutting cop out as DA2? Haven't we had 2 games already that say Sheppard is straight? (Last one is retorical and is a yes). You delay the game to make it better but only make it more of a cliche. Make me wonder who the romances woudl be with given there is only one bisexual squadmate, jack, and the Asari who are mono gendered.


Quite sure you could be the man-lovin shep in ME1 and 2... Who cares about that? If you like women, romance the women. How does gay people having their option effect you? You wont get a gay love scene unless you choose it. Just dont play drunk around romance time and you wont mess up and truamatize yourself.

I think improving you parties AI needs to be top priority if their is still no Co-OP in 3.

#77
The_11thDoctor

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Someone With Mass wrote...

I stopped reading at "multiplayer"

And for the love of God, stop comparing DA2 to ME3. The only thing they have in common is that they're developed by BioWare.

They don't have the same development team, they don't have the same development time, they have different in-game systems, they don't have the same settings, etc etc.


YOu missed the point. Both are done by BIoware and both made me fear for the future of ME3 and DA whatever. Both games went in the wronge direction. ME3 sounds promising on paper, but I still fear for it turning out bad. Both DA2<DAO in everything minus Fighting, Banter, World being modeled better/ Armor looking better. Everything else took a dive. ME2<ME1 minus Modeling/Textures/Lighting, and Bigger cast of Party members. The leveling, Exploration, Armor, Custom bullets, The Worlds got smaller or none existant, The citadel is proof of how it went in the wrong direction in just one spot alone. There are a ton of things I have issues with in ME2. It's still fun, but it could've been a lot better.

For the love of the maker/creator or goddess, please pay attention. Both teams screwed up and Im worried about ME3. That's the short version of this thread. If anyone else feels worried, tell us.

#78
Someone With Mass

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http://social.biowar...3/index/5422342

Now shut up about your worries.
They've been done to death and back.

#79
Cainne Chapel

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Me1 over Me2 in terms of overall story I can agree with. and yes as for opinions to each his own.

But as far as gameplay and pretty much everything else I still feel ME2 was a VAST improvement over ME1.

Sure the worlds weren't as big (or as empty) But there were still great scenes on the ones you could go too and while the environment wasn't as big in say the Citadel, it DID feel more alive.

But I digress...

I also dont see how the game went in the wrong direction when most every major outlet (not to mention sales) think the game improved vastly and there are number to support that (awards, yada yada).

Could the game have been better? OF COURSE. But it not bad enough to say that one would worry about 3 (especially since the devs said they want to inject more RPG into it).

I mean I can still pick out a thousand flaws from ME1 (which I love and have hundreds and hundreds of hours logged in) but honestly ME2 does make me want to play it more than ME1 did, because i adore the gameplay that much. (and well... I love me some Garrus and Grunt...but thats another matter)

MP aside, I dont think ME3 is in danger of becoming DA 2 (mind you I LIKE DA2, and DA:O but nearly as much as I like the ME series)

#80
corporal doody

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my only concern for ME3 is minor....it is how the VS spectre thing is going to be handled. I thought ME2 was outstanding. The game followed SMEAC to a tee. DA2...though...i see as a isolated incident for bioware. i have only played 4 hours. the action was nice...the story choppy. the worse part for me was i had trouble liking the characters. 4 hours might not be enuff time....but compared to other bioware games it was forever.

#81
Cainne Chapel

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Personally DA2...I loved the characters.... (Mainly Varric...god i love Varric.)

#82
onelifecrisis

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It really amazes me how often I see people saying "I'd rather have worthless pointless RPG elements that make no difference to gameplay, than no RPG elements at all" and "I'd rather have an explorable universe made of cheap, poorly made endlessly copy-pasted crap than not be able to explore at all". I'm glad Bioware aren't listening to those people.

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 17 mai 2011 - 12:39 .


#83
nicethugbert

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Gatt9 wrote...

Walker White wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You
are exagerating the complexity of MP.  MP is not adding anything new. 
It's just replacing the NPCs with more PCs.  Just look at all the MP
play time that Diablo II got.  There are lots of examples of light
weight MP that keeps games playing for months if not years.  Look at
Modern Warfare 2.


You are clearly not a game
designer.  PvP game balance is not even remotely the same as PvE
balance.  That is a lot of extra work. There is a reason that Starcraft
II has different units in the single player and multiplayer modes.


This.

Two major problems....

1. 
Balance and PvP related activities.  Balancing PvP is a nightmare, 
because you cannot have one class that overshadows everything, 
everything has to be rebalanced.  No one cares if a high level character
is God-mode in single player.  Do it in Multiplayer and you're going to
get flooded with complaints.

2.  Network code,  especially
retrofitting it into an engine that didn't originally support it.  This
is a massive undertaking,  it requires redoing everything,  because now
you have to keep updating everyone's position dynamically,  in all areas
on the current map.  Plus there's timing issues,  to prevent
Super-speed cheaters,  security issues,  authetication issues,  and much
more.  This is an easy additional 6-12 months at a minimum in extra
development time,  for something that's really out of place in a
narrative driven game.

Waste of resources.


I don't care if it doesn't have PvP and I don't care if it's balanced.  I'd be happy to play party or solo PvE.

And again, lots of games have sucessfullly included both MP and SP and lots of people like it.  And lots of those games use the Unreal Engine 3 as does the entire Mass Effect series.

So, you guys are exagerating the cost/bennefit ratio as a loss.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 17 mai 2011 - 12:51 .


#84
SilentK

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Hmmm..... not worried the slightest. I love DA2, have more Hawkes than Wardens and had a really good time in ME2. Yay for me I guess =)

#85
Cainne Chapel

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nicethugbert wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Walker White wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You
are exagerating the complexity of MP.  MP is not adding anything new. 
It's just replacing the NPCs with more PCs.  Just look at all the MP
play time that Diablo II got.  There are lots of examples of light
weight MP that keeps games playing for months if not years.  Look at
Modern Warfare 2.


You are clearly not a game
designer.  PvP game balance is not even remotely the same as PvE
balance.  That is a lot of extra work. There is a reason that Starcraft
II has different units in the single player and multiplayer modes.


This.

Two major problems....

1. 
Balance and PvP related activities.  Balancing PvP is a nightmare, 
because you cannot have one class that overshadows everything, 
everything has to be rebalanced.  No one cares if a high level character
is God-mode in single player.  Do it in Multiplayer and you're going to
get flooded with complaints.

2.  Network code,  especially
retrofitting it into an engine that didn't originally support it.  This
is a massive undertaking,  it requires redoing everything,  because now
you have to keep updating everyone's position dynamically,  in all areas
on the current map.  Plus there's timing issues,  to prevent
Super-speed cheaters,  security issues,  authetication issues,  and much
more.  This is an easy additional 6-12 months at a minimum in extra
development time,  for something that's really out of place in a
narrative driven game.

Waste of resources.


I don't care if it doesn't have PvP and I don't care if it's balanced.  I'd be happy to play party or solo PvE.

And again, lots of games have sucessfullly included both MP and SP and lots of people like it.  And lots of those games use the Unreal Engine 3 as does the entire Mass Effect series.

So, you guys are exagerating the cost/bennefit ratio as a loss.


Kinda missing the point man, Why would they do multiplayer if they cant make it competitive? How many people do you know that Clamor for SOLO PVE MP against the Computer (Does that even make sense??) not to mention people will get bored REAL fast MP wise if they cant compete against others people.  

Thus the need for them to balance classes, powers, tech skills, weapons, etc.  Which Bioware even said would take more resources at this point than they're comofortable with doing. 

So back to the original point, if they can do it right. Why do it?

#86
nicethugbert

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Cainne Chapel wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Walker White wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

You
are exagerating the complexity of MP.  MP is not adding anything new. 
It's just replacing the NPCs with more PCs.  Just look at all the MP
play time that Diablo II got.  There are lots of examples of light
weight MP that keeps games playing for months if not years.  Look at
Modern Warfare 2.


You are clearly not a game
designer.  PvP game balance is not even remotely the same as PvE
balance.  That is a lot of extra work. There is a reason that Starcraft
II has different units in the single player and multiplayer modes.


This.

Two major problems....

1. 
Balance and PvP related activities.  Balancing PvP is a nightmare, 
because you cannot have one class that overshadows everything, 
everything has to be rebalanced.  No one cares if a high level character
is God-mode in single player.  Do it in Multiplayer and you're going to
get flooded with complaints.

2.  Network code,  especially
retrofitting it into an engine that didn't originally support it.  This
is a massive undertaking,  it requires redoing everything,  because now
you have to keep updating everyone's position dynamically,  in all areas
on the current map.  Plus there's timing issues,  to prevent
Super-speed cheaters,  security issues,  authetication issues,  and much
more.  This is an easy additional 6-12 months at a minimum in extra
development time,  for something that's really out of place in a
narrative driven game.

Waste of resources.


I don't care if it doesn't have PvP and I don't care if it's balanced.  I'd be happy to play party or solo PvE.

And again, lots of games have sucessfullly included both MP and SP and lots of people like it.  And lots of those games use the Unreal Engine 3 as does the entire Mass Effect series.

So, you guys are exagerating the cost/bennefit ratio as a loss.


Kinda missing the point man, Why would they do multiplayer if they cant make it competitive? How many people do you know that Clamor for SOLO PVE MP against the Computer (Does that even make sense??) not to mention people will get bored REAL fast MP wise if they cant compete against others people.  

Thus the need for them to balance classes, powers, tech skills, weapons, etc.  Which Bioware even said would take more resources at this point than they're comofortable with doing. 

So back to the original point, if they can do it right. Why do it?


I get your point, it's all about the lowered expectations.  BW just isn't good enough.  Other companies can, but, not BW.

#87
Cainne Chapel

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Has nothing to do with lowered expectations or BW not being good enough. Name one game out there that has as many variables that carry over from game to game as Bioware while having a 20+ hour long single player campaign?

So if they feel adding a MP component with take away too many resources from the main game. Why do it? for a sub par single player and MP experience? What would be the point in that? Not to mention wasn't needed in ME1 or ME2. So why pull hair out for it in ME3? When they feel it would be rushed and "tacked" on.

What point would that serve really?

Not gonna find too many out there

#88
Cainne Chapel

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and, Personally speaking. I really dont feel they NEED a MP component to make their game relevant.
I still play ME1 and 2 to this day and if 3 is as good as I feel its gonna be, I'll be playing that long after its released as well.

Cant say the same for many of the games where MP is the main mode of choice (CoD, Battlefield, etc).

#89
Evil Johnny 666

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Cainne Chapel wrote...

Sure the worlds weren't as big (or as empty) But there were still great scenes on the ones you could go too and while the environment wasn't as big in say the Citadel, it DID feel more alive. 

More alive, yes, but smaller. That's not exaclt an improvement, that's a change. Personally, I'd take bigger rather than more alive, at least in this context. I never found the ME1 citadel like a teaser of sorts, I never felt like I was missing something. Omega must be the worst. It looks great and all, but after walking for 2 minutes you saw everything. I felt disappointed less than an hour after I landed there, hell less than that I think. It felt cramped and small. Cramped is good since it goes with the design of the city, but so small that I felt like playing a demo rather than the real deal. If you're going to bother create such extenisve aesthetics for a city, better use it as much as possible, and not 80% of it for empty corridors to shoot through, rather than areas to actually do some RPG stuff like the Afterlife.


I also dont see how the game went in the wrong direction when most every major outlet (not to mention sales) think the game improved vastly and there are number to support that (awards, yada yada).

Yeah sure, because that stuff actually means something... You know, CoD sells MORE than ever after countless iterations of the same damn thing, the games never made any real improvements besides fancier graphics, addition of small bits here and there or significant change. The CoD series is the ultimate proof that lazyness is rewarded by awards and sales. PLUS, most of the sales are made in the first week, ie. people have no idea how the game actually plays, people are not able to actually judge the game. So sales is hardly a way to properly show how people like the game, it's only because of the hype. I bought ME2 and was disappointed, yet me buying the game is counting towards the game being good? Nonsense. That's why creating incredible hype like Bioware or Bungie does, along a strong marketing campaign is more important than actually making a good game. And it shows. If anything, sales only prove how good the last game was, but then there's plenty of new people who come in because of the marketting campaign.

And reviews are obviously biaised. I recently read IGN's Brink review, and it was complete unproffesional trash. There were contradictions with sentiments they share with other games everywhere. Or, the reviewer was dumb enough to not get what the game was about. Reviews are not made to inform us, they are made to sell a product. Teamxbox stopped reviewing for months after they gave FFXIII two very low scores in a row when they sent a complete copy of the game. A gamespot dude got fired after giving Kane and Lynch a low score. Plus, you just have to actually READ the review, to realize there's far better ones written by non-professional people. That, and reviewers having to be productive means they won't play through ME2 more than one time to see if the various mechanics are actually well made and all. I loved ME2 on my first playthrough, but started to be more disappointed the more I played it. You just can't accurately judge a game when playing it a bit like reviewers do, and that's another reason why you shouldn't trust ''professional'' reviewers. And awards is just a way to get post-release sales. That may be an exaggeration, but I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway, you could already guess the winners based on the score the games got, these people giving awards haven't played much more the game. I'm not saying ME2 would have necessarily got lesser scores if reviewers played more the game, but it would definitely be more accurate. Some games would get the same scores, other lower or higher. 

Could the game have been better? OF COURSE. But it not bad enough to say that one would worry about 3 (especially since the devs said they want to inject more RPG into it).

Imo, by scrapping so many aspects and rebooting others, they couldn't actually IMPROVE on pre-existing stuff, so they get to release again stuff that could be improved on subsequent games. That, and I found most changes to be bad ones. Only the combat itself actually got better. But the level design is a massive step down if you don't count the bases on the planets to explore.

#90
nicethugbert

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Cainne Chapel wrote...

Has nothing to do with lowered expectations or BW not being good enough. Name one game out there that has as many variables that carry over from game to game as Bioware while having a 20+ hour long single player campaign?

So if they feel adding a MP component with take away too many resources from the main game. Why do it? for a sub par single player and MP experience? What would be the point in that? Not to mention wasn't needed in ME1 or ME2. So why pull hair out for it in ME3? When they feel it would be rushed and "tacked" on.

What point would that serve really?

Not gonna find too many out there


Baldur's Gate, the game BW fans never stop clamoring for.  And, BW wrote that game engine themselves.  They didn't make it with Unreal Engine 3 which already has MP.

#91
AlanC9

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nicethugbert wrote...

I don't care if it doesn't have PvP and I don't care if it's balanced.  I'd be happy to play party or solo PvE.


Are successful MP games typically unbalanced? Or PvE only? I wouldn't know.

And again, lots of games have sucessfullly included both MP and SP and lots of people like it.  And lots of those games use the Unreal Engine 3 as does the entire Mass Effect series.


Meaning that most of the network code's already there for ME if they wanted to pop it in?

Edit: just to put a personal stand in, I've got no objection to Bio doing a really half-assed implementation of MP. If all it takes is to just pop the existing UE3 MP code in and let her rip, then sure, go right ahead. I just don't want to see them worrying about how well it plays in MP.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 mai 2011 - 08:19 .


#92
nicethugbert

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AlanC9 wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

I don't care if it doesn't have PvP and I don't care if it's balanced.  I'd be happy to play party or solo PvE.


Are successful MP games typically unbalanced? Or PvE only? I wouldn't know.

And again, lots of games have sucessfullly included both MP and SP and lots of people like it.  And lots of those games use the Unreal Engine 3 as does the entire Mass Effect series.


Meaning that most of the network code's already there for ME if they wanted to pop it in?

Edit: just to put a personal stand in, I've got no objection to Bio doing a really half-assed implementation of MP. If all it takes is to just pop the existing UE3 MP code in and let her rip, then sure, go right ahead. I just don't want to see them worrying about how well it plays in MP.


People are always complaining about balance in games.  I don't think there has ever been a balanced game.  Yet, that didn't stop lots of people from playing Diablo 2 MP, Team Fortress classic, Counter Strike, WoW, etc. for years.  I played Diablo 2 and Team Fortress classic for years.  They each have a handfull of maps.  They are simple games.  But, if you listen to the MP haters, you'd think that MP hogs all the resources that SP does.  And, with all the resources it takes to make an SP game, they're still not satisfied.

Yep, the code is there, just like in Unreal Tournament.

#93
Cainne Chapel

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How does BG have anything to do with ME? Completely different TYPE of game and Engine.

THey ALSO did NWN but again completely different type of game and engine. and while yes it DOES use the UE3 engine its also a heavily modified engine.

If bioware themselves have said it would take too many resources to implement it correctly well then I guess I would have to their superior judgement as they know their system better than anyone on the forums. You also have to remember that the game may use a different network code or not be designed to have multiple PCs at once etc etc.

Not to mention shephard already acts differentely that other characters in the game in regards to physics and powers used on him. For all we know it may take a complete re-writing of the code to even implement correctly *shrugs* So us arguing about it is really a moot point until the devs say differently.

But seeing as ME has ALWAYS been a single player experience if they dont want to detract from that... why ask them?


and Evil Johnny: I can understand if you dont like the game compared to one and thats fine too, opinions are opinions after all right? Here's to hoping ME3 fills that void for you.

But As for me, I love ME2 more than ME1 and I love ME1 A LOT. But overall I felt the flow of the gameplay was better, combat was better paced and everything just felt "Better" to me. Story wise ME1 did have a more epic and grand storyline, befitting a first game, but I do like Me2's as well. But I digress.
Like I said, I do hope ME3 has more of the features you're looking for in an RPG but that said, aside from minor stat increases and a basically worthless inventory, I really dont see what "RPG features" are more pronounced in 1 over 2 personally.

#94
Jentario

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 http://social.biowar...46/polls/20187/

#95
nicethugbert

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The fact that the games and their engines are different does not pose an argument against MP at all. Lots of different games have MP and lots of people enjoy them, even simple MP, for years on end with the same handful of maps over and over. You can put MP on any game except Solitaire. MP does not detract from a game. It adds to it, with much less cost than SP.

UE3 comes stock with MP. Spending time removing it means you look foolish saying that you don't want to spend time on MP.

Again, Cainne Chapel, lots of games have done it and lots of companies have done it, with the same engine no less, and made money off it. So, if BW can't achieve what other companies can, then they can't be as good as the others. If you don't recognize this fact then you have lowered expectations for BW.

#96
CroGamer002

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"Mass Effect 3 worries due to ME2 and DA2"

I lost faith to thread.
Even worst when you said DA2.

aang001 wrote...

I find myself more and more worried about ME3 each day. Bioware has increasingly been getting more and more careless and cutting more and more corners in what I can only preceive as laziness. In ME2, the worlds seem to get smaller, there are glitches that shouldnt be there in large amounts,


Thread lost every credibility.

Move along people.

#97
Fixers0

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Mesina2 wrote...

"Mass Effect 3 worries due to ME2 and DA2"

I lost faith to thread.
Even worst when you said DA2.

aang001 wrote...

I find myself more and more worried about ME3 each day. Bioware has increasingly been getting more and more careless and cutting more and more corners in what I can only preceive as laziness. In ME2, the worlds seem to get smaller, there are glitches that shouldnt be there in large amounts,


Thread lost every credibility.

Move along people.


Well you don't make up the rules here do you?

Also if someones loses credidbility in your eyes because he disagree's with you're personal opinion, then you are just ranting about him.

Modifié par Fixers0, 18 mai 2011 - 01:54 .


#98
Cainne Chapel

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I hear what you're saying Bert

But the fact remains just because its been done before means nothing and does NOT detract from BW ability at programming and making a good game.

Some games are made for MP, some aren't. and as you've said they HAVE made MP style games in the past.
None of that has ANYTHING to do with Mass Effect. You're using an apples to oranges argument that makes no bearing on the game itself.

In that case why wasn't MP implemented in ME1? or 2? or Dragon Age Origins? or DA 2?

and not only does bioware know how to do Multiplayer... they're in the process of making an MMO (SWTOR) so they understandabily know the ups and downs of the process.

Once again, they've decided that they'd rather focus on a single player story (which is what Mass effect has ALWAYS been about) rather than worry about tacking on a MP segment if they felt it would be sub par.

Honestly I dont play MP components of games much, so having an MP mode in ME doesn't really turn me one way or another. But I do get the feeling you just like to argue the point.

That or you just like to say BW has lowered expectations...which of course would mean there was an expectation for MP from the start when there wasn't.

#99
rapscallioness

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MP for ME3?...meh. I feel like Bioware has a good thing going, and they already have alot to live up to w/ this 3rd installment. Don't screw it up now. Build upon your success. Bioware has their work cut out for them as it is, with all the anticipation...sheesh.

However, I feel their team can do it up right. I mean, I'm sure they've been learning as they go w/ ME1 & 2. I just hope they don't get cheap; don't get rushed--we will wait; stay true to their "Voice"; stay true to their Craft; keep your standards and expectations high, Bioware, when making this game...and your fans' jaws will drop when they see the final product.

As far as Shep. being gay, or not...meh. Maybe he comes out the closet in ME3...I don't care. It's only an option. You don't have to go there if you don't want to. And frankly, I feel if they're going to have a relationship option in the game at all, it's only fair to include bi or gay options. One of the things we like about the game are the choices we get to make. I think it's impressive that Bioware exhibits the backbone to address the subject honestly

BTW, I like planet scanning...yes, I said it! I like planet scanning. Granted, I did upgrade the scanner so it's much quicker and easier to use...but with so many ppl hating it, they'll probably toss it out :(.

#100
HTTP 404

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Imagine if bioware actually used ALL of our suggestions....