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[nightscrawl]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There is also a bit of evidence to suggest that the Arlathan elves were the first to use blood magic and the Tevinters conquered them for that information.

Now you're being just as bad as the wiki (which says exactly that in a different way) in not citing any sources (while it's a wonderful fan resource this is one of the problems I have with it.) "Historians argue on this point" or "There is also a bit of evidence to suggest" can be used for anything really. Quote a codex, quote the novels, quote a dev statement, quote a piece of dialogue from a companion or an NPC during a quest and those would be considered legitimate.

I know it seems like I'm harping on this (and I'm not picking on you specifically EWR), but if you come to the forums for serious discussion of lore related material you have to cite something (like Ian's example of Jowan above) as a basis for the argument or it just all becomes about opinion.


This is pretty entertaining though .

[TEWR]

I'm not using the wiki as my basis for it. I remember seeing it somewhere before, either mentioned in game or on these forums.

I mean, I'll dig around for it, but I don't remember where I saw it. It was definitely NOT on the wiki though.

and for the record, I do use lore and facts from the games in almost all of my discussions. Anytime you see me not giving a source to back up a claim is due to my faulty memory. Or I'm really tired. Right now this thread's original topic is just a theory, with not much weight to it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mai 2011 - 03:55 .

[TEWR]

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837
here though, David Gaider says that the Old Gods taught magic, but that doesn't mean they created it. If that adds anything to this discussion. Whether that means the old gods teaching Tevinter is what actually happened is unknown, but it's possible that:

• the elves knew magic first
• humans came along
• Humans and elves traded for who knows how long
• Humans were taught magic by the Old Gods
• Humans used this magic to gain control of demons and dragons alike, and proceeded to assault Arlathan. 

But this is just another of my theories.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[doloreg]

OP, we know that the joining is blood magic, that the taint can be somewhat controlled by blood magic and that there can be no cure.
The Darkspawn are not infected, they are born this way. You can cure their lack of mind, but not their race.
But yeah, it may be a way to get rid of the taint itself.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

http://social.biowar...508455/3#509837
here though, David Gaider says that the Old Gods taught magic, but that doesn't mean they created it. If that adds anything to this discussion. Whether that means the old gods teaching Tevinter is what actually happened is unknown, but it's possible that:

• the elves knew magic first
• humans came along
• Humans and elves traded for who knows how long
• Humans were taught magic by the Old Gods
• Humans used this magic to gain control of demons and dragons alike, and proceeded to assault Arlathan. 

But this is just another of my theories.

My theory is that the disappearance of Arlathan was the elves' work. Either a horrible mistake or an intentional exodus that has many of them still living there where ever it may be. I mean, we know those elves had portals to another, unknown dimension (the eluvians) and that their continent is gone. Just... gone. The survivors claim that the Tevinters destroyed it via magic, but that seems unlikely to me. To completely destroy a landmass? Even modern thermonuclear weapons couldn't do such a thing. I think it far likely that the thing was moved rather than destroyed... and the elves are the only ones known to possess that type of magic.

[Xilizhra]

Possibly Arlathan was sent to the same dimension that the Dalish gods were stuck in.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Possibly Arlathan was sent to the same dimension that the Dalish gods were stuck in.

Certainly a possibility.  Do you have a theory on where they are, beyond the in-game lore that Flemeth Fen'Harel tricked them and locked them up?

[Xilizhra]

Maybe there's one single prison dimension where the Old Gods were also stuck... and that all of them are far underground. And that this essence has leaked into the rock and become lyrium (which implies that this dimension is really old, predating the dwarves, who may have spontaneously mutated out of rock). And red lyrium somehow taps into the minds of the dimension's inhabitants.

[Fallstar]

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightscrawl,

The wiki is wrong. Demons are the usual source of bloodmagic but not the only source.

-Polaris

Polaris is right. In fact, blood magic was first introduced on Thedas when an Archon of the Tevinter Imperium conversed with the Old God Dumat in his dreams. Dumat gave him the secrets of blood magic in return for worship.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So, whilst driving and doing some errands twenty or so minutes ago, I wondered "What if blood magic is how the Taint can be cured fully and permanently?"

You see, I came to this idea after thinking about Merrill and the Eluvian. She cleansed the shard of the taint, which led me to this theory. We know that the Joining is a form of blood magic, but it's a very crude form it seems. What if it was possible to make all Hurlocks, Genlocks, Shrieks, and Ogres cured from the taint that infects them so?

If blood magic was actually what caused the darkspawn, what if it is also the cure to the darkspawn?


3.... 2... 1.... Discuss!

Well, conversely, what if blood magic (the magic kind, not the drinking blood kind) can spread the taint?

Blood mages can draw from a target to empower themselves. Can corruption be drawn along/within that power? Did the first darkspawn, if they were once magisters *physically* within the Fade, use blood magic on something they shouldn't have, and bring it back into the physical world?

As to your question (can it cure the taint) I would suggest that if the Imperium didn't record any methods after they dealt with the Blight, it's probably not possible (or incredibly obscure). But it's usually a heckuvalot easier to cause an infection than produce a cure. We have plenty of aggressive blood-borne diseases on Earth, after all, and remedies still elude us. :/

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

SirLogical wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Nightscrawl,

The wiki is wrong. Demons are the usual source of bloodmagic but not the only source.

-Polaris

Polaris is right. In fact, blood magic was first introduced on Thedas when an Archon of the Tevinter Imperium conversed with the Old God Dumat in his dreams. Dumat gave him the secrets of blood magic in return for worship.

That's not necessarily true, SirLogical.

This is a Codex from DA2, on the Forbidden Knowledge quest:

"The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones- Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound,and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born."" ―Unknown Mage

[TEWR]

we have many conflicting sources of the origins of blood magic, so it's hard to tell which is right. They're all possible, but shouldn't be stated as absolute fact until more information is given.


As for Arlathan, what if Morrigan and the Warden traveled to Arlathan using the mirror?

[Fallstar]

I'm sirlogical btw
My evidence comes from a codex entry in Origins regarding Tevinter. Since the band of three tell us that huge amounts of blood magic was used to reach the forgotten ones in the first place it seems unlikely that they were the ones to teach bloodmagic.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

The research of the Band of Three was to do with the Enigma of Kirkwall and summoning of demons, not the first contact with those demons. According to that Codex I quoted, blood magic was not used to make contact with the forbidden ones...the magisters just went 'deep in the Fade'.

You have to take Codex entries with a grain of salt. Just because they exist doesn't mean they are true, or reliable evidence. I posted my example to counter yours, but both--or none--could be true.

@The Ethereal Writer Redux -- What does Arlathan have to do with the original topic? There are so many speculations about where the mirror leads it doesn't seem productive to come up with more.

[TEWR]

well, I was just talking to Rifneno there since he brought up Arlathan.

[SkittlesKat96]

 Blood magic probably can cure or temporarily stop the effects...but blood magic is a dangerous thing to use though and I can imagine that mages have actually made deals with demons and had their blight cured but then been posessed by an evil fade spirit ('demon'.) Personally I just don't trust the use of blood magic for something like that...

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As for Arlathan, what if Morrigan and the Warden traveled to Arlathan using the mirror?

Possible I suppose, but I doubt they'd take the choice to follow her into the mirror away and a lot of people wouldn't have their Warden follow the least trustworthy person in Thedas through a magical teleporter to a dimension they know nothing at all about.

[TEWR]

I don't know. If you used your own blood or the blood of a corpse whose death you had nothing to do with, it's safe.


I just don't like how the Tevinters do things. Keeping an immense amount of slaves to use as fodder. But blood magic itself isn't evil. I think it was at first meant for the mages to use only their blood for the spells, and then the mages said "Screw that! I'll use other peoples' blood!"

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As for Arlathan, what if Morrigan and the Warden traveled to Arlathan using the mirror?

Possible I suppose, but I doubt they'd take the choice to follow her into the mirror away and a lot of people wouldn't have their Warden follow the least trustworthy person in Thedas through a magical teleporter to a dimension they know nothing at all about.

I can't see though how she isn't trustworthy.

• she travels with you to fight the Blight
  
• she offers to save your life through a ritual that works
  
• she can genuinely fall in love with you and shows deep regret about leaving you
  
• she tells you that Flemeth is far more dangerous than she looks

I'd say she's trustworthy. Sure the first two were at Flemeth's behest, but if you pursue a romance with her Flemeth is no longer why she's doing those things.

But I see your point. That is a fairly major choice (which should've also existed for the people who played Female Wardens) and to say that only following her is canon isn't fair. But she may have gone to Arlathan, whether the Warden did or didn't follow her.

[Virginian]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It wasn't indefinitely it appears. It seems that DA2 hints at his time being almost up, but through blood magic we do know he was able to prolong the Calling.

Where was that in DA2?

[TEWR]

Virginian wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It wasn't indefinitely it appears. It seems that DA2 hints at his time being almost up, but through blood magic we do know he was able to prolong the Calling.

Where was that in DA2?

If you let him live in Warden's Keep and continue his research ethically (I don't remember if there was the choice to say "Do your unethical methods"), then in DA2 travel to the Wounded Coast and turn right immediately. Head up that path, and eventually some bandits will say that they can't let any survivors be around and other bandits will say that they can't let the letters (which are on a corpse) reach the Wardens.

In those letters, Avernus talks about his studies on the Taint and about interesting new finds regarding the Darkspawn. Of particular interest to him was the Architect. He says something to the effect of "I feel my body catching up with me. If I should perish now, then maybe someone else can pick up the mantle where I left off..."

something like that anyway.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I never bought Warden's Keep but I do have to question if it is the case, why it's only happening now. It's been over a thousand years since the First Blight and at least two of them were in ages without the Chantry's blanket prohibition on blood magic. Why didn't any of the Tevinter Magisters or even mage Grey Wardens discover if it was before Avernus? In fact, the Tevinter Imperium probably had the best chance, the first war with the darkspawn lasted 2 hundred years and they all practiced blood magic regularly back then.

[TEWR]

They probably never really did any research on it or thought about it. Plus, Avernus had access to both the Taint and blood magic. Tevinter only had blood magic.


As for Grey Wardens, I can't say why. But the fact that it was researched should be enough, no matter how late it happened.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But the Magisters were locked in an endless war with the darkspawn for over 190 years, and the second half of that conflict was after the creation of the Grey Wardens. I find it hard to believe that in all that time, none of them tried to uncover something more about such a powerful enemy. The same with the Grey Wardens, since it's their sole purpose is to destroy them. I don't know if blood magic is supposedly the key to curing the taint or not but if I had to guess I'd say no because if it was, surely somebody would have stumbled across it by now.

[TEWR]

It's possible the Grey Wardens did do research but weren't able to turn up anything. Maybe Avernus had old Grey Warden records of research. Considering there was a library with an Archivist, it's within the realm of possibility.

As for Tevinter, if they brought back a darkspawn corpse to study the Taint would've spread. They didn't have a safe way to study it like the Grey Wardens do.