153 réponses à ce sujet

[Knight of Dane]

Couldn't have said it better myself dragonflight288, the Dragon Age books also gives some lights to it. Never let the architect live.

[TJPags]

But, you know, not every Darkspawn wants to be such a menace. There's one - was it called the Messenger? - which actually tries to help people after DAA. Can we really blame those that want to help for something out of their control?

That said, I've never let the Architect live. See Darkspawn, kill Darkspawn - it's the only way to go.

[Xilizhra]

Beerfish wrote...

Why are all darkspawn and architects being painted with the same brush? Must we destroy them all just because some of them are bad? There is no evidence at all that any darkspawn is actually bad or evil until they attack. Genocide of a whole group just because of a few bad apples is a terrible thing, this we all know.

Assuming you mean intelligent darkspawn, I actually agree. Somehow allowing the darkspawn to integrate into the world, though it would require an extensive alteration of their race, would be a remarkable accomplishment.

[dragonflight288]

True, the messenger doesn't want to kill anyone and does help people out. But he also gives isolated cases of the corruption. People are still becoming ghouls. Slowly and painfully dying despite him helping them. So to speak.

I'm not blaming them for something out of their control, but what the results of their corruption and action.

Hypothetically speaking, were I attacked by bandits on the road, but got rescued by the Messenger. I would be more than happy to thank him for saving my life. Now a week later I find out I've been corrupted and will slowly die and may lose my sanity. The only cure is to become a grey warden. Was I truly saved?

[The Cheese Mane]

The Architect and Utha on my play-through?

They're rotting in a ruin somewhere

[Foolsfolly]

dragonflight288 wrote...

True, the messenger doesn't want to kill anyone and does help people out. But he also gives isolated cases of the corruption. People are still becoming ghouls. Slowly and painfully dying despite him helping them. So to speak.

I'm not blaming them for something out of their control, but what the results of their corruption and action.

Hypothetically speaking, were I attacked by bandits on the road, but got rescued by the Messenger. I would be more than happy to thank him for saving my life. Now a week later I find out I've been corrupted and will slowly die and may lose my sanity. The only cure is to become a grey warden. Was I truly saved?

So he's like a Darkspawn Lenny Small from Of Mice and Men? He just wants to pet/save the rabbit/human but inadvertedly kills them.

That's sad as all hell now that I'm thinking of it in those terms.

[HSHAW]

The Cheese Mane wrote...

The Architect and Utha on my play-through?

They're rotting in a ruin somewhere

Didn't I say that this thread is about what do you think happens to them if you spared them in the first post of the thread?

[Porenferser]

So people kill the Architect and his disciples for reasons they are trying to fix?
That makes no sense.

Yes, until now they can only reproduce through rape, yes they are poisoning their enviroment, but if you kill them, this will always be the cause.

If you let them live, then maybe someday there will be a cure.

Modifié par Porenferser, 18 mai 2011 - 12:49 .

[Beerfish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Why are all darkspawn and architects being painted with the same brush? Must we destroy them all just because some of them are bad? There is no evidence at all that any darkspawn is actually bad or evil until they attack. Genocide of a whole group just because of a few bad apples is a terrible thing, this we all know.

Assuming you mean intelligent darkspawn, I actually agree. Somehow allowing the darkspawn to integrate into the world, though it would require an extensive alteration of their race, would be a remarkable accomplishment.

Eh?  Why are you just limiting it to intelligent darkspawn?  We can't assume all darkspawn are evil killers just because 99 out of 100 are.  To kill them all when 1 might be a nice darkspawn is a terrible thing to do.  I hear in some foreign land somewhere they don't kill their dark spawn and things turn out just fine there. 

[dragonflight288]

So people kill the Architect and his disciples for reasons they are trying to fix?
That makes no sense.

Yes, until now they can only reproduce through rape, yes they are poisoning their enviroment, but if you kill them, this will always be the cause.

If you let them live, then maybe someday there will be a cure.

---

That's a big 'if''. The Architect wants to save his people from their corruption. Or their reliance on Archdemons. No one's arguing that. I don't doubt his intentions. I doubt his track record and how all his experiments kind of blow up around him.

1. Experimenting on an Archdemon and starting a blight. Hundreds, maybe thousands of people die trying to stop it.

2. Seeking to turn all of Thedas into ghouls in order to bring about a peace between the darkspawn and every other race. Essentially committing genocide against everyone but his race.

3. His ritual to make Darkspawn intelligent. Right. That mother obviously wanted it so much that she tried to cast it away and drove herself insane. And pretty much led a much smaller blight than the ones the archdemon commands.

So what you've got is, limit darkspawn attacks en mass on the surface, risk hundreds of people's lives on the hope that darkspawn will want intelligence and not be like the mother. Again, as darkspawn are not intelligent before said ritual, it's impossible to ask them what they want.

But if the Architect had a more successful track record, I may be more willing to spare him, but it's very difficult to argue with results. And his results don't benefit anyone.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 mai 2011 - 04:11 .

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...
Why are all darkspawn and architects being painted with the same brush? Must we destroy them all just because some of them are bad?

Because, unlike the mages who are going to be executed in an act of genocide by the templars for an act they are not responsible for, the darkspawn literally destroy the world - their corruption transpires even with the seemingly altruistic Messenger, if he is spared and is rescuing people - as some of the people he rescues succumb to darkspawn disease as a result of their interaction.

We see how dangerous intelligent darkspawn are during the Blight - given the sneak attack at Ostagar, and fooling the troops of Redcliffe while the horde was heading to the capital of Denerim. When there isn't a Blight, darkspawn aren't being commanded by a superbly intelligent entity - the Archdemon - and aren't as dangerous since they lack the intellect they do during the Blights. Giving intelligent to the darkspawn when the Architect's people launched a sneak attack with the Witherend, and those who defected to the Mother created Broodmothers and attacked civilians, doesn't speak well for an alliance with the Architect or the prospects of helping him create more intelligent darkspawn.

Beerfish wrote...
There is no evidence at all that any darkspawn is actually bad or evil

You mean, besides the violation of women who become Broodmothers, the people who are eaten alive, the sneak attack on Vigil's Keep, the attempted abduction of Sigrun, the assault against Amarathine City and the attack against Vigil's Keep?

Beerfish wrote...
Genocide of a whole group just because of a few bad apples is a terrible thing, this we all know.

Genocide against mages for an act they are not responsible for can't be compared to a species that seeks to destroy all of humanity.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
Why are all darkspawn and architects being painted with the same brush? Must we destroy them all just because some of them are bad?

Because, unlike the mages who are going to be executed in an act of genocide by the templars for an act they are not responsible for, the darkspawn literally destroy the world - their corruption transpires even with the seemingly altruistic Messenger, if he is spared and is rescuing people - as some of the people he rescues succumb to darkspawn disease as a result of their interaction.

We see how dangerous intelligent darkspawn are during the Blight - given the sneak attack at Ostagar, and fooling the troops of Redcliffe while the horde was heading to the capital of Denerim. When there isn't a Blight, darkspawn aren't being commanded by a superbly intelligent entity - the Archdemon - and aren't as dangerous since they lack the intellect they do during the Blights. Giving intelligent to the darkspawn when the Architect's people launched a sneak attack with the Witherend, and those who defected to the Mother created Broodmothers and attacked civilians, doesn't speak well for an alliance with the Architect or the prospects of helping him create more intelligent darkspawn.

Beerfish wrote...
There is no evidence at all that any darkspawn is actually bad or evil

You mean, besides the violation of women who become Broodmothers, the people who are eaten alive, the sneak attack on Vigil's Keep, the attempted abduction of Sigrun, the assault against Amarathine City and the attack against Vigil's Keep?

Beerfish wrote...
Genocide of a whole group just because of a few bad apples is a terrible thing, this we all know.

Genocide against mages for an act they are not responsible for can't be compared to a species that seeks to destroy all of humanity.

In other words. You advocate genocide.

[LobselVith8]

Beerfish wrote...

Eh?  Why are you just limiting it to intelligent darkspawn?  We can't assume all darkspawn are evil killers just because 99 out of 100 are. 

Is this in reference to the mages again? How many threads are you going to persist in alluding to mages when mages aren't even the issue of discussion? You can't compare mages to a race of beings who actively seek to destroy sentient races and literally corrupt the world merely by their presence.

Beerfish wrote...

To kill them all when 1 might be a nice darkspawn is a terrible thing to do.  I hear in some foreign land somewhere they don't kill their dark spawn and things turn out just fine there.   

Another bad analogy to the mage argument. The Architect's original plan was a mass genocide that would leave some survivors as ghouls, his experimentation lead to the Fifth Blight, his intelligent darkspawn the Seeker had butchered the elves and framed the humans, the Withered lead a sneak attack against Vigil's Keep, and we know the Architect lied about living Grey Wardens because Keenan was found alive.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words. You advocate genocide.

I advocate protecting men, women, and children from being murdered. I advocate protecting the sentient races across the continent from extinction because the darkspawn actively seek to destroy all life in Thedas.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words. You advocate genocide.

I advocate protecting men, women, and children from being murdered. I advocate protecting the sentient races across the continent from extinction because the darkspawn actively seek to destroy all life in Thedas.

So you do advocate genocide. Good to know.

[moilami]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Darkspawn had sentience for 6months. In that time they managed to have a civil war. I'm guessing that the warlike nature of the Darkspawn, combined with their new found sentience, will just lead to the Darkspawn killing eachother more often than anybody else.

Lol I think this could be possible too. However they could eventually settle for great effort.

[moilami]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words. You advocate genocide.

I advocate protecting men, women, and children from being murdered. I advocate protecting the sentient races across the continent from extinction because the darkspawn actively seek to destroy all life in Thedas.

So you do advocate genocide. Good to know.

lol'd 

[Sylvianus]

The desire to destroy darkspawn in all Thedas is clearly genocide. But this is not evil. It is a fact. Do not feel guilty. It's normal to think that because they threaten humanity, they are also trying to corrupt and destroy it. I think that's the word genocide does not fit.

It is a very pejorative term inapropriate actually.

This word is commonplace for anything, today. People try to make people feel bad, and I think it's silly and largely irrelevant. Massacres there had in past, and there will in the future in the world of Thedas, it's common.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words. You advocate genocide.

I advocate protecting men, women, and children from being murdered. I advocate protecting the sentient races across the continent from extinction because the darkspawn actively seek to destroy all life in Thedas.

So you do advocate genocide. Good to know.

I advocate self-preservation for the sentient races of Thedas against extinction.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In other words. You advocate genocide.

I advocate protecting men, women, and children from being murdered. I advocate protecting the sentient races across the continent from extinction because the darkspawn actively seek to destroy all life in Thedas.

So you do advocate genocide. Good to know.

I advocate self-preservation for the sentient races of Thedas against extinction.

At the cost of an other race. Genocide. You advocate it. Good to know.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I advocate self-preservation for the sentient races of Thedas against extinction.

At the cost of an other race. Genocide. You advocate it. Good to know.

In terms of protecting the humans, elves, dwarves, and all the other sentient races from genocide, which the darkspawn are trying to commit as they violate women and eat people alive. You almost seem offended by the fact that I'd adovcate protecting women from being raped by darkspawn.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I advocate self-preservation for the sentient races of Thedas against extinction.

At the cost of an other race. Genocide. You advocate it. Good to know.

In terms of protecting the humans, elves, dwarves, and all the other sentient races from genocide, which the darkspawn are trying to commit as they violate women and eat people alive. You almost seem offended by the fact that I'd adovcate protecting women from being raped by darkspawn.

Not at all. I would slaughter all the Darkspawn in a heartbeat if it were up to me. They are a menace. I just find it peculiar that you are willing to eradicate a (potentially) sentient race, based on the simple threat they pose. You are quick to cry foul whenever anyone wants to kill mages for the threat they pose, but it is okay to kill Darkspawn based on the threat they pose?

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not at all. I would slaughter all the Darkspawn in a heartbeat if it were up to me. They are a menace. I just find it peculiar that you are willing to eradicate a (potentially) sentient race, based on the simple threat they pose. You are quick to cry foul whenever anyone wants to kill mages for the threat they pose, but it is okay to kill Darkspawn based on the threat they pose?

You can't compare the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle, who are factually innocent of the crime that Anders commits, to the known malice of the darkspawn who seek to violate women, eat people alive, and literally destroy the enviornment around them because they are diseased. The darkspawn actively are trying to destroy all life in Thedas, and this isn't true of the mages who Meredith wants to execute because of the action of one apostate who was never a member of the Kirkwall Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not at all. I would slaughter all the Darkspawn in a heartbeat if it were up to me. They are a menace. I just find it peculiar that you are willing to eradicate a (potentially) sentient race, based on the simple threat they pose. You are quick to cry foul whenever anyone wants to kill mages for the threat they pose, but it is okay to kill Darkspawn based on the threat they pose?

You can't compare the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle, who are factually innocent of the crime that Anders commits, to the known malice of the darkspawn who seek to violate women, eat people alive, and literally destroy the enviornment around them because they are diseased. The darkspawn actively are trying to destroy all life in Thedas, and this isn't true of the mages who Meredith wants to execute because of the action of one apostate who was never a member of the Kirkwall Circle.

Darkspawn aren't trying that at all. Only when they are under the influence of an Archdemon. When tehy aren't they are perfectly contend at annihilating the Dwarves.

And let us face it. It is not only in Kirkwall you take issue with the Right of Annulment.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not at all. I would slaughter all the Darkspawn in a heartbeat if it were up to me. They are a menace. I just find it peculiar that you are willing to eradicate a (potentially) sentient race, based on the simple threat they pose. You are quick to cry foul whenever anyone wants to kill mages for the threat they pose, but it is okay to kill Darkspawn based on the threat they pose?

You can't compare the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle, who are factually innocent of the crime that Anders commits, to the known malice of the darkspawn who seek to violate women, eat people alive, and literally destroy the enviornment around them because they are diseased. The darkspawn actively are trying to destroy all life in Thedas, and this isn't true of the mages who Meredith wants to execute because of the action of one apostate who was never a member of the Kirkwall Circle.

Darkspawn aren't trying that at all. Only when they are under the influence of an Archdemon. When tehy aren't they are perfectly contend at annihilating the Dwarves.

In other words, the darkspawn are committing genocide. And we see darkspawn on the surface even after the Blight is over.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And let us face it. It is not only in Kirkwall you take issue with the Right of Annulment.

I have no trust in a religious organization that preaches intolerance towards mages having absolute control over their lives.