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[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Not at all. I would slaughter all the Darkspawn in a heartbeat if it were up to me. They are a menace. I just find it peculiar that you are willing to eradicate a (potentially) sentient race, based on the simple threat they pose. You are quick to cry foul whenever anyone wants to kill mages for the threat they pose, but it is okay to kill Darkspawn based on the threat they pose?

You can't compare the men, women, and children of the Kirkwall Circle, who are factually innocent of the crime that Anders commits, to the known malice of the darkspawn who seek to violate women, eat people alive, and literally destroy the enviornment around them because they are diseased. The darkspawn actively are trying to destroy all life in Thedas, and this isn't true of the mages who Meredith wants to execute because of the action of one apostate who was never a member of the Kirkwall Circle.

Darkspawn aren't trying that at all. Only when they are under the influence of an Archdemon. When tehy aren't they are perfectly contend at annihilating the Dwarves.

In other words, the darkspawn are committing genocide. And we see darkspawn on the surface even after the Blight is over.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And let us face it. It is not only in Kirkwall you take issue with the Right of Annulment.

I have no trust in a religious organization that preaches intolerance towards mages having absolute control over their lives.

They do, or some of them do? You are quick to paint them all with the same brush. Something you are unwilling to do with the mages.

Whenever the Darkspawn truly unite, it is against their will. Something you disregard in your calling for counter-genocide.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They do, or some of them do? You are quick to paint them all with the same brush. Something you are unwilling to do with the mages.

Whenever the Darkspawn truly unite, it is against their will. Something you disregard in your calling for counter-genocide.

The darkspawn violate women, eat people alive, and kill the sentient races they encounter. Their presence is also a corruption on the land. It's not an issue of "some" of them. Even the intelligent darkspawn working for the Mother created Broodmothers at Kal'Hirol, and the darkspawn working for the Architect - the Withered and the Seeker - killed people without provocation. The Withered launched a sneak attack against Vigil's Keep and the Seeker had killed elves and framed humans for the deed to incite Velanna to seek vengence for their deaths.

[EmperorSahlertz]

And yet the Messenger never tried to kill anyone, and any corruption he spread weren't intentional. Yet still you paint all (sentient)Darkspawn with the same brush, and cry foul when people do the same with mages.
If killing Darkspawn for the threat they pose is okay, then it is also okay to kill Mages for the threat they pose. Both threats are genuine, both threats are dire, so why is it wrong to kill a mage, bt okay to kill a Darkspawn? Because they are threats. That is why.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yet the Messenger never tried to kill anyone, and any corruption he spread weren't intentional. Yet still you paint all (sentient)Darkspawn with the same brush, and cry foul when people do the same with mages.

I address that sparing the Architect and aiding him could lead to more darkspawn like the First and the Withered, and could codemn all of the sentient races to genocide by enabing intelligence in a dangerous species that has sought to obliterate for a milennia. The mages don't eat people alive as substance and they don't procreate by violating women, so the comparison remains as ill advised to make as the first time you brought it up.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If killing Darkspawn for the threat they pose is okay, then it is also okay to kill Mages for the threat they pose.

You mean the mages who saved the Andrastian nations from the Qunari?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Both threats are genuine, both threats are dire, so why is it wrong to kill a mage, bt okay to kill a Darkspawn? Because they are threats. That is why.

Considering that, in asking this question, you're ignoring every issue I brought up over the course of two pages to continue to make another pro-templar, anti-mage analogy, it's because the darkspawn violate women, eat people alive, and seek to destroy all life on Thedas, while the mages are under subjugation to an anti-mage religious organization. Many mages want freedom from the Chantry and the templars, while the darkspawn want to destroy all life on Thedas. Since there's already a thread focused on discussing the issues between the templars and the mages, I don't see a point in you continuing to bring them up.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You didn't bring up any issues. You made a list of reasons for why you wish to exterminate the Darkspawn. That's about it.

You completely neglect that more disciples could also mean more Darkspawn like the Messenger. You also forget that in the short amount of time they've had sentience, the Darkspawn have already had a civil war. I highly doubt that intellegent Darkspawn are going to be any better at uniting, than humans are. The Darkspawn will fight amongst themselves alot more with intellegence than without.

And yes, I mean those mages exactly. Or do you think that just because they showed the world how dangerous they are, against the Qunari, that it absolves the threat they always pose, or something?

[HSHAW]

dragonflight288 wrote...

So people kill the Architect and his disciples for reasons they are trying to fix?
That makes no sense.

Yes, until now they can only reproduce through rape, yes they are poisoning their enviroment, but if you kill them, this will always be the cause.

If you let them live, then maybe someday there will be a cure.

---

That's a big 'if''. The Architect wants to save his people from their corruption. Or their reliance on Archdemons. No one's arguing that. I don't doubt his intentions. I doubt his track record and how all his experiments kind of blow up around him.

1. Experimenting on an Archdemon and starting a blight. Hundreds, maybe thousands of people die trying to stop it.

2. Seeking to turn all of Thedas into ghouls in order to bring about a peace between the darkspawn and every other race. Essentially committing genocide against everyone but his race.

3. His ritual to make Darkspawn intelligent. Right. That mother obviously wanted it so much that she tried to cast it away and drove herself insane. And pretty much led a much smaller blight than the ones the archdemon commands.

So what you've got is, limit darkspawn attacks en mass on the surface, risk hundreds of people's lives on the hope that darkspawn will want intelligence and not be like the mother. Again, as darkspawn are not intelligent before said ritual, it's impossible to ask them what they want.

But if the Architect had a more successful track record, I may be more willing to spare him, but it's very difficult to argue with results. And his results don't benefit anyone.

To be fair, the Mother was probably driven insane beforehand by being turned into a Broodmother.

[dragonflight288]

*sigh* This thread isn't about the templars (who the chantry controls through their lyrium addiction, don't forget that people) and the mages. It's about the architect and the darkspawn. Let's leave the mage/templar bashing for other threads.

The way I see it, I'll just kill every darkspawn that comes near the surface or any of the races. Even without intelligence, darkspawn are actively seeking genocide. They're just more stupid doing that. Look at the dwarves of Orzammar. They are fighting a losing battle (let's not get into dwarven traditions as many of them are keeping the dwarves from victory). The darkspawn continually attack the surface in raids in order to make more broodmothers.

If you want to keep your wives or sisters from being raped by darkspawn, the land from being sickened and the animals blighted. If you want to prevent the creation of ghouls and losing sanity, there is only one logical conclusion. Every darkspawn corrupts, every darkspawn destroys. They may not intend it, but all of them do. There is no exception.

EDIT (added to prevent a double post)

As for the Mother....I honestly can't say what she may have been like before becoming a broodmother. What I do know is that she laments losing the song and desperately wants to end the silence.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 mai 2011 - 09:37 .

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You didn't bring up any issues. You made a list of reasons for why you wish to exterminate the Darkspawn. That's about it.

The darkspawn procreating through the violation of women in Kal'Hirol, the Architect lying about the Withered and the Grey Wardens all being dead in the Silverite Mine, and all but one of the intelligent darkspawn killing people of their own volition aren't reasons to distrust the Architect's goals?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You completely neglect that more disciples could also mean more Darkspawn like the Messenger.

I addressed that the Messenger gives people darkspawn disease even as he helps people. We see the results when Aveline has to kill Wesley because he was corrupted.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You also forget that in the short amount of time they've had sentience, the Darkspawn have already had a civil war. I highly doubt that intellegent Darkspawn are going to be any better at uniting, than humans are. The Darkspawn will fight amongst themselves alot more with intellegence than without.

You forget that when they had sentience, they attacked Amaranthine City and Vigil's Keep.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And yes, I mean those mages exactly. Or do you think that just because they showed the world how dangerous they are, against the Qunari, that it absolves the threat they always pose, or something?

The mages saved the Andrastian nations from the Qunari through their magic, and they are instrumental in creating new Wardens through The Joining, an order of people who save the world from genocide at the hands of the darkspawn. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You didn't bring up any issues. You made a list of reasons for why you wish to exterminate the Darkspawn. That's about it.

The darkspawn procreating through the violation of women in Kal'Hirol, the Architect lying about the Withered and the Grey Wardens all being dead in the Silverite Mine, and all but one of the intelligent darkspawn killing people of their own volition aren't reasons to distrust the Architect's goals?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You completely neglect that more disciples could also mean more Darkspawn like the Messenger.

I addressed that the Messenger gives people darkspawn disease even as he helps people. We see the results when Aveline has to kill Wesley because he was corrupted.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You also forget that in the short amount of time they've had sentience, the Darkspawn have already had a civil war. I highly doubt that intellegent Darkspawn are going to be any better at uniting, than humans are. The Darkspawn will fight amongst themselves alot more with intellegence than without.

You forget that when they had sentience, they attacked Amaranthine City and Vigil's Keep.

So all of these things warrants for the total extermination of an entire race? Not that I disagree. I would eradicate them for a lot less.

And what does it matter they attack Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep? Do you thik they would have been any less dangerous if it was a Blight which directed them to do so? Even then, it wasn't all the sentient Darkspawn which attacked, it was a faction of them. The other faction warned you about the plot of the Mother.
So far we got no indication that any of the Sentient Darkspawn have any real desire to be on the surface, quite the contrary actually. On the other hand, the Darkspawn lacking sentience, are forced to the surface every few hundred years.
I'd rather have the Darkspawn be sentient and kill eachother, than live underground, multiply and launch a surprise attack at a random location on the surface every few hundred years.

[dragonflight288]

....what exactly is your point? I seem to have missed it. You seem to be arguing for helping darkspawn then admit to agreeing to wiping them out. Then you have this habit of changing the topic just slightly midstream. I kind of lost the point you're trying to make.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So all of these things warrants for the total extermination of an entire race? Not that I disagree. I would eradicate them for a lot less.

The darkspawn are going to destroy all the sentient races otherwise. There should be a coalition of mages, templars, and soldiers aiding the Wardens in fighting the darkspawn in the Deep Roads, since the darkspawn forces have taken over the fallen dwarven kingdoms, which span the continent of Thedas, and are inevitably going to threaten the world when they encounter the next Old God.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And what does it matter they attack Amaranthine and Vigil's Keep? Do you thik they would have been any less dangerous if it was a Blight which directed them to do so? Even then, it wasn't all the sentient Darkspawn which attacked, it was a faction of them. The other faction warned you about the plot of the Mother.

It matters because it demonstrates that the intelligent darkspawn aren't all passive, now that they possess sentience. The Architect's Withered assaulted Vigil's Keep through a sneak attack while the Mother's forces attacked Amaranthine City and Vigil's Keep. We know the Seeker murdered the elves and framed the humans. Honestly, I don't see a reason to risk the fate of all the sentient races on Thedas by enabling the Architect's research.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So far we got no indication that any of the Sentient Darkspawn have any real desire to be on the surface, quite the contrary actually. On the other hand, the Darkspawn lacking sentience, are forced to the surface every few hundred years.

The darkspawn are searching for an Old God, who becomes corrupted by darkspawn and seeks to attack and destroy humanity on the surface. There are darkspawn on the surface attacking humans even when there isn't a Blight, which is why some assume the beginning of the Fifth Blight was just a large raiding party.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I'd rather have the Darkspawn be sentient and kill eachother, than live underground, multiply and launch a surprise attack at a random location on the surface every few hundred years.

I'd rather see the darkspawn were destroyed than risk threatening the lives of every person in Thedas on the surface into intelligent darkspawn who might kidnap women to create more Broodmothers (like the Mother's darkspawn were doing, and tried to do to Sigrun) and giving darkspawn the kind of intelligence that makes them dangerous during a time of Blight. Also, I don't see the point in risking the lives of the people the Wardens are sworn to protect by endorsing the research of an intelligent darkspawn who once thought it was a good idea to turn all the sentient races of the surface into ghouls, and whose scientific attempts lead to the Fifth Blight.

[HSHAW]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It matters because it demonstrates that the intelligent darkspawn aren't all passive, now that they possess sentience. The Architect's Withered assaulted Vigil's Keep through a sneak attack while the Mother's forces attacked Amaranthine City and Vigil's Keep. We know the Seeker murdered the elves and framed the humans. Honestly, I don't see a reason to risk the fate of all the sentient races on Thedas by enabling the Architect's research.

.

The Architect's research happens anyway, the Disciples still exist even if you kill the Architect.

[LobselVith8]

HSHAW wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It matters because it demonstrates that the intelligent darkspawn aren't all passive, now that they possess sentience. The Architect's Withered assaulted Vigil's Keep through a sneak attack while the Mother's forces attacked Amaranthine City and Vigil's Keep. We know the Seeker murdered the elves and framed the humans. Honestly, I don't see a reason to risk the fate of all the sentient races on Thedas by enabling the Architect's research.

The Architect's research happens anyway, the Disciples still exist even if you kill the Architect.

The Disciples live, but there's no telling they are capable of continuing his research.

[dragonflight288]

They may, they may not. Don't have enough data. must track them down to be sure, and cut their heads off to be thorough.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They do, or some of them do? You are quick to paint them all with the same brush. Something you are unwilling to do with the mages.

Whenever the Darkspawn truly unite, it is against their will. Something you disregard in your calling for counter-genocide.

The darkspawn violate women, eat people alive, and kill the sentient races they encounter. Their presence is also a corruption on the land. It's not an issue of "some" of them. Even the intelligent darkspawn working for the Mother created Broodmothers at Kal'Hirol, and the darkspawn working for the Architect - the Withered and the Seeker - killed people without provocation. The Withered launched a sneak attack against Vigil's Keep and the Seeker had killed elves and framed humans for the deed to incite Velanna to seek vengence for their deaths.

Actually, the Architect tells you that the attack on the Vigil was a mistake - it was meant to be a peaceful meeting.

Now, to get away from the mage/templar aspect of this (a lot of similarities, but that's not for this thread) and look at the Architect himself:

1.  He made The Mother sentient - against her will, apparently.  Making her go nuts.  Giving free will and the ability to reason to people who don't want it . .  .well, forcing something on them is forcing it on them, whether you think it's good for them or not.

2.  Making Darkspawn intelligent means any interested in continuing their slaughter now have the ability to think, plan and reason.  Makes them more dangerous.  Not good, especially when you're one of the ones they want to slaughter.

3.  The Architect himself couldn't control his Disciples - the attack on Vigil's Keep, even if planned as peaceful, wasn't received that way.  It became a slaughter, because the Disciple there couldn't control himself.

4.  The Architect attacks, kidnaps, and expreriments on the Warden, rather than talk.  Showing me that his peaceful solution talk is just talk.

Bottom line - there may be a noble purpose in what he wants.  But someone with a noble purpose, who pursues it in the worst way possible, doesn't get a pass.  When that noble purpose is speculative, at best, and may not even be well received by his own people - he gets less of a pass.

[The Baconer]

TJPags wrote...
 But someone with a noble purpose, who pursues it in the worst way possible, doesn't get a pass.  When that noble purpose is speculative, at best, and may not even be well received by his own people - he gets less of a pass.

Indeed, a very fitting allusion.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Actually, the Architect tells you that the attack on the Vigil was a mistake - it was meant to be a peaceful meeting.

That's what the Architect claims, but it means ignoring that The Withered came to Vigil's Keep underground with a small army. It's also worth noting that his claim that all the Wardens were dead is another lie since The Warden knows that Keenan was alive, with both his legs smashed. I don't trust the Architect.

[Apathy1989]

TJPags wrote...

1.  He made The Mother sentient - against her will, apparently.  Making her go nuts.  Giving free will and the ability to reason to people who don't want it . .  .well, forcing something on them is forcing it on them, whether you think it's good for them or not.

Without sentience, the mother had no will and could not have said she didn't want to be made so. I don't think its the artictects fault there.

However, I agree with most points. Even in their intelligent state, darkspawn are disgusting, violent and dangerous. I've always killed the arcitect, and the fate should face all darkspawn. There are only what? 3 more old gods to lead the darkspawn? After that we should have peace.

[TJPags]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Actually, the Architect tells you that the attack on the Vigil was a mistake - it was meant to be a peaceful meeting.

That's what the Architect claims, but it means ignoring that The Withered came to Vigil's Keep underground with a small army. It's also worth noting that his claim that all the Wardens were dead is another lie since The Warden knows that Keenan was alive, with both his legs smashed. I don't trust the Architect.

Was he supposed to go alone?  A talking Darkspawn walking up to a keep filled with soldiers and Grey Wardens?  A few months after a Blight?

I don't fault the stealth, so much, I certainly don't fault the group.  I fault the approach in general, which clearly could have been better.  More, I fault the reaction - instead of retreating, they attacked.  Quite successfuly, btw, showing their continuing danger.  Perhaps more dangerous with intelligence leading them.

In short, the Architect is short sighted.  He has grand ideas, but little common sense.

And no, I don't trust him either, for those and several other reasons.  It could be argued he's naive, not malicious.  Might make a difference for some people, but not for me.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Actually, the Architect tells you that the attack on the Vigil was a mistake - it was meant to be a peaceful meeting.

That's what the Architect claims, but it means ignoring that The Withered came to Vigil's Keep underground with a small army. It's also worth noting that his claim that all the Wardens were dead is another lie since The Warden knows that Keenan was alive, with both his legs smashed. I don't trust the Architect.

Also, pretty much everything in the mines.  The elf who frees the Warden later shows up at the Architect's side smiling like their plan has all gone according to schedule.  The whole thing was a setup, and they proceed to watch the wardens have to fend off two dragons at once.  As soon as the wardens win, the Architect and his ghouled up indoctrinated followers leave and magically block the path behind them.

And we're supposed to trust this freak because when he needs our help he says he has noble goals?  Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with "no."

[Foolsfolly]

Was he supposed to go alone? A talking Darkspawn walking up to a keep filled with soldiers and Grey Wardens? A few months after a Blight?

Send a note to the Commander of the Grey telling him to meet a representative of his at some nice neutral place, an abandoned farmstead or something. Then the Warden-Commander shows up, meets a talking Darkspawn and Holy crap it's a talking Darkspawn!

Launching a sneak attack on the Keep, slaughtering everything that moves and taking the highest ranking person there hostage is not a peaceful attempt at dialogue.

And now to echo other people: Giving intelligence to the darkspawn is not a good idea. They must rape, kidnap, and corrupt to exist. There is no other way for them to exist. They have no gender (or are all male) and must find and Broodmother a female of another race to procreate. This is a fact. Their mere existence kills.

The Architect's plan is to ghoulify the entirety of Thedas so there'd be no racial tensions. This shows the Architect's insanity. He honestly believes driving all of Thedas mad will ensure no further fighting when the Mother stands as perfectly clear proof that there will always be war. All ghoulifying Thedas will do wipe out all races in Thedas except for the Darkspawn.

I'd be against this plan if it were humans, elves, qunari, or dwarves. I will not support the destruction of all other races for the benefit of one. But at least I know the other races aren't a contagious horde of rape and murder.

To defend the Architect shows either your lack of understanding of the Darkspawn or your love of playing Devil's advocate.

No good can come from them having intelligence. They are not rachni or geth. They have no peaceful way to co-exist. The darkspawn are a plague waiting for a vaccine to wipe them out.

[LobselVith8]

TJPags wrote...

Was he supposed to go alone?  A talking Darkspawn walking up to a keep filled with soldiers and Grey Wardens?  A few months after a Blight?

You mean, like the Messenger was sent alone? Yes, that's exactly what should have happened. Better yet, if that was a concern, maybe the Architect should have sent Armaas to negotiate a truce and an alliance, as opposed to an armed darkspawn army.

TJPags wrote...

I don't fault the stealth, so much, I certainly don't fault the group.  I fault the approach in general, which clearly could have been better.  More, I fault the reaction - instead of retreating, they attacked.  Quite successfuly, btw, showing their continuing danger.  Perhaps more dangerous with intelligence leading them.

We encounter the Withered kicking a soldier off the roof for no reason. I don't think his motives were altruistic, so either the Architect lied, or the Withered decided to attack of his own accord. Given that we find Keenan alive (despite the Architect's claims that all the Wardens were dead) and both his legs were broken by a darkspawn who smashed them and stole his ring, I don't trust the Architect to be truthful.

TJPags wrote...

In short, the Architect is short sighted.  He has grand ideas, but little common sense.

And no, I don't trust him either, for those and several other reasons.  It could be argued he's naive, not malicious.  Might make a difference for some people, but not for me.

That's why I don't spare the Architect, and I'm waiting for the patch to rectify the bug with Nathaniel.

[Xilizhra]

Emperor, are you actually on the Architect's side, or are you just trolling mage supporters?

For the record, I do agree with much of what you say this time.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I respect the Architect and his goals. However, the Darkspawn will always be a competitor to the humans. To have two alpha-predators vying for the same territory is never going to end well, no matter what. So he is an enemy which I can respect for having a noble agenda, but he will always be my enemy.

[Xilizhra]

Humans, elves, dwarves and kossith are all alpha predators as well. Sapient ones, generally, can come to some sort of understanding with one another.