338 réponses à ce sujet

[Darc_Requiem]

astrallite wrote...

Need to be able to go into battle like this

If Lady Hawke was equal in strength to Superman, I wouldn't mind her having Bikini Armor.

[the_one_54321]

Ambiva wrote...
Just shows, females do not need to wear revealing clothes to look good.

Agree.

Ambiva wrote...
In fact, generally I'd say its a better idea not to.

Disagree.

Ambiva wrote...
Sadly, generally men respect women who were revealing clothes less than women who don't.

Disagree with generalizing "men."

[Ambiva]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ambiva wrote...
Just shows, females do not need to wear revealing clothes to look good.

Agree.

Ambiva wrote...
In fact, generally I'd say its a better idea not to.

Disagree.

Ambiva wrote...
Sadly, generally men respect women who were revealing clothes less than women who don't.

Disagree with generalizing "men."

We can all disagree with generalisations. They're generalisations. And the other one...well that unfortunately hangs upon the generalisation, if the generalisation is not correct, then that is not. Personally, my generalisation is something considered as a generalisation, I do not agree with it, because I cannot prove it. I can merely suggest my experience.

Modifié par Ambiva, 18 mai 2011 - 10:39 .

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Nothing in reality has anything to do with what is in the game. There is no such thing as realism in games.

Not so.  Even in "fairy land," there are internal rules and you stick by them.  For low fantasy, a certain amount of realism is expected.  Dragon Age is not really low fantasy and so yes, a wizard can do it.  However the further along you go on that spectrum, the more cartoonish/ silly it gets.

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Nothing in reality has anything to do with what is in the game. There is no such thing as realism in games.

Not so.  Even in "fairy land," there are internal rules and you stick by them.  For low fantasy, a certain amount of realism is expected.  Dragon Age is not really low fantasy and so yes, a wizard can do it.  However the further along you go on that spectrum, the more cartoonish/ silly it gets.

That's not realism, that is degree of believability. Which actually comes from internal consistancy. Which I posted about well before what you quoted above.

And as far as "cartoonish and silly" goes, that's actually unrelated to believability. It's purely a function of personal preference. People who like that style will accept it and believe it without trouble. Those that do not, will not.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 18 mai 2011 - 10:48 .

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Nothing in reality has anything to do with what is in the game. There is no such thing as realism in games.

Not so.  Even in "fairy land," there are internal rules and you stick by them.  For low fantasy, a certain amount of realism is expected.  Dragon Age is not really low fantasy and so yes, a wizard can do it.  However the further along you go on that spectrum, the more cartoonish/ silly it gets.

That's not realism, that is degree of believability. Which actually comes from internal consistancy. Which I posted about well before what you quoted above.

I was responding to your absolute declaration that "there is no such thing as realism in games."  If one rule of the world is that it's a low fantasy realm, or hews in that direction at least, then one of its rules is that you stick close to realism and limit the amount of hokey you allow in.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mai 2011 - 10:50 .

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
I was responding to your absolute declaration that "there is no such thing as realism in games."  If one rule of the world is that it's a low fantasy realm, or hews in that direction at least, then one of its rules is that you stick close to realism and limit the amount of hokey you allow in.

There's no actual realism. Gravity? Subjective. In the Fade it doesn't work the same. Conservation of energy? Negated by magic. Fire and ice magic create or remove energy from nothing.

And that's just in this game. Other games violate reality in countless other ways. There's nothing remotely realistic about any game, ever. There is only the illusion of realism that comes from visuals that correspond to what we see in real life, like walking/running/jumping, the motion of water, the placement of plants buildings and other objects. These approaches provide visual queues that cause the player to believe in the setting because it visually resembles reality. But any rule at any time can be broken or bent. And often they are.

Internal consistency helps to cover over this variability of rules. Magic always works the same way. Gravity functions as it should except in the Fade. And so on.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 18 mai 2011 - 10:57 .

[Addai]

...and that is realism, as it applies to entertainment and literature. You're describing it, then saying it doesn't exist. And you *cannot* break any rule at any time. The minute your audience says "I call BS," especially if it's not for an important reason, the jig is up. So realism is an important aspect even of fantasy, especially those types of fantasy that purport to be gritty.

[the_one_54321]

But any rule can be broken at any time. It's just up to the game developers as to whether or not they get broken. The suspension of disbelief is not a function of how realistic or unrealistic something is. It's a function of presentation.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I, for one, think that women look great in full plate. You just gotta wear it with personality baby, own that steel shell, own it! *snaps fingers in a Z shape*

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

But any rule can be broken at any time. It's just up to the game developers as to whether or not they get broken. The suspension of disbelief is not a function of how realistic or unrealistic something is. It's a function of presentation.

That's lawyerly.  You can only break so many rules, so many times, even for important reasons, before the story starts resembling cheese whiz and viewers/ readers lose faith.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 mai 2011 - 12:57 .

[astrallite]

Darc_Requiem wrote...

astrallite wrote...

Need to be able to go into battle like this

If Lady Hawke was equal in strength to Superman, I wouldn't mind her having Bikini Armor.

By Lady Hawke's panties! If she was that strong people would be saying "Andraste who?"

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Simulation is the intent, and simulation is the end product. What you get is in some ways similar to reality, but is not at all the same as reality.

There's limits to how well things can be simulated, granted. But it doesn't mean the underlying intent behind the simulation (in this case, increase of armour attribute reflecting the protection as result of covering the important parts) doesn't exist. It does, and ignoring it can easily lead to the game seem internally inconsistent, because it appears to throw its own rules out of window.

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

There's no actual realism. Gravity? Subjective. In the Fade it doesn't work the same.

Characters move in the Fade exactly like they move in the normal realm, and they still stick to the ground.

Conservation of energy? Negated by magic. Fire and ice magic create or remove energy from nothing.

Magic is fuelled either by mage's own vital power, by power contained by lyrium or by power supposedly carried by the blood. That's why powerful spells take many mages and/or tons of lyrium and/or many sacrificed slaves to accomplish -- you still need to put lot of actual energy in to get something out.

Modifié par tmp7704, 19 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[Akka le Vil]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Nothing in reality has anything to do with what is in the game. There is no such thing as realism in games.

Actually yes there is, but considering you use a ridiculous "reasoning" that basically allows anything and everything (which means that it's both totally useless and not a reasoning at all), I guess you can continue with your circular lack of logic all year long.

[Haexpane]

So to sum up

There is nothing wrong with skimpy outfits if a fictional female character chooses to wear them.
There is nothing wrong with modest outfits if a fictional female character chooses to wear them.

Christian Audigier shirts are disgusting.
A chain mail bikini is the opposite of disgusting

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
But any rule can be broken at any time. It's just up to the game developers as to whether or not they get broken. The suspension of disbelief is not a function of how realistic or unrealistic something is. It's a function of presentation.

That's lawyerly.You can only break so many rules, so many times, even for important reasons, before the story starts resembling cheese whiz and viewers/ readers lose faith.

Technicalities rule the world. Also, there is no specific number, there is no threshold that one cannot cross, that will cause fans to loose faith. Every person has their own personal preference for a level of realistic portrayal. For the fans that hate "cartoony" art there are fans that love cartoony art. For the fans that love oversized visually dramatic weaponry there are fans that want "realistic" sized weapons. The applicability to real life does not dictate reception.

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Simulation is the intent, and simulation is the end product. What you get is in some ways similar to reality, but is not at all the same as reality.

There's limits to how well things can be simulated, granted. But it doesn't mean the underlying intent behind the simulation (in this case, increase of armour attribute reflecting the protection as result of covering the important parts) doesn't exist. It does, and ignoring it can easily lead to the game seem internally inconsistent, because it appears to throw its own rules out of window.

If something does lead to internal inconsistency then you have a problem because even those that do not have a problem with the presentation are faced with a concept that directly contradicts itself. However, in a world where armor is often magical, there is no strict reason to say "armor only protects when it covers the body." Armor is magic, and armor protects the body can together be consistent with armor protects the body without covering the body. There is no unavoidable reason why this cannot be so.

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
There's no actual realism. Gravity? Subjective. In the Fade it doesn't work the same.

Characters move in the Fade exactly like they move in the normal realm, and they still stick to the ground.

Conservation of energy? Negated by magic. Fire and ice magic create or remove energy from nothing.

Magic
is fuelled either by mage's own vital power, by power contained by
lyrium or by power supposedly carried by the blood. That's why powerful
spells take many mages and/or tons of lyrium and/or many sacrificed
slaves to accomplish -- you still need to put lot of actual energy in to
get something out.

In the Fade the player character continues to behave mostly along the same rules as before. However, suddenly the player can change into other bodies that obey different rules. Also, the environment does not obey any of the usual rules any longer.

Even with magic "sourcing" its power from somewhere the rules of physics and thermodynamics are still either violated or unexplained. The different spells cause a myriad of different effects that cannot all be explained by "the energy comes from [blank]." Heck, the cold element spells don't even produce energy, they take it away.

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

If something does lead to internal inconsistency then you have a problem because even those that do not have a problem with the presentation are faced with a concept that directly contradicts itself. However, in a world where armor is often magical, there is no strict reason to say "armor only protects when it covers the body." Armor is magic, and armor protects the body can together be consistent with armor protects the body without covering the body. There is no unavoidable reason why this cannot be so.

This doesn't quite work when the game points out specific pieces of armour which do have some sort of magical enchantment on them. When such instances are highlighted as something special, then apparently regular armour isn't magical and this excuse doesn't apply to it.

In the Fade the player character continues to behave mostly along the same rules as before. However, suddenly the player can change into other bodies that obey different rules. Also, the environment does not obey any of the usual rules any longer.

Yes, but this comes with the explanation how the rules of that particular world work, instead. The game doesn't actually break its rules in any manner by introducing a different realm which follows different mechanics. So i'm not sure how this supports your point how there's "no realism".

Even with magic "sourcing" its power from somewhere the rules of physics and thermodynamics are still either violated or unexplained.

We don't have any actual rules how the magic is supposed to affect and interact with thermodynamics and/or physics, that i'm aware of. So no, what the game shows doesn't break anything in this regard.

That's a technicality, granted. But since you said technicalities rule the world...

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
If something does lead to internal inconsistency then you have a problem because even those that do not have a problem with the presentation are faced with a concept that directly contradicts itself. However, in a world where armor is often magical, there is no strict reason to say "armor only protects when it covers the body." Armor is magic, and armor protects the body can together be consistent with armor protects the body without covering the body. There is no unavoidable reason why this cannot be so.

This doesn't quite work when the game points out specific pieces of armour which do have some sort of magical enchantment on them. When such instances are highlighted as something special, then apparently regular armour isn't magical and this excuse doesn't apply to it.

In the Fade the player character continues to behave mostly along the same rules as before. However, suddenly the player can change into other bodies that obey different rules. Also, the environment does not obey any of the usual rules any longer.

Yes, but this comes with the explanation how the rules of that particular world work, instead. The game doesn't actually break its rules in any manner by introducing a different realm which follows different mechanics. So i'm not sure how this supports your point how there's "no realism".

Even with magic "sourcing" its power from somewhere the rules of physics and thermodynamics are still either violated or unexplained.

We don't have any actual rules how the magic is supposed to affect and interact with thermodynamics and/or physics, that i'm aware of. So no, what the game shows doesn't break anything in this regard.

That's a technicality, granted. But since you said technicalities rule the world...

So long as the game isn't breaking its own rules it's not a problem. When I say that game breaks rules I mean that it breaks or changes the rules of reality. There is no Fade in real life, and though there are ways to reproduce the effects of a number of the spells in the game they do not use the interactions explained in the game. Internal consistency matters. Everything else is up for grabs.

In the end, the game's internal mechanics are not realistic, even if they are intended to simulate realism. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 19 mai 2011 - 10:08 .

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In the end, the game's internal mechanics are not realistic, even if they are intended to simulate realism. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I'd look at it this way -- when the mechanics are intended to simulate the realism, then if there's instances where such simulation doesn't hold up there should be some sort of explanation of why things work different out of sudden. If such explanation is given and it makes some basic sense, then fine. Without it, the game risks being viewed as internally inconsistent.

So, dragging it back kicking and screaming onto the topic, if the women are supposed to run around in fight half-naked while the men don't, i'd expect a reasonable explanation for that. And no, the "it's so men totally just stare at it and forget about fighting" isn't one.

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'd look at it this way -- when the mechanics are intended to simulate the realism, then if there's instances where such simulation doesn't hold up there should be some sort of explanation of why things work different out of sudden. If such explanation is given and it makes some basic sense, then fine. Without it, the game risks being viewed as internally inconsistent.

But see that is your personal preference for the presentation. There's also lots of fans that love to see unreasonably large swords. And there is no real reason inside the game for that to work out. The game continues to follow its own rules though. The same thing goes for the ridiculously small outfits.

[SheilaD67]

Honestly, I like the rogue and mage armor provided by the new DLCs. And the champion armor is great. I'd rather have my gal covered and ready for battle and be protected (I always hated the Dalish armor in DA:O which exposed the midriff for any arrow or blade to cut into). The 'not even there' style of armor you see too often in fantasy for women is just stating that they expect women to remain out of battle, mere eye candy for the men, and 'leave the fighting to the men, we'll protect you'.

The armor I really like - Aveline's. The 'cut' of it, really. It covers her, leaves no doubt that this is a woman to be respected, but it's obvious there is a feminine form beneath it.

[Mwah]

tmp7704 wrote...
So, dragging it back kicking and screaming onto the topic, if the women are supposed to run around in fight half-naked while the men don't, i'd expect a reasonable explanation for that. And no, the "it's so men totally just stare at it and forget about fighting" isn't one.

I would love to see more half-naked men in these games, ala Conan... leather pants, bare chest, yes please.  But I like a little eye candy.   The thing is, people tend to pick and choose how much, and what kind of, realism they are willing to accept in a game.  It's personal taste. 

To me, this is a fantasy game.   My imagination will provide an acceptable reason for why my female warrior can run around not covered from head to toe in a sardine can and still get the job done.  I don't need strict realism.  In fact, if I was looking for that, I think I would be sorely disappointed by this game.  There are a lot of unrealistic things that happen, but most of us are willing to accept them. 

All I can say is thank god for the modders.  Thanks to them, each of us can have our little slice of cake and eat it too. 

Modifié par Mwah, 19 mai 2011 - 11:04 .

[Blue Face Beast]

Eva Galana wrote...

Honestly, I like the rogue and mage armor provided by the new DLCs. And the champion armor is great. I'd rather have my gal covered and ready for battle and be protected (I always hated the Dalish armor in DA:O which exposed the midriff for any arrow or blade to cut into). The 'not even there' style of armor you see too often in fantasy for women is just stating that they expect women to remain out of battle, mere eye candy for the men, and 'leave the fighting to the men, we'll protect you'.

The armor I really like - Aveline's. The 'cut' of it, really. It covers her, leaves no doubt that this is a woman to be respected, but it's obvious there is a feminine form beneath it.

My bad.. If you say so...

Personnaly i find absolutely nothing feminine about Aveline. She coudl be a guy and a would not make the difference. She is one of the ugliest char of DA2 imho. I hate her face with a passion. I do not like her voice much either. I would take a Leliana anytime over an Aveline. Leliana clearly looks like a woman.

Isabella.. Now that is quite a body... Too bad i do not like her face much either... But again, most faces in DA2 were kinda poorly done. I really prefered DAO style, the eyes were looking better too.