15 réponses à ce sujet

[pedal2metal]

Does the +% Power Damage bonus apply to all powers that are active?  Essentially does it act like a passive bonus to all active powers?  My best interpretation of the ME2 gameplay data thread is the answer is yes.
Can anyone confirm this?  If this is true, this is one of the best bonuses in the game & would make the Blood Dragon Armor almost always attractive (I already use it for all power-user classes:  Engineer, Adept, Sentinel).

For example, I have an Infiltrator using Assassin Cloak w/Tungsten Ammo wearing the Blood Dragon Armor.  Does it get +15% to Assassin Cloak power (so +90% damage total) & +15% to Tungsten Ammo effect (so +85% damage on armor/health)?

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

[kstarler]

There's actually a sticky at the top of this forum for Gameplay data that I believe covers your question. You can find it at http://social.biowar.../index/1143264.

[Bozorgmehr]

Yes, +Power Damage adds to the total power damage. This sounds really good, but in-game it almost count for nothing. All passives and equipment bonuses are close to meaningless - a shame really - I recommend to ignore em and wear armor you think looks great. Personally I dislike the way BDA looks, but if you like it, go for it.

[pedal2metal]

Yep, that's the ME2 gameplay data thread I referred to. My interpretation to the question was the answer is "yes" which means the +x% gets applied to any & all active powers, but not passive powers. So in the specific case I've mentioned, it turns out to be essentially +30% damage since 2 powers are active. Pretty sweet! However, on the outside chance I misinterpreted the information, I figured it would be good to get some independent confirmation from those more familiar with the details. If my interpretation is correct, it would appear that the Blood Dragon Armor would be an excellent choice for the Infiltrator as it could get essentially an additional +30% when doing cloaked shooting w/active Ammo power, while the other combat classes would only get +15% for the Ammo power since Adrenaline Rush isn't combined with any other bonuses (per sticky thread) & Vanguard Charge doesn't have any damage bonus.

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 18 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[pedal2metal]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yes, +Power Damage adds to the total power damage. This sounds really good, but in-game it almost count for nothing. All passives and equipment bonuses are close to meaningless - a shame really - I recommend to ignore em and wear armor you think looks great. Personally I dislike the way BDA looks, but if you like it, go for it.

Actually that's my fundamental question.  Is the +x% Power Damage added to each power individually before the total power damage bonus is calculated OR is the +x% Power Damage just a single adder added to the total?  If it's the former, then the Infiltrator gets +30% while doing cloaked shooting w/ammo power due to having 2 powers active.  However, if it's the latter, the Infiltrator simply gets +15% like everyone else.  +15% isn't much, I agree but it is something.  +30% is pretty darn good so if that's a possibility, I'd definitely go for it as no armor upgrade provides this possibility.  I don' t like the look of BDA either but I find it's helpful with the power-user classes (Sentinel, Adept, Engineer).  I've never used it really with the combat classes but after I re-read the ME2 gameplay data thread, I thought to myself "Hey, maybe I can get a +30% effect out of BDA for Infiltrators?" which would be really cool for me as Infiltrator is one of my favorite classes.  W/+30% from BDA, that would put the Infiltrator perhaps almost on equal footing (not quite actually) with the Soldier sniper but with a lot more "sniper like" qualities due to the cloaking power.

thanks & best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 18 mai 2011 - 07:10 .

[kstarler]

First off, I would like to offer my apologies. I admit I only skimmed your post, and it was unfair to you.

As far as armor goes, Boz is correct that it doesn't make a real difference either way on Insanity. You'll still be able to one shot/one kill normal enemies with the Widow, and you likely won't see any time difference in killing enemies with other weapons.

As far as power damage goes, if you have the Kestrel armor, I think you'll see better returns numerically (again, there is very little in-game difference) stacking +Weapon Damage over +Power Damage, because I believe the former affects the base number before damage modifications. I'd have to confirm that though. Personally, when choosing armor I just pick whatever looks best and the Stimulator greaves that increase storm speed.

EDIT: In response to your last post, Eric ****nan writes:

Eric ****nan wrote...
Ammo powers make a single, separate damage call before the initial weapon damage call, and they use their own damage multipliers on resistances and health, as Christina mentions above.

I interperet that to mean that they are two separate calls, so the ammo power takes your base weapon damage, applies ammo+power percentages against the current defensive layer if applicable, and then makes a separate call for the cloak's increase to weapon damage once the ammo power has been accounted for. So you do get two +15% calculations, but not a true +30% calculation.

Modifié par kstarler, 18 mai 2011 - 07:37 .

[pedal2metal]

Thanks kstarler. I have always used the Kestrel armor for the combat classes (Soldier, Infiltrator, Vanguard) but this thought made me reconsider that choice for Infiltrators. I'm definitely going to try it & see what happens. It's usually best to test these things on a new Infiltrator build before you have any upgrades if you want to actually see any effect as it's true the effect gets diminished relatively speaking as you get all the sniper upgrades.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 18 mai 2011 - 07:40 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Yes, upgrades and bonuses are added first so +15% power damage, plus 2 biotic/tech upgrades and passive +15% > 15+20+15 = 50% extra damage; thus Heavy Warp will do 200 * 1.5 = 300 damage

Ammo powers work alike, +15% power damage is added to initial percentage, thus Tungsten Ammo will do 70 +15 = 85 % extra damage. However, like kstarler pointed out, ammo power damage is based on the original weapon damage, without upgrades.

Mattock does 50 damage, Tungsten adds (in this example) 85% = 42.5 > with 7/7 upgrades Tungsten's damage remains 42.5 but Mattock damage increases by 70% > 50 * 1.7 = 85. When used against armor Mattock receives a default 1.4 multiplier and an additional 1.25 through research. Thus; (50 * 1.7) * 1.4 * 1.25 = 178.5 damage without Tungsten. Tungsten adds 42.5 to get a total 221 damage (that's a 24 % increase) without the 15% power damage total would be 213.5 (20% increase).

[kstarler]

So, after reading Eric's final post in the gameplay data thread, it reads that ammo powers use weapon base damage only, where +damage powers like ARush (and I would imagine cloak falls under the same umbrella) take into account total damage before modification. This would support the idea that +weapon damage would be better for weapon-oriented classes than +power damage, since the former would modify the base number being used whereas the latter would modify the bonus being applied to the base number.

Or, in other words, a weapon doing 100 damage with +13% weapon damage will do 113 base damage, and 197 damage after Assassination Cloak is applied (100*.13)=113*.75=197) whereas it would only do 190 with only +15% Power Damage (100*.90=190).

Of course, my math could be off, or I could be misreading what he wrote, and both bonuses are applied after weapon damage is accounted for, in which case whichever percentage is higher would be more effective.

Modifié par kstarler, 18 mai 2011 - 10:32 .

[amcnow]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yes, upgrades and bonuses are added first so +15% power damage, plus 2 biotic/tech upgrades and passive +15% > 15+20+15 = 50% extra damage; thus Heavy Warp will do 200 * 1.5 = 300 damage

Ammo powers work alike, +15% power damage is added to initial percentage, thus Tungsten Ammo will do 70 +15 = 85 % extra damage. However, like kstarler pointed out, ammo power damage is based on the original weapon damage, without upgrades.

Mattock does 50 damage, Tungsten adds (in this example) 85% = 42.5 > with 7/7 upgrades Tungsten's damage remains 42.5 but Mattock damage increases by 70% > 50 * 1.7 = 85. When used against armor Mattock receives a default 1.4 multiplier and an additional 1.25 through research. Thus; (50 * 1.7) * 1.4 * 1.25 = 178.5 damage without Tungsten. Tungsten adds 42.5 to get a total 221 damage (that's a 24 % increase) without the 15% power damage total would be 213.5 (20% increase).

This is incorrect.  Power damage with regard to ammo powers is not a flat additive as you mentioned.  Ammo powers do not provide power damage bonuses.  They provide weapon damage bonuses.  As such, you add 15% of the ammo power's base weapon damage bonus to the ammo power:

Tungsten Ammo will do 70 * 1.15 = 80.5%

Source: Power Damage's effect on Ammo Powers

I made a more in-depth post about this a couple weeks ago in this thread: Post here if you're a Destroyer

EDIT:  Thanks to mcsupersport for correcting my math.  I'll never know how managed to mess it up when I got it right in the thread linked above.  Anyway, tungsten ammo should be 80.5% after bonus; not 82.5%. 

Modifié par amcnow, 19 mai 2011 - 02:13 .

[mcsupersport]

^ Math correction but:

70*1.15=80.5 not 82.5.

And that is still just 80.5 * weapon base damage or in Bozs example of 50*80.5=40.25 bonus damage with the 15% upgrade to Tungsten ammo.

So:

50 base example Mattlok

(50*1.7)*1.4*1.25+(50*.805)=148.75+40.25=189 total damage from the weapon against armor

40.25/189=22% of total damage for Tungsten upgraded.

[pedal2metal]

Thanks for all the great replies, excellent info. I also did some controlled testing tonight (this morning). Here's the results.
Setup:
Infiltrator, NG+ Insanity, Level 30
Heavy Disruptor Ammo
Assassination Cloak
Assassin
Heavy Warp Ammo

Mission: Zaeed: The Price of Revenge
Upgrades: None
Squadmates: Miranda (w/Leadership), Zaeed (not relevant)

I tried 2 sets of Armor:
Set 1: Full 5-piece Kestrel Setup which provides +11% Weapon Damage, +5% headshot damage
Set 2: Blood Dragon Armor +15% Power Damage

Weapon: M-98 Widow

4 Scenarios:
1. Using Kestrel Armor & M-98 w/Heavy Warp Ammo, shoot Blue Sun Mercenary w/headshot while cloaked.
2. Using Kestrel Armor & M-98 w/Heavy Disruptor Ammo, shoot Blue Sun Mercenary w/headshot while cloaked.
3. Using Blood Dragon Armor & M-98 w/Heavy Warp Ammo, shoot Blue Sun Mercenary w/headshot while cloaked.
4. Using Blood Dragon Armor & M-98 w/Heavy Disruptor Ammo, shoot Blue Sun Mercenary w/headshot while cloaked.

The results were as follows in terms of most damage first:
2 (one shot, one kill), 4 (one shot, one kill)
1 (small sliver of health left)
3 (slightly larger sliver of health left, roughly 2x #1 sliver size, not much but definitely visually detectable to the naked eye)

Obviously I can't prove 2>4 but since 1>3, it stands to reason that with Disruptor Ammo, the same relationship likely applies. So everyone's input was confirmed in real testing. The +x% weapon damage seems measurably more general-purpose as it modifies the base weapon damage which gets included in all the power-based multipliers (not to mention it helps every weapon). Not sure how the +x% headshot damage figures in but it can't hurt.
Let's see how the math comes out just to confirm.

Base Weapon Damage: Just use a variable say, D.
Kestrel Disruptor Case: 1.6*(1.11*D) = 1.776 damage multiplier for Disruptor Ammo (shields only)
(1.11*D)*1.75 = 1.94 damage multiplier for Cloak
BDA Disruptor Case: (1.6 + (0.6*1.15))*D = 1.69 damage multiplier for Disruptor Ammo (shields only)
1.9*D = 1.9 damage multiplier for Cloak

So the conclusion seems pretty clear. Kestrel outfit is superior to BDA for combat classes (assuming you're using all the +x% weapon damage pieces) & the test results bear this out.

Does anyone know how the cloak damage bonus works? Is it applied after the weapon upgrades are applied or like ammo powers to the base damage only?  Same question(s) for +x% headshot damage.

In any case, Kestrel is clearly excellent armor for combat classes due to the +11% weapon damage. Highly effective.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 19 mai 2011 - 07:27 .

[Bozorgmehr]

amcnow wrote...

This is incorrect.  Power damage with regard to ammo powers is not a flat additive as you mentioned.  Ammo powers do not provide power damage bonuses.  They provide weapon damage bonuses.  As such, you add 15% of the ammo power's base weapon damage bonus to the ammo power:

Tungsten Ammo will do 70 * 1.15 = 82.5%

Source: Power Damage's effect on Ammo Powers

I made a more in-depth post about this a couple weeks ago in this thread: Post here if you're a Destroyer

The devs have (more recently) confirmed that it's additive. Heavy Warp Ammo's 50% becomes 65% wearing Blood Dragon Armor; when used against ragdolled enemies Heavy Warp Ammo's 100% becomes 115%. I cannot find the thread in which they posted this (crappy BSN search). However, in the gameplay data thread you'll find that ammo powers are considered powers thus receive extra damage through +power damage gear/bonuses. Your example doesn't make any sense; there is no reason to suggest ammo powers work differently than 'normal' powers do. Not that it'd make any difference though, if you are right then the extra damage you'll get for wearing the BDA is even less - which was basically the point I tried to make

In the end, any +weapon/power damage gear has very little to no impact at all on gameplay; ammo powers also add very little damage and only in a very select few circumstances they make a difference (saving a shot).

Still interesting to find out how it works exactly though; I hope BW makes things a bit clearer in ME3 - using Tungsten Ammo suggest you get an +70% damage boost against armor/health, but you'd be lucky if it's half that number for most of the game (more likely a lot less). A couple simple stats showing damage (weapons and powers) would be really helpful, so we finally can see how upgrades, passives and gear affect damage.

[amcnow]

mcsupersport wrote...

^ Math correction but:

70*1.15=80.5 not 82.5.

And that is still just 80.5 * weapon base damage or in Bozs example of 50*80.5=40.25 bonus damage with the 15% upgrade to Tungsten ammo.

So:

50 base example Mattlok

(50*1.7)*1.4*1.25+(50*.805)=148.75+40.25=189 total damage from the weapon against armor

40.25/189=22% of total damage for Tungsten upgraded.

You're right.  Epic fail on my part.

[amcnow]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The devs have (more recently) confirmed that it's additive. Heavy Warp Ammo's 50% becomes 65% wearing Blood Dragon Armor; when used against ragdolled enemies Heavy Warp Ammo's 100% becomes 115%. I cannot find the thread in which they posted this (crappy BSN search). However, in the gameplay data thread you'll find that ammo powers are considered powers thus receive extra damage through +power damage gear/bonuses. Your example doesn't make any sense; there is no reason to suggest ammo powers work differently than 'normal' powers do. Not that it'd make any difference though, if you are right then the extra damage you'll get for wearing the BDA is even less - which was basically the point I tried to make

In the end, any +weapon/power damage gear has very little to no impact at all on gameplay; ammo powers also add very little damage and only in a very select few circumstances they make a difference (saving a shot).

Still interesting to find out how it works exactly though; I hope BW makes things a bit clearer in ME3 - using Tungsten Ammo suggest you get an +70% damage boost against armor/health, but you'd be lucky if it's half that number for most of the game (more likely a lot less). A couple simple stats showing damage (weapons and powers) would be really helpful, so we finally can see how upgrades, passives and gear affect damage.

I refuse to believe this until the actual source is found or a dev comes in here and confirms this.  I never said they weren't powers: they are ammo powers.  However, they provide a weapon damage bonus.  It makes no sense for power damage bonuses to be flat additives with weapon damage bonuses, regardless of the source.  This would also make power damage bonuses overpowered because they also affect biotic and tech damage.  So, it would make no sense for gameplay balance either.

[kstarler]

pedal2metal wrote...

Does anyone know how the cloak damage bonus works? Is it applied after the weapon upgrades are applied or like ammo powers to the base damage only?  Same question(s) for +x% headshot damage.

In any case, Kestrel is clearly excellent armor for combat classes due to the +11% weapon damage. Highly effective.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

I'm guessing that both apply in the same way as Adrenaline Rush, though I can't be sure.

Eric ****nan wrote...
Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. For example, shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.

Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.

Assuming that Adrenaline Rush and Tactical Cloak work the same, after checking the math with a 100 damage weapon +11% from armor, I get the same result whether Assassin Cloak or Headshot damage is applied first. Both come out as 203.9625.

Modifié par kstarler, 19 mai 2011 - 04:23 .