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[LobselVith8]

In the confrontation Knight-Commander Meredith has with King Alistair, she references the failed Magi boon that the Chantry turned down several years ago. However, Alistair and Teegan make reference to the Hero of Ferelden being in Denerim, regardless of whether The Warden went into the Eluvian with Morrigan or not. If The Warden is a mage, why doesn't Meredith take issue with Ferelden having an Arl who is a mage, presiding over an entire city of people (Amaranthine City) and having a private army (the Silver Order) at his disposal?

The Warden-Commander's role as the Arl of Amaranthine seems to be in direct defiance of the Chantry of Andraste's interpretation of the phrase "magic will serve man, and no rule over him." The Hero of Ferelden can have strong ties to very powerful people: the King of the Great Thaig Orzammar (which is the source of lyrium for the Chantry), the Dalish clans through the Keeper Lanaya, the Arl of Redcliffe, the lesser nobles who swear fealty to the new Arl of Amaranthine, and House Dace. Why doesn't Meredith make a comment about a powerful mage right across the Waking Sea? Why doesn't the Chantry seem to care about a mage who is being seen by the people of an entire nation as being "blessed by the Maker"? Wouldn't the Seekers be concerned that a mage is gaining tremendous political power and influential allies, possibly one who can ask for the ruler of the nation to give his people freedom from the Chantry?

With King Alistair protecting apostates from templars and the Arl of Amaranthine being a mage who can make it known that he wants his people free, wouldn't Meredith be concerned that mages from across Thedas would be heading to Amaranthine to find asylum from the templars, under a ruler who has made it known he doesn't agree with the Chantry controlled Circles? Aside from whether one agrees or disagrees with the Chantry and the Order of Templars, one would imagine Meredith, and potentially the Chantry and its templars, would be concerned about a mage who has gained so much power outside of Tevinter.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Because the arling belongs to the Grey Wardens, and as such a mage Warden-Commander only 'rules' in name of the Order/First Warden.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 19 mai 2011 - 04:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Because the arling belongs to the Grey Wardens, and as such a mage Warden-Commander only 'rules' in name of the Order/First Warden.

The Warden-Commander has more political power than any acting Grey Warden has ever possessed in the history of Thedas, outside of the Anderfels. Given how Knight-Commander Meredith feels about mages and her endorsement of the Chantry controlled Circles, I'd think she'd take issue with a mage holding political power, and I'm surprised she never says one word about it when she's willing to hold King Alistair accountable for a royal boon that was turned down by the Chantry almost seven years ago.

While the arling was technically given to the Grey Wardens by Teyrn Fergus Cousland (which is clear since the Teyrn can give back a portion of the arling to Nathaniel Howe), the Warden-Commander is recognized as the acting Arl of Amaranthine, is technically a high noble during his reign as the new Arl, has lesser nobles swearing fealty to him, commands an entire army, and acts to arbitrate disputes. He holds political power, which is clearly in violation of Chantry law since Jowan made it clear Connor couldn't hold inherit the position of Arl because he was a mage. Having a mage hold political power as a high noble is something I'd imagine would at least be commented on by the Knight-Commander who refers to mages having a "curse" more than once.

[Wulfram]

Meredith does grant some respect to the Champion, based on their having protected the city. So saving the world probably counts for something with her. Plus Wardens are a special case.

Also, there's the possibility that the Mage Warden is a chantry loyalist, so dialogue concerning them would have to be carefully written.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He is a Grey Warden and thus outside the Templars juridstiction. That is the long and short of it.

[Jugo616]

He is a Grey Warden - outside the jurisdiction of Chantry, Templars or Circle of Mages.

And he is a "Hero of Farelden" - he saved the world and people like him for that. If Chantry would try to harm him then Anders wouldn't be needed as simple peasants would start tearing down churches stone by stone.

[JohnstonMR]

Um.. where does that happen? Somehow I missed that.

[hoorayforicecream]

It would seem silly to concern herself with non-circle mages outside of her boundaries when she is already having trouble controlling the ones within her boundaries. She probably doesn't like the idea of a mage having political power nearby, but it's kind of hard to focus on the neighbor's bbq when your own house is on fire.

[TheAwesomologist]

Wulfram wrote...

Meredith does grant some respect to the Champion, based on their having protected the city. So saving the world probably counts for something with her. Plus Wardens are a special case.

Does anyone else feel like this was a real stretch in the story? I understand having to handwave things in the story for it to make sense (I'll let that sink in for a moment) but it seems so out of character for her to be so accepting of a Mage Hawke Champion.

[EmperorSahlertz]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Meredith does grant some respect to the Champion, based on their having protected the city. So saving the world probably counts for something with her. Plus Wardens are a special case.

Does anyone else feel like this was a real stretch in the story? I understand having to handwave things in the story for it to make sense (I'll let that sink in for a moment) but it seems so out of character for her to be so accepting of a Mage Hawke Champion.

She isn't accepting of him. She tolerates him.

[Xilizhra]

Basically, Meredith would have a full-scale rebellion on her hands if she tried to imprison a mage Hawke, and it's unlikely to be one that she'd win. Or at least the chances of her doing so would be too low to risk.

[Lord Gremlin]

Because you don't **** with The Grey Wardens. Or else you get sacrificed for the greater good. Simply put, that mage is way too powerful.

[atheelogos]

I'm sure she doesn't like it, but she has no jurisdiction over other groups or kingdoms so yeah....

[atheelogos]

: ( why are the DA2 avatars so ugly? Gotta change mine back

Modifié par atheelogos, 19 mai 2011 - 08:38 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

This is one of the areas in the game that I didn't like. Hawke only walks in on part of the conversation between Alistair and Meredith and it had to do with mages. I felt it was cryptic.

Per the OP, yeah the Arling belongs to the Grey Wardens and not the Warden Commander. Meredith also has no say in what goes on in another country.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He is a Grey Warden and thus outside the Templars juridstiction. That is the long and short of it.

Given Meredith's extremism, and the fact that Grey Wardens aren't supposed to hold titles or rule lands any more than mages are, I don't think that Grey Wardens being outside Chantry authority would make any difference on Meredith having an opinion on the issue.  It doesn't make sense that she wouldn't be just as pissy over that as she is over Alistair's attempt to grant autonomy to the Ferelden Circle.

Just because it's a long-standing tradition and possibly the law of the land doesn't mean the Chantry will either like or respect it.  We see in the Mage Prologue of Origins that Gregoire isn't really willing to respect the Right of Conscription and tries to use his authority to forbid Duncan from recruiting a mage in defiance of the law.  We see the same in Awakening when Rylock tries to challenge the Right from the Warden-Commander and only barely stops short of challenging the monarch's declaration of allowing Anders conscription...and of course later Rylock comes back and insists that the Chantry's authority supercedes the crown--and by extension that of the Wardens.  

So the whole thing about whether the Wardens are technically outside of Templar jurisdiction is a strawman.  It never stopped any Chantry official from trying to challenge that law or having an opinion on it.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

A mage warden doesn't really hold power on behalf of mages or magic, they are just the representative of the Wardens. The Grey Wardens are the ones who get the final say about how much power the Warden Commander has.

[Silfren]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

It would seem silly to concern herself with non-circle mages outside of her boundaries when she is already having trouble controlling the ones within her boundaries. She probably doesn't like the idea of a mage having political power nearby, but it's kind of hard to focus on the neighbor's bbq when your own house is on fire.

But that doesn't stop Meredith from jumping Alistair's case for his attempt to free the Ferelden Circle, does it?  Which I think was the point.

Modifié par Silfren, 19 mai 2011 - 10:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

We don't even hear the whole conversation, so perhaps she did complain about it.

Either way, the king harboring apostates IS within her juridstiction, so she can complain about that all she wants. A Templar's duty knows no border. An apostate can't jsut cross the border and be free of his Templar pursuers, so in this case she is entitled to complain. She can't complain about a Grey Warden being given a title, mage or no, because that is not her job.

[Silfren]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Meredith does grant some respect to the Champion, based on their having protected the city. So saving the world probably counts for something with her. Plus Wardens are a special case.

Does anyone else feel like this was a real stretch in the story? I understand having to handwave things in the story for it to make sense (I'll let that sink in for a moment) but it seems so out of character for her to be so accepting of a Mage Hawke Champion.

It does.  It never made sense to me that Hawke's money and title as Champion were sufficient to stay Meredith's hand in that regard.  It could have been a plausible reason if we'd actually been shown that Hawke had actual power and authority, by virtue of her status--perhaps Meredith attempted to arrest Hawke, only to find herself facing a peasant uprising, or such.  But then I thought the whole Champion status was a bit weak anyway.  I'd have had a better time believing that if we'd seen an actual rise to power over those years, rather than one trip to the Deep Roads and, years later, one fight with the Qunari. 

[Silfren]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

This is one of the areas in the game that I didn't like. Hawke only walks in on part of the conversation between Alistair and Meredith and it had to do with mages. I felt it was cryptic.

Per the OP, yeah the Arling belongs to the Grey Wardens and not the Warden Commander. Meredith also has no say in what goes on in another country.

I'm fairly sure that was by design.  It was meant to be cryptic.

And can we get past this thing about Meredith's jurisdiction?  She may not have jurisdiction, but that has no bearing on whether she has an opinion of Alistair allowing a mage to have extensive political power, which given her position on mages, translates into it not making sense for her to **** at him for one thing but not even mention the other.

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

A mage warden doesn't really hold power on behalf of mages or magic, they are just the representative of the Wardens. The Grey Wardens are the ones who get the final say about how much power the Warden Commander has.

Doesn't matter what they hold power on behalf of.  Fact is, you still have a mage wielding considerable political power and influence when by law they aren't supposed to.  And they are not just the representative of the Wardens.  A mage having that kind of position is going to be an inspiration to other mages, irrespective of how that mage came by her position.  I'd also argue that the Grey Wardens in general don't have the final say.  They may be technically in charge, but the Hero of Ferelden has influence quite apart from the Grey Wardens.  If the First Warden of Weisshaupt wanted to remove a Warden, mage or otherwise, from power, they'd have to contend with Ferelden's monarchy as well as the Warden Commander's own subjects. 

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He is a Grey Warden and thus outside the Templars juridstiction. That is the long and short of it.

Ser Rylock disagrees with you when she pursued Anders after he was made a Grey Warden.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He is a Grey Warden and thus outside the Templars juridstiction. That is the long and short of it.

Ser Rylock disagrees with you when she pursued Anders after he was made a Grey Warden.

So? She was hunting him illegally to avenge her comrades, by killing the mage she thought killed them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

A mage warden doesn't really hold power on behalf of mages or magic, they are just the representative of the Wardens. The Grey Wardens are the ones who get the final say about how much power the Warden Commander has.

Doesn't matter what they hold power on behalf of.  Fact is, you still have a mage wielding considerable political power and influence when by law they aren't supposed to.  And they are not just the representative of the Wardens.  A mage having that kind of position is going to be an inspiration to other mages, irrespective of how that mage came by her position.  I'd also argue that the Grey Wardens in general don't have the final say.  They may be technically in charge, but the Hero of Ferelden has influence quite apart from the Grey Wardens.  If the First Warden of Weisshaupt wanted to remove a Warden, mage or otherwise, from power, they'd have to contend with Ferelden's monarchy as well as the Warden Commander's own subjects. 

By law they are supposed to be free of direct Chantry supervision if they join the Grey Wardens and by law the Wardens control Amaranthine and have the authority to appoint whoever they want as its Commander.

Ser Rylock disagreed of course but it seemed to me that she was the one who was going rouge in her attempt to recapture Anders.

At the end of the day though, the whole thing seems moot beause I imagine it's more a technical limitation in the game, no more strange than her tolerating a mage Champion of Kirkwall. I can certainly see why she might be bothered by a mage leading Amarathine but she simply doesn't have that line in her dialouge.