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[TEWR]

if Alistair is really Fiona's child, and Duncan was supposed to watch over him, maybe that's why he was recruited. Not out of honor or pity regarding Alistair, but out of an old promise made to friends.

or a combination of them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 20 mai 2011 - 03:15 .

[dragonflight288]

Could be a mixture of both.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Could be a mixture of both.

you read my mind! I edited my post because I thought that at the last minute.

[Withidread]

Whether Meredith likes mage-Hawke or mage-Warden Commander is fairly irrelevant as she is all but powerless to do anything about either of them.

By the time Meredith is in any position to do something about Hawke, Hawke is the champion and has the support of the entire city. If Meredith went after Hawke at that point she'd have to face down the entire city of Kirkwall, the result of which would be staggering casualties for small benefit.

Further, If the duty of Templars is to "watch" mages, then the Champion of Kirkwall might be considered to be relatively light duty for a templar, so long as no conflict is provoked.

The Warden-Commander is even further out of Meredith's grasp. To go after the Warden, Meredith would have to not only abandon her post in Kirkwall, but she would also have to come into conflict with both the Grey Wardens AND Ferelden. Plus, the Warden is Greagor's problem, not Meredith's.

[erilben]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Huh?

It's strongly suggested Duncan recruited Alistair because he saw the kid was miserable and had talent (Alistair brings up "maybe he felt sorry for me." and "he saw my talents against mages could be useful against darkspawn."  Not due to any sense of honor. (And of course Alistair is Maric's kid).  It takes far more than just combat skill to be a Warden. You need to be wiling to get the job done. Honor can be counterproductive to that. 

Silfren is probably refering to Brother Tevius's story that tells that Duncan recruited Alsitair for his "character":
http://social.biowar...ex.php/Alistair

[dragonflight288]

you read my mind! I edited my post because I thought that at the last minute.

I seem to do that a lot and vice-verse while posting in the same things you do.

Whether Meredith likes mage-Hawke or mage-Warden Commander is fairly irrelevant as she is all but powerless to do anything about either of them.

By the time Meredith is in any position to do something about Hawke, Hawke is the champion and has the support of the entire city. If Meredith went after Hawke at that point she'd have to face down the entire city of Kirkwall, the result of which would be staggering casualties for small benefit.

Further, If the duty of Templars is to "watch" mages, then the Champion of Kirkwall might be considered to be relatively light duty for a templar, so long as no conflict is provoked.

The Warden-Commander is even further out of Meredith's grasp. To go after the Warden, Meredith would have to not only abandon her post in Kirkwall, but she would also have to come into conflict with both the Grey Wardens AND Ferelden. Plus, the Warden is Greagor's problem, not Meredith's.

Very well spoken. Besides, Amaranthine is in a different country than Kirkwall. If she wanted to interfere with the Grey Wardens, she would have to abandon her post (which means Cullen takes charge, or even another templar if Cullen went with her as a native of Ferelden)

Quite frankly, it'll likely be just too much hassle politically and militarily to even try.

But then again, we are talking about the same Knight-Commander who accused all the templars under her command to be under the influence of blood mages after she tries to annul the circle.

[Ryzaki]

erilben wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...Huh?

It's strongly suggested Duncan recruited Alistair because he saw the kid was miserable and had talent (Alistair brings up "maybe he felt sorry for me." and "he saw my talents against mages could be useful against darkspawn."  Not due to any sense of honor. (And of course Alistair is Maric's kid).  It takes far more than just combat skill to be a Warden. You need to be wiling to get the job done. Honor can be counterproductive to that. 

Silfren is probably refering to Brother Tevius's story that tells that Duncan recruited Alsitair for his "character":
http://social.biowar...ex.php/Alistair

That story doesn't seem to have anything to do with honor. More like Alistair's determination and strength of will (and smartassness). Things that are looked for in a warden recruit. (well maybe not the smart*** bit). 

And again Alistair is Maric's son. Far more was at work there then just "oh he's a nice guy let's recruit him." 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[Withidread]

dragonflight288 wrote...
But then again, we are talking about the same Knight-Commander who accused all the templars under her command to be under the influence of blood mages after she tries to annul the circle.

True, and we know the end result of that.  If Meredith had succeeded, perhaps she would have tried to go after the Warden-Commander next. She would probably have a difficult time gathering supporters at that point though, or maybe not, depending upon the fervor of Kirkwall citizenry against mages at that point.

[Augustei]

Shes probably scared of the political influence he carries, I mean if he is in good with the king of orzammar then should the templars stand against him he can ask to have Orzammars doors temporarily closed.. Besides having the dwarves fight the blight was an obligation from the treaty. I say we are still owed a boon =D

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

...Huh?

It's strongly suggested Duncan recruited Alistair because he saw the kid was miserable and had talent (Alistair brings up "maybe he felt sorry for me." and "he saw my talents against mages could be useful against darkspawn."  Not due to any sense of honor. (And of course Alistair is Maric's kid).  It takes far more than just combat skill to be a Warden. You need to be wiling to get the job done. Honor can be counterproductive to that. 

I don't know where the reference comes from, but I've read in various places that Duncan didn't recruit Alistair for his skill, but for a more nebulous personality trait.  Apparently there was a tournament that Alistair took part in while Duncan watched?  Anyway, based on that, supposedly Duncan looked past the fact that Alistair wasn't the most skilled in any arena, seeing something special about the kid's sense of integrity or what-have-you.

In any event, yes there is evidence that Duncan recruited Alistair out of pity and not to do with any merit on Alistair's part.  Indeed we see that Alistair is so starry-eyed about the Wardens and his steadfast belief in honor that he seems to have forgotten that whole bit about Wardens doing whatever is necessary, regardless of the cost.

[dragonflight288]

I think it had more to do with his strength of will. He was not the most skilled, not the strongest, or the fastest. And he hadn't taken his vows. That means he wasn't addicted to lyrium like any other templar would be. If a templar was recruited in place Alistair, that templar would HAVE to go back to the chantry constantly for lyrium, and may even gave up warden secrets for the lyrium.

Alistair had templar training, a strong sense of integrity, a lack of addiction to lyrium, and a deeply ingrained cynicism of the chantry's structure.

[EmperorSahlertz]

He had the best qualities to become a Warden. Like I said, that is what Duncan looked for.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He had the best qualities to become a Warden. Like I said, that is what Duncan looked for.

Once again, the game doesn't actually bear you out.  Duncan himself reiterated the Grey Warden policy of "by any means necessary" and made clear that this included the embracing of blood magic and maleficars, and throughout Origins we hear that the Wardens are prepared to sacrifice the few to save the many. 

Alistair balks at the concept several times, insisting on a preference for Doing The Right Thing over For The Greater Good, even though he himself admitted that the single-minded goal of Grey Wardens often meant "some pretty extreme things."  I think it's arguable that Duncan didn't actually make a sound decision in recruiting Alistair, letting his pity get in the way of his pragmatism.  

[Huntress]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Because the arling belongs to the Grey Wardens, and as such a mage Warden-Commander only 'rules' in name of the Order/First Warden.

^ this and because none of the DAA, WH is transfered to DA2... they are gonna make a patch to fix that!

I don't like to play mages in DAO, but I might Trasnfer my human mage to DAA for next patch.

[Xilizhra]

In any event, yes there is evidence that Duncan recruited Alistair out of pity and not to do with any merit on Alistair's part. Indeed we see that Alistair is so starry-eyed about the Wardens and his steadfast belief in honor that he seems to have forgotten that whole bit about Wardens doing whatever is necessary, regardless of the cost.

Well, in Origins, it's totally possible to both do what's necessary and never clash with Alistair's honor.

[Silfren]

Xilizhra wrote...

In any event, yes there is evidence that Duncan recruited Alistair out of pity and not to do with any merit on Alistair's part. Indeed we see that Alistair is so starry-eyed about the Wardens and his steadfast belief in honor that he seems to have forgotten that whole bit about Wardens doing whatever is necessary, regardless of the cost.

Well, in Origins, it's totally possible to both do what's necessary and never clash with Alistair's honor.

Which is completely beside the point and doesn't contradict what I wrote at all, so....so what?

[Drachasor]

Huntress wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Because the arling belongs to the Grey Wardens, and as such a mage Warden-Commander only 'rules' in name of the Order/First Warden.

^ this and because none of the DAA, WH is transfered to DA2... they are gonna make a patch to fix that!

I don't like to play mages in DAO, but I might Trasnfer my human mage to DAA for next patch.

Well, my mage was also given his own title and lands (what Logain used to have), so that's a more clearcut example.

[Huntress]

Drachasor wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Because the arling belongs to the Grey Wardens, and as such a mage Warden-Commander only 'rules' in name of the Order/First Warden.

^ this and because none of the DAA, WH is transfered to DA2... they are gonna make a patch to fix that!

I don't like to play mages in DAO, but I might Trasnfer my human mage to DAA for next patch.

Well, my mage was also given his own title and lands (what Logain used to have), so that's a more clearcut example.

I know, the game has some bug's, hopefully next patch will repair some of them, if not all..

I have the bug that won't shoot Nathal quest.

[In Exile]

Likely, this is too narrow a plot thread for the writers to devote any energy/thought to it. Not everyone would have a Warden mage (and it may be the Orlesian Warden Mage) rule in Amaranthine, there may not even *be* an Amaranthine depending on Awakening... etc.

[dragonflight288]

Alistair has many skills, and may be one of the only people with templar training not leashed to the chantry. And Duncan could never have foreseen Loghain's retreat from the field. Alistair was a raw recruit, only six months into the wardens when we met him.

There's no way of knowing what else Duncan may have taught Alistair about being a Grey Warden, or any of the other senior wardens.

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...
I don't know where the reference comes from, but I've read in various places that Duncan didn't recruit Alistair for his skill, but for a more nebulous personality trait.  Apparently there was a tournament that Alistair took part in while Duncan watched?  Anyway, based on that, supposedly Duncan looked past the fact that Alistair wasn't the most skilled in any arena, seeing something special about the kid's sense of integrity or what-have-you.

In any event, yes there is evidence that Duncan recruited Alistair out of pity and not to do with any merit on Alistair's part.  Indeed we see that Alistair is so starry-eyed about the Wardens and his steadfast belief in honor that he seems to have forgotten that whole bit about Wardens doing whatever is necessary, regardless of the cost.

I haven't read anything like that. In fact consideringwhat the wardens stand for doing such would be stupid. Duncan is many things but he's not stupid. 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She said that Chantry authority supercedes the crown in the matter of Anders being a Grey Warden. That means the Chantry condoned her actions despite the King/Queen allowing Anders' conscription.

She was wrong too.  Even the Grand Cleric couldn't stop Alistair being recruited.  The Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription all over Thedas, and nobody from the Chantry can stop a conscription.  That crazy templar was in the wrong when even the Monarch acknowledges their Right of Conscription.  Just like Grey Wardens have no say in a Circle Annullment.  Doesn't stop Grey Wardens from recruiting apostate mages.  Which in my opinion is the best way to save a mage outside of the circles.  

I was really surprised in not seeing a confrontation between the Grey Wardens with Bethany/Carver being kidnapped by the Templars if they are both Wardens.  I felt this was a lost opportunity in the game.  Seems the Grey Wardens would have something to say to the Chantry over that one.

[dragonflight288]

And if the Grey Wardens wanted to, they could conscript Empress Celene of Orlais and she shouldn't be able to do anything about it. They can conscript anyone from royalty to common beggers and criminals.

Duncan wasn't stupid, but when he conscripted Alistair, he likely needed someone with templar talents to take on darkspawn emissaries. And someone with templar abilities but no lyrium addiction would be perfect.