105 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

I'd say she doesn't want to cross the Wardens, doesn't want to cross all of his allies personally (Ferelden, Orzammar, etc), and cuts him a bit of slack for saving all of Thedas from the Blight.

....Which says nothing for why she's nevertheless pissy over his attempt to free the Ferelden Circle and has no issue expressing such, which disputes everything you just wrote.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Likely, this is too narrow a plot thread for the writers to devote any energy/thought to it. Not everyone would have a Warden mage (and it may be the Orlesian Warden Mage) rule in Amaranthine, there may not even *be* an Amaranthine depending on Awakening... etc.

Er.  Not everyone plays a Mage Warden, but that doesn't stop the writers from giving Meredith some dialogue referring to the Magi Boon, if granted.  And the game can obviously recognize whether you saved Amaranthine or not (barring those dang bugs), so giving Meredith some dialogue to recognize the particular flag about a Mage Warden ruling Amaranthine would hardly have been a strain on resources.

[Hatchetman77]

Silfren wrote...
It does.  It never made sense to me that Hawke's money and title as Champion were sufficient to stay Meredith's hand in that regard.  It could have been a plausible reason if we'd actually been shown that Hawke had actual power and authority, by virtue of her status--perhaps Meredith attempted to arrest Hawke, only to find herself facing a peasant uprising, or such.  But then I thought the whole Champion status was a bit weak anyway.  I'd have had a better time believing that if we'd seen an actual rise to power over those years, rather than one trip to the Deep Roads and, years later, one fight with the Qunari. 

Just wanted to quote this and state my agreement.

[Silfren]

Filament wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Filament wrote...

I'd say she doesn't want to cross the Wardens, doesn't want to cross all of his allies personally (Ferelden, Orzammar, etc), and cuts him a bit of slack for saving all of Thedas from the Blight.

....Which says nothing for why she's nevertheless pissy over his attempt to free the Ferelden Circle and has no issue expressing such, which disputes everything you just wrote.

What? No it doesn't. Freeing the Circle has nothing to do with the Wardens, and cutting him a bit a slack doesn't necessarily mean accepting everything he does so much as letting it slide that he is a mage with undue power.

Right.  Since it's against Chantry law for a mage to hold titles or power, and Grey Wardens also aren't supposed to hold titles or power, Meredith would just not see any reason to mention a King defying both traditions and putting a mage not just into a position of power and granting a title, but giving them one of the most politically important arlings in Ferelden.  As Knight Commander, I think Meredith would be just as concerned with a king flouting centuries of tradition and law in regards to a mage being granted that level of power as she is about his freeing a Circle.  Granting a mage that kind of political power and authority isn't exactly going to go unnoticed by the other mages of Thedas, after all, especially those of Ferelden.  It's a big enough deal that for Meredith not to be bothered by it doesn't make sense.  The argument that she's willing to cut the king some slack for Amaranthine applies just as much to his attempt to grant his Circle autonomy, because in either scenario she's arguing with a monarch with important political ties.  

[dragonflight288]

And Fereldan is a completely different country. Amaranthine would be outside her jurisdiction.

[LobselVith8]

Filament wrote...

I was saying she's cutting the Warden some slack, not the King. And freeing the Circle isn't the same as him being Arl, saying he shouldn't be Arl means questioning the Warden's legitimacy directly, that's a much more significant charge than questioning the boon he asked for.

We know that King Alistair is also protecting apostates from the Chantry. If mages are fleeing Kirkwall to an Amaranthine governed by an Arl who happens to be the most powerful mage in all the Andrastian nations and Hero of Ferelden, wouldn't she comment on it? Or do you think she's cutting the Hero of Ferelden slack because she's a templar who is holding the position of Viscount over the city-state of Kirkwall by acting as de facto Viscount and refusing all replacements for the deceased Marlowe Dumar, considering that templars aren't supposed to hold political positions any more than mages are in Andrastian society?

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And Fereldan is a completely different country. Amaranthine would be outside her jurisdiction.

That applies to the Ferelden Circle, too, ya know.

[EmperorSahlertz]

A quick question: How do any of you know that she didn't comment on it? We don't see the entire conversation.

[LobselVith8]

Filament wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We know that King Alistair is also protecting apostates from the Chantry. If mages are fleeing Kirkwall to an Amaranthine governed by an Arl who happens to be the most powerful mage in all the Andrastian nations and Hero of Ferelden, wouldn't she comment on it?

I do think it makes sense for her to comment on it, I was just throwing out reasons why she might plausibly not comment on it. I mean, if she's willing to overlook the Champion's magic just for him being a noble and later defeating the Arishok (okay, that's hardly plausible in itself, but given that that's what happens...), it seems similarly plausible following from that that the hero of Ferelden and Commander of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden might enjoy a similar overlooking.

I interpreted it as an issue of the Champion becoming valued among the most powerful members of Kirkwall society for saving them from the Arishok, and Meredith not wanting to risk her position (as the de facto Viscount) by imprisoning the Champion. I agree that it doesn't sound plausible as it was presented to us, and KoP made a good suggestion in a different thread about it being more realistic if Hawke gathered support from the Ferelden refugees and having a large percentage of the Ferelden refugees supporting Hawke (a number that would conceivably dwarf both the Kirkwall populace and the number of templars stationed at the Gallows).

As for the Hero of Ferelden, I'd wager that the people themselves (who Queen Anora acknowledged as seeing him as "blessed by the Maker") would be more likely to overlook him being a mage in the wake of the Blight, particularly if he's able to save the City of Amaranthine from the darkspawn horde, but I never understood why no one in the Chantry or the templars noted him being a mage with power. I thought it would have made sense if Leliana wrote a letter to the Hero addressing that she's speaking to the Grand Cleric because of this issue, if the protagonist of Origins was from the Circle of Ferelden. Having a mage become a high noble with all the benefits that being an Arl entails seems to be a precedent for mages that I don't think the Chantry would ignore, and we know from the scene in Ostagar that the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to like mages or magic.

Filament wrote...

Also, doesn't the cutscene start where they're already talking? Maybe she simply mentioned it earlier?

Possibly, but would it have hurt to provide one line of dialogue addressing this for the player? We have cameos inserted left and right, but I'd imagine having something so unprecedented would be commented on (even if it was by Knight-Captain Cullen, who knew the Hero of Ferelden from the Harrowing and the Uldred incident). The scene regarding the Magi boon is basically the very same scene regarding the three apostates that Alistair is shielding from the templars, but with a few lines being different.

[dragonflight288]

That applies to the Ferelden Circle, too, ya know.

That's true. But that's maybe why she was talking to Alistair (if he's king) because she doesn't have authority to go there and pick up runaway mages. Only Alistair is not letting her take them so she's throwing a hissy fit by the time we (Hawke) gets there.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I'd really like to know who those three mages are that King Alistair saved. The whole problem with the cut scene is we didn't hear the start of the conversation between Alistair and Meredith.

I had the impression also from Meredith that she was talking down to Alistair like he was still a Templar and not King of Ferelden.  She showed a complete lack of disrepect for a visiting Monarch to Kirkwall.  I also agree with a poster above that she should have been worried because Alistair as a monarch would also have communication with the Divine in Orlai.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 23 mai 2011 - 06:43 .

[Red Panda]

Amaranthine is outside Kirkwall's jurisdiction.
The warden cannot be touched.

Modifié par OperatingWookie, 24 mai 2011 - 01:05 .

[WhiteKnyght]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

He is a Grey Warden and thus outside the Templars juridstiction. That is the long and short of it.

Yep, except for the occasional time when an overzealous Templar decides they are tired of Apostates and Maleficarum hiding in the Grey Wardens.

Sometimes I wonder why the Chantry lets the Grey have those kinds of privileges or even exist at all. Since the Chantry believes the Blight is the Maker's punishment for mankind its a wonder they don't bow to the darkspawn and say "Please punish us"

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I don't know if anyone else will agree, but I do see Meredith and the Chantry both taking on the Wardens. Especially Meredith in her demented state. The Divine in Orlai might have reservations on taking on the Wardens with Leliana at her side and Leliana saw first hand what the life of warden meant and the need for wardens to have mages in their ranks. I have no problem seeing Meredith challenge the wardens regardless of what country they are from. I found it interesting there is no warden outpost in Kirkwall with the deep roads underneath them. The Chantry and Templars don't like the fact that a mage can seek shelter from the wardens. The Right of Conscription supercedes every authority even the Divine.

[Alex Kershaw]

Because Awakenings happens before Act 1 (because Anders is in Kirkwall for Act 1) and the meeting with Alistair is in Act 3, which is over 6 years later. I'm pretty sure in the epilogue it always says that the arl wasn't the arl for long, so it seems that by the time Meredith and Alistair meet, the arl hasn't been the arl for a long time.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Because Awakenings happens before Act 1 (because Anders is in Kirkwall for Act 1) and the meeting with Alistair is in Act 3, which is over 6 years later. I'm pretty sure in the epilogue it always says that the arl wasn't the arl for long, so it seems that by the time Meredith and Alistair meet, the arl hasn't been the arl for a long time.

That's right, the epilogue card did say the warden commander (our warden) made the decision to move on and we don't know why unless you went through the mirror with Morrgian, even if Queen you still return to court and you still disappear.  Leliana and Cassandra both acknowledge the warden is missing.
 
Where are people getting that Meredith and Alistair were having words over Amaranthine and the Warden Commander of Ferelden (if a mage) and over the boon for the mages?  Didn't the boon fall through on that and with the Dalish too being given land near Ostagar?  Alistair as monarch has not disbanded the Ferelden Circle by the time a player is in WH.  If he did it would have happened after WH.

I got the impression their whole discussion was over the three mages that Alistair gave refugee too. 
Which begs the questions who were the three mages and why did Alistair offer them assistance?

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 24 mai 2011 - 07:15 .

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

That's right, the epilogue card did say the warden commander (our warden) made the decision to move on and we don't know why unless you went through the mirror with Morrgian, even if Queen you still return to court and you still disappear.  Leliana and Cassandra both acknowledge the warden is missing.

I thought Witch Hunt happened within 1 to 2 years after the Blight ended (given the different time references from the advertisement that said one year and the map of Ferelden that referenced years). Did the writers clarify the timeline, or is it still a mess? We also don't know how long the Hero and Morrigan were gone for when they went into the Eluvian, especially if the "disappearance" mentioned by Leliana happens three years after the Right of Annulment in Kirkwall, and it seems that Hawke may have also disappeared for the same reason (if Leliana is correct).

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...
 
Where are people getting that Meredith and Alistair were having words over Amaranthine and the Warden Commander of Ferelden (if a mage) and over the boon for the mages?  Didn't the boon fall through on that and with the Dalish too being given land near Ostagar?  Alistair as monarch has not disbanded the Ferelden Circle by the time a player is in WH.  If he did it would have happened after WH.

I asked why Meredith wouldn't mention a mage acting as the Arl of Amaranthine over one of the most important arlings in the nation of Ferelden, and having unprecedented political and military power for a mage living in an Andrastian nation. Meredith takes King Alistair to task for the Magi boon that was turned down almost seven years prior to their conversation, so I don't see why she wouldn't bring up the fact that a mage is now a high noble who commands fealty from lesser nobles, has a city of people under his juristiction, has an army under his command, and governs an entire arling when we know how the Chantry of Andraste views magic, mages, and has made it illegal for mages to inherit a title (which is why we had the situation with Arlessa Isolde and Connor).

The Dalish boon seems to have resulted in the implied deaths of the Dalish, given how Alistair reacts to Merrill when she asks him about the Hinterlands.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I got the impression their whole discussion was over the three mages that Alistair gave refugee too. 
Which begs the questions who were the three mages and why did Alistair offer them assistance?

King Alistair mentions he can do something about the mages outside of the Circle of Ferelden, and some people think he's nationalizing magic.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I would think the chantry in Ferelden and the Grand Cleric there along with the Divine would be putting Alistair on the hot seat instead of Meredith. I don't remember Alistair saying he can do anything about mages in freeing all of the circles, he never said that. I think at the end of DAO as monarch he said he would make the suggestion to the chantry, he would open dialogue with the chantry over the issue on behalf of the Mage Warden Commander in allowing mages more freedom. Like I said, he helps three mages escape so who are the three mages? We don't know who they are. Unless one of them if playing a mage warden import is one of them and this is the reason for the strange response from Teagan on the Hero of Ferelden being in Denerim now.

Alistair would have the right as a monarch in protecting his citizens as refugees in Kirkwall therefore he can step in and do something. If the mages in question are native born Fereldens mages or just ordinary citizens it won't matter. He has a right and duty to come to their aid. Chantry or no chantry. Meredith isn't offically the Viscount of Kirkwall and she has no right to question Alistair on his authority as a King protecting his people that he has come to help. He does bring a ship and if any Ferelden born person if they wish to return to Ferelden he is there to take them. Aveline also finds out that she can return to Ferelden and become a knight in the Kings army again. Alistair in some playthroughs will also have a friend of the Divine on his side with Leliana being the Divine's henchmen. So Meredith can't see the trouble she is stirring in her demented state. If the blight had started in Orlai I don't see Celene taking Meredith's lip either and this just shows that the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall should have done something with Meredith right then and there when she challenges a visiting Monarch.

The only way for Merrill to get that response is if the warden sided with werewolves or it seems this way to me.

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

She said that Chantry authority supercedes the crown in the matter of Anders being a Grey Warden. That means the Chantry condoned her actions despite the King/Queen allowing Anders' conscription.

Considering she doesn't use that argument when the king/queen is present right in front of her as you choose to conscript Anders, it doesn't seem to actually be the case. She may be just trying to bs her way through, gambling on the Warden's ignorance.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith takes King Alistair to task for the Magi boon that was turned down almost seven years prior to their conversation, so I don't see why she wouldn't bring up the fact that a mage is now a high noble who commands fealty from lesser nobles, has a city of people under his juristiction, has an army under his command, and governs an entire arling when we know how the Chantry of Andraste views magic, mages, and has made it illegal for mages to inherit a title (which is why we had the situation with Arlessa Isolde and Connor).

Perhaps because --if Chantry has some actual say in this regard-- such decision had to be in the first place accepted by both the Grand Cleric and the Knight-Commander of Ferelden, leaving Meredith no choice but mind her own business rather than try to dictate policies of a foreign nation?

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Meredith takes King Alistair to task for the Magi boon that was turned down almost seven years prior to their conversation, so I don't see why she wouldn't bring up the fact that a mage is now a high noble who commands fealty from lesser nobles, has a city of people under his juristiction, has an army under his command, and governs an entire arling when we know how the Chantry of Andraste views magic, mages, and has made it illegal for mages to inherit a title (which is why we had the situation with Arlessa Isolde and Connor).

Perhaps because --if Chantry has some actual say in this regard-- such decision had to be in the first place accepted by both the Grand Cleric and the Knight-Commander of Ferelden, leaving Meredith no choice but mind her own business rather than try to dictate policies of a foreign nation?

Did they accept it? We never hear anything about what the Chantry, the Grand Cleric (who seems to have distain for mages and magic from her scene at Ostagar), and Knight-Commander Greagoir think about the Commander of the Grey being a mage. I don't understand why such an important and substantial move doesn't have at least one line dedicated to addressing that a mage in Andrastian society possesses power that the Chantry forbids all mages in Andrastian societies from possessing (which was the problem with Connor, despite being the son of Arl Eamon). We know that the people see the Hero of Ferelden as being blessed by the Maker after the Blight, and I'm sure the rescue of the City of Amaranthine would solidify this view for many people living in the arling, but we never hear anyone's opinion about a mage being the new Arl.

And wouldn't Meredith at least have an opinion on what's going on in an arling that's not that far from Kirkwall? She clearly has no problem addressing a royal boon that has turned down almost seven years ago, so wouldn't she comment on a mage who has more political and military power than any mage in Andrastian history ever possessed?

[dragonflight288]

That is a good question. Maybe she did ask about it? We didn't hear the whole conversation after all.