194 réponses à ce sujet

[candidate88766]

Mesina2 wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...
Playing GoW or CoD is like watching a Michael Bay film. Its entertainment where you can just turn your brain off for a bit and have some fun.

That's an insult for any video game.


Black Ops story, for example, is superior to ANY Micheal Bay's movie.

Except for Pear Harbor, only good movie from Micheal Bay, they're on same level.

I meant in the sense that he makes films where you can just turn your brain off for a bit and enjoy some explosions. I liked the first Transformers and bits of some of his other films, but I kinda meant the sort of genre he specialises in - it just seemed easier to refer to them as Michael Bay films. CoD games are in the same brand of mindless entertainment that lots of people, including me (from time to time) enjoy. The sort of entertainment involving gratuitous amounts of pyrotechnics.

Modifié par candidate88766, 20 mai 2011 - 11:44 .

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...
And Jack's, Miranda's, Samara's, Jacobs, Thane's, Garrus', Zaeed's and Grunt's are not.

Except that the point of the game -also known as overreaching plot- is to recruit these and stop the human abductions.

[Phaedon]

candidate88766 wrote...
I meant in the sense that he makes films where you can just turn your brain off for a bit and enjoy some explosions. I liked the first Transformers and bits of some of his other films, but I kinda meant the sort of genre he specialises in - it just seemed easier to refer to them as Michael Bay films. CoD games are in the same brand of mindless entertainment that lots of people, including me (from time to time) enjoy.

What I don't like is how people say that "CGI scenes" and "explosions" are not art.

They take as much talent and as hard to do as writing a plot. Hell, for me, writing a plot seems much easier than doing any animation and modelling.

[GodWood]

Phaedon wrote...

GodWood wrote...
No, you are wrong. The number of prothean/reaper related main missions in ME1 may be the same as ME2 (though I honestly have no idea, I've never bothered to count) but the percentage of non-reaper related main quests in ME2 is larger.
And to further the game one must complete a chunk of these non-related missions.

That still does not make your correct.
ME2 was as much relevant as ME1 was, it just centered more on character development.

Centred on character development that was irrelevent to the main Reaper plot and was more or less just filler.

So yeah "Ur wrong!" 

I'll admit I just wanted to repeat your opening just because.

Honestly I don't even know why I am having this discussion, this isn't even one of my main issues with ME2.
I was just defending these 'morons' for complaining about it.



I'm too tired.

[candidate88766]

Phaedon wrote...

Why would one of C-Sec's finest detectives abandon his job and join a Spectre all of a sudden. Sure, there are some reasons, but when Garrus joins you, he does that in order to hunt for leads, he shouldn't follow you aboard the Normandy. Or at least, he should "update" his explanation.

Liara is integral to the plot, yes, but so is everyone in the ME2 team as well. They are all part of the team that TIM told you to recruit, and for a character-based game, I would like to think that their character development is a major part of the plot as well.

I agree with you that the ME2 characters are far more integral to the plot than the characters were in the first game, I was just saying that I thought Garrus had a fairly good reason to join you - C-Sec wouldn't let him investigate Saren and from what I remember he was already having problems with the restirctions of working in C-Sec. it may be a bit of a leap to say he'd instantly quit and join Shepard but I think it worked.

[candidate88766]

Phaedon wrote...

What I don't like is how people say that "CGI scenes" and "explosions" are not art.

They take as much talent and as hard to do as writing a plot. Hell, for me, writing a plot seems much easier than doing any animation and modelling.

Eaxactly! The amount of money that goes into modern CGI is bordering on ridiculous, but looking at recent films you can see why. Its incredible what artists can render on screen nowadays.

One of the reasons I kinda like Michael Bay is that he still likes doing explosions 'old-school'. Nothing quite like watching a gargantuan explosion at the cinema.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Hopefully ME3 will be even higher rated and more award winning.

[Gatt9]

Phaedon wrote...

Chaos Gate wrote...

Well, I've played Gears of War - it's one of my favourite franchises. And I feel that the likening of Mass Effect 2 to Gears of War is completely justified, IMO. Because while the ME series has always been a shooter/RPG hybrid, ME2 completely threw this balance out of sync. It was about 85% action, 15% RPG (and that's being generous). And so yes, I believe ME2 was more akin to Gears of War than Mass Effect.

Yes, I remember how you think that a deep RPG experience is about stats.
Why don't you check the interview the TES creators had about RPG elements?

ME1 is not a hybrid, not even close, it has RPG mechanics defining shooter mechanics. The most important part of a shooter is to have direct control over the protagonist in combat. ME1 limits that. A lot.

In fact, you don't even justify how it's anything like GoW there. It has enhanced shooter combat, therefore it is GoW? Heh

While ME2 could invest with more stats on things that the player can't control, these stats are still there, and the shooter elements are seperate than with the RPG ones, hence a true hybrid.

I love how in every one of these threads that has positive news about ME2, the same people come and try to derail them, each time. And yet, this isn't ban-able, somehow.

Still kind of time limited but...

1.  Gameplay defines the game,  ME2 wants to be a cover based shooter,  GoW is a cover based shooter. 

2.  ME2 doesn't have any stats.  None of the "Stats" in ME2 matter,  because they're all related to random special abilities don't provide a gateway to higher level content,  in fact,  there is no high level content.  Like Gears of War,  if you could get to the end boss at level 1 you could kill him,  you would just have to use a little more ammo.

3.  Considering that the thread was about ME2 and it's rating,  and my post that started this was about how ME2 clearly didn't deserve the GotY awards and why,  and instead you're arguing about something completely different,  you really should be carefull about asking for people to be banned for derailing.

[Paragon Gabriel]

candidate88766 wrote...
I agree with you that the ME2 characters are far more integral to the plot than the characters were in the first game, I was just saying that I thought Garrus had a fairly good reason to join you - C-Sec wouldn't let him investigate Saren and from what I remember he was already having problems with the restirctions of working in C-Sec. it may be a bit of a leap to say he'd instantly quit and join Shepard but I think it worked.

I heared it was b/c of love.

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...
Centred on character development that was irrelevent to the main Reaper plot and was more or less just filler.

Hold it right there.
A second act maintains the threat/overreaching plot, focuses on collecting resources that will be important in the third act (squadmates, Normandy SR2 etc) , analyzes themes that will be dominant in the third act (Cerberus, Geth/Quarian conflict, Genophage, Cerberus, etc.) and also analyzes the overreaching plot a bit (nature of Reapers). ME2 didn't do perfectly in those, but it is not fundamentally flawed.

The first acts sets up the universe (ME1 did an okay job at this, but it only set up the 1/3rd of the universe), introduces the overreaching plot (that, it did amazingly) and includes the first encounter in it's finale (which it also did nicely)

I'll admit I just wanted to repeat your opening just because.

Honestly I don't even know why I am having this discussion, this isn't even one of my main issues with ME2.
I was just defending these 'morons' for complaining about it.

I'm too tired.

Don't. Nobody said that ME1 or 2 were perfect, but most of us agree that they are great games. The original point of the thread -that is completely derailed now- is that statistically, ME2 is EA's highest rated game, among hundrend others competitors. Saying that a game has "no plot" or "horrible plot" is an extreme and non-constructive position that doesn't deserve being defended.

[CroGamer002]

GodWood wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
You do know you can just skip them all, right?

No you cannot, you have to at least complete some.
But that's not even the issue.
Having to do them isn't the problem, it's the fact that we are doing these missions instead of missions that could have a more direct relevence to the plot.

There's same amount of main plot missions in ME2 like in ME1.

Cerberus lab station=Eden Prime
Freedom's Progress=Getting evidence against Saren
Mordin=Liara
Horizon=Feros
Collector Ship=Noveria
Derelict Reaper=Ilos
Suicide Mission=Retaking Citadel


Only thing is that you are forced to recruit first 4 squadmates before Horizon and have 2 more after Horizon unless you have Zaeed and Kasumi who are DLC's.

Out of 12 squadmates 6 of them are optional, though you must have choose 2 out of those 6 where in ME1 you choose between Garrus or Wrex. But why wouldn't you take all?

Also you CAN skip every LM.
After you recruit everyone, just do few side missions that aren't LM's and wait for Collector Ship and Crew Abduction to happen.

Also Legion's LM is connected to Reapers.

Geth Heretics work for Reapers and not doing his LM will probably have huge consequences.

And Jack's, Miranda's, Samara's, Jacobs, Thane's, Garrus', Zaeed's and Grunt's are not.

Well you can skip them if it bothers you.

[JeffZero]

Phaedon wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...
I meant in the sense that he makes films where you can just turn your brain off for a bit and enjoy some explosions. I liked the first Transformers and bits of some of his other films, but I kinda meant the sort of genre he specialises in - it just seemed easier to refer to them as Michael Bay films. CoD games are in the same brand of mindless entertainment that lots of people, including me (from time to time) enjoy.

What I don't like is how people say that "CGI scenes" and "explosions" are not art.

They take as much talent and as hard to do as writing a plot. Hell, for me, writing a plot seems much easier than doing any animation and modelling.

For me as well, but some people (us) seem more prone to being decent writers while others are more prone to being better graphic artists.

I'm not trying to take away from your point; I agree with you fully. I'm just sayin'... I know a bunch of people who claim opposite. Talents, I suppose.

[Phaedon]

JeffZero wrote...
For me as well, but some people (us) seem more prone to being decent writers while others are more prone to being better graphic artists.

I'm not trying to take away from your point; I agree with you fully. I'm just sayin'... I know a bunch of people who claim opposite. Talents, I suppose.

Yeah, that was actually my point. I am personally hopeless in any animation programs, but I can come up with some mediocre plot concepts within seconds/minutes.

Still, it takes the same amount of talent to do both.

Modifié par Phaedon, 20 mai 2011 - 11:58 .

[GodWood]

[quote]Phaedon wrote...
[quote]GodWood wrote...
Centred on character development that was irrelevent to the main Reaper plot and was more or less just filler.[/quote]Hold it right there.
A second act maintains the threat/overreaching plot, focuses on collecting resources that will be important in the third act (squadmates, Normandy SR2 etc) , analyzes themes that will be dominant in the third act (Cerberus, Geth/Quarian conflict, Genophage, Cerberus, etc.) and also analyzes the overreaching plot a bit (nature of Reapers). ME2 didn't do perfectly in those, but it is not fundamentally flawed.[/quote]And ME2 did do this to an extent (Cerberus, Tali's LM, Legion's LM, Mordin's LM etc) it's just that a large chunk did not hence the complaint.
[quote]I'll admit I just wanted to repeat your opening just because.

Honestly I don't even know why I am having this discussion, this isn't even one of my main issues with ME2.
I was just defending these 'morons' for complaining about it.

I'm too tired.
[/quote]Saying that a game has "no plot" or "horrible plot" is an extreme and non-constructive position that doesn't deserve being defended.[/quote]Indeed.
But saying a lot of these companions lacked a direct enough relevence to the plot is a valid complaint.

[Phaedon]

GodWood wrote...
And ME2 did do this to an extent (Cerberus, Tali's LM, Legion's LM, Mordin's LM etc) it's just that a large chunk did not hence the complaint.

Still, the other ones are connected to either character development (which is not really necessary for a second act, though) and resource collecting.

Indeed.
But saying a lot of these companions lacked a direct enough relevence to the plot is a valid complaint.

Maybe. But that does apply to both games.
It is true that the link between, let's say, Jack and the Reapers is weak, but is the opposite really necessary?

It just seems almost impossible to have everyone to be connected to the overreaching threat/question as much as Liara was in ME1.

Modifié par Phaedon, 20 mai 2011 - 12:03 .

[CroGamer002]

Gatt9 wrote...

1.  Gameplay defines the game,  ME2 wants to be a cover based shooter,  GoW is a cover based shooter.

In GoW you have to stay in cover to survive and shoot.

In ME2 it's mostly the same ONLY if you play Soldier class.
Playing with different classes is whole different story.

But even with Soldier class there are few differences, like for example you powers for guns and is far more easier to go CQC. Or should I say, not impossible do to game mechanic.

2.  ME2 doesn't have any stats.  None of the "Stats" in ME2 matter,

Contradiction spotted.

because they're all related to random special abilities don't provide a gateway to higher level content,  in fact,  there is no high level content.  Like Gears of War,  if you could get to the end boss at level 1 you could kill him,  you would just have to use a little more ammo.

You can say the same thing for ME1.

3.  Considering that the thread was about ME2 and it's rating,  and my post that started this was about how ME2 clearly didn't deserve the GotY awards and why,  and instead you're arguing about something completely different,  you really should be carefull about asking for people to be banned for derailing.

Becasue you're posts are off-topic.
I almost got temp-ban for that long time ago.

[Chaos Gate]

Phaedon wrote...

Chaos Gate wrote...

Well, I've played Gears of War - it's one of my favourite franchises. And I feel that the likening of Mass Effect 2 to Gears of War is completely justified, IMO. Because while the ME series has always been a shooter/RPG hybrid, ME2 completely threw this balance out of sync. It was about 85% action, 15% RPG (and that's being generous). And so yes, I believe ME2 was more akin to Gears of War than Mass Effect.

Yes, I remember how you think that a deep RPG experience is about stats.
Why don't you check the interview the TES creators had about RPG elements?

ME1 is not a hybrid, not even close, it has RPG mechanics defining shooter mechanics. The most important part of a shooter is to have direct control over the protagonist in combat. ME1 limits that. A lot.

In fact, you don't even justify how it's anything like GoW there. It has enhanced shooter combat, therefore it is GoW? Heh

While ME2 could invest with more stats on things that the player can't control, these stats are still there, and the shooter elements are seperate than with the RPG ones, hence a true hybrid.

I love how in every one of these threads that has positive news about ME2, the same people come and try to derail them, each time. And yet, this isn't ban-able, somehow.

I wasn't trying to derail anything, and I don't see why I should be banned. I was simply replying to something you said that I disagreed with.

Secondly, please don't misquote me. I said that stats are a part of the RPG experience, not all of it. It's been that way since Dungeons and Dragons. You say it like it's a bad thing, trying to paint everyone who points this out in a negative light, and I have no idea why. I stand by my view, and I am unashamed. And anyway, why did you bring up stats to begin with?

ME1 is most definitely a hybrid, in my view, because it brough shooting mechanics and RPG elements together. It wasn't perfect, but it was still quite harmonious and a joy to behold and play. ME2, on the other hand, was more shooter than RPG - and that's obvious, IMO. Not just for a want of stats, but storyline, exploration, available skills, game world, and lots of other things that it just felt deficient in. In comparison to ME1, it's much more shooter than RPG, without question. ME2 is not very much of a hybrid, as you say, because it's too skewed to one side, to the detriment of the other.

Why is justification needed when comparing ME2 to Gears of War? I only ask this because, to me, the similarities are undeniable. I don't know how others can miss this. As I said, ME2 just doesn't have enough RPG in it to dance with its rugged gunplay, and so it feels more like a shooter than an epic adventure.

Modifié par Chaos Gate, 20 mai 2011 - 12:07 .

[mi55ter]

javierabegazo wrote...

Wow, that is impressive. It's even more exciting seeing as ME3 is going to build on ME2's and ME1's strengths.


I feel that ME1's clunky combat pushed many people away from the incredible storyline, and ME2 remedied that, though leaving behind RPG elements, and now ME3's going to be a glorious marriage of them both.

That's my case, actually. I tried ME1 out after finishing 2 a couple of times, then when I realized how much of my time and patience it was going to eat up, I left it, in spite of its importance. Now, if Bioware re-worked it with 2's combat system, that would be awesome, I would definitely buy that product. Would it ever happen??

[candidate88766]

Phaedon wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Indeed.
But saying a lot of these companions lacked a direct enough relevence to the plot is a valid complaint.

Maybe. But that does apply to both games.
It is true that the link between, let's say, Jack and the Reapers is weak, but is the opposite really necessary?

It just seems almost impossible to have everyone to be connected to the overreaching threat/question as much as Liara was in ME1.

I think some of the characters in ME2 were there to explore the galaxy and the universe Bioware has created. They give a face to dilemmas like the Genophage and the Geth. many of the characters were involved with cerberus, and they were done so that the player could explore more about Cerberus and their motives, and allow us to explore how far we'd be willing to go save the galaxy. Jack's importance to the story was helping players decide whether Cerberus' end goal of saving humanity is worth the price paid in doing so. It may not be directly connected to the Reapers but she is strongly connected to themes that underly the games.

This is a bit of a tangent, but personally, i've found the Mass Effect games and particularly the second one to be an exploration of Consequentialism vs Deontology - whether the morality of a choice can be defined soley by the end goal or by the means of getting there. With virtually every decision in the games the end goal has been 'good', but they explore the moral grey area of whether the ends justify the means or not. Many of the characters in ME2 help to do that.

Modifié par candidate88766, 20 mai 2011 - 12:13 .

[theSteeeeeels]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I hate every time someone says that the character missions brings nothing to the plot with the Reapers.

It's called subplots, you morons.

how can it be a subplot if it takes up 80% of the game

[theSteeeeeels]

Phaedon wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I hate every time someone says that the character missions brings nothing to the plot with the Reapers.

It's called subplots, you morons.

I also love how they claim that ME2 squadmates are not integral to the plot. Collecting them is an objective.

Collecting ME1 squaddies? Tali is an obvious plot device, Ashley just transfers to your ship for some reason, Wrex and Garrus offer no real explanation of why they should come with you, etc.

you think collecting those 12 squad mates was integral to the plot? do you know what a plot is ?

[CroGamer002]

theSteeeeeels wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I hate every time someone says that the character missions brings nothing to the plot with the Reapers.

It's called subplots, you morons.

how can it be a subplot if it takes up 80% of the game

Since they're skipable maybe?

[theSteeeeeels]

Phaedon wrote...

candidate88766 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I also love how they claim that ME2 squadmates are not integral to the plot. Collecting them is an objective.

Collecting ME1 squaddies? Tali is an obvious plot device, Ashley just transfers to your ship for some reason, Wrex and Garrus offer no real explanation of why they should come with you, etc.

I'd disagree a bit: Garrus joins you as he is investigating Saren and Liara is clearly integral to the plot with her Prothean knowledge. I'd agree that Tali and Wrex are only vaguely tied to the storyline though, and Kaiden and Ashley are just kinda, well, there but not doing a lot.

Why would one of C-Sec's finest detectives abandon his job and join a Spectre all of a sudden. Sure, there are some reasons, but when Garrus joins you, he does that in order to hunt for leads, he shouldn't follow you aboard the Normandy. Or at least, he should "update" his explanation.

Liara is integral to the plot, yes, but so is everyone in the ME2 team as well. They are all part of the team that TIM told you to recruit, and for a character-based game, I would like to think that their character development is a major part of the plot as well.

sooo.... me1 we got our squad mates and then got onto the story....  me2 we spent the whole game getting squad mates and breast feeding them

[theSteeeeeels]

Mesina2 wrote...

theSteeeeeels wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

I hate every time someone says that the character missions brings nothing to the plot with the Reapers.

It's called subplots, you morons.

how can it be a subplot if it takes up 80% of the game

Since they're skipable maybe?

right and then i'm left with 2 hours of gameplay

[Tommy6860]

Chaos Gate wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Chaos Gate wrote...

Well, I've played Gears of War - it's one of my favourite franchises. And I feel that the likening of Mass Effect 2 to Gears of War is completely justified, IMO. Because while the ME series has always been a shooter/RPG hybrid, ME2 completely threw this balance out of sync. It was about 85% action, 15% RPG (and that's being generous). And so yes, I believe ME2 was more akin to Gears of War than Mass Effect.

Yes, I remember how you think that a deep RPG experience is about stats.
Why don't you check the interview the TES creators had about RPG elements?

ME1 is not a hybrid, not even close, it has RPG mechanics defining shooter mechanics. The most important part of a shooter is to have direct control over the protagonist in combat. ME1 limits that. A lot.

In fact, you don't even justify how it's anything like GoW there. It has enhanced shooter combat, therefore it is GoW? Heh

While ME2 could invest with more stats on things that the player can't control, these stats are still there, and the shooter elements are seperate than with the RPG ones, hence a true hybrid.

I love how in every one of these threads that has positive news about ME2, the same people come and try to derail them, each time. And yet, this isn't ban-able, somehow.

I wasn't trying to derail anything, and I don't see why I should be banned. I was simply replying to something you said that I disagreed with.

Secondly, please don't misquote me. I said that stats are a part of the RPG experience, not all of it. It's been that way since Dungeons and Dragons. You say it like it's a bad thing, trying to paint everyone who points this out in a negative light, and I have no idea why. I stand by my view, and I am unashamed. And anyway, why did you bring up stats to begin with?

ME1 is most definitely a hybrid, in my view, because it brough shooting mechanics and RPG elements together. It wasn't perfect, but it was still quite harmonious and a joy to behold and play. ME2, on the other hand, was more shooter than RPG - and that's obvious, IMO. Not just for a want of stats, but storyline, exploration, available skills, game world, and lots of other things that it just felt deficient in. In comparison to ME1, it's much more shooter than RPG, without question. ME2 is not very much of a hybrid, as you say, because it's too skewed to one side, to the detriment of the other.

Why is justification needed when comparing ME2 to Gears of War? I only ask this because, to me, the similarities are undeniable. I don't know how others can miss this. As I said, ME2 just doesn't have enough RPG in it to dance with its rugged gunplay, and so it feels more like a shooter than an epic adventure.

I agree with this for the most part, and you are totally entitled to what your opinion of ME2 is as well :-). Having said that, while I really disaliked the direction ME2 took from ME1, after playing it a second time (because I was so frustrated with the theme, I just breezed through it the first time), I really listened to all fo the dialogue, made much of the comapnion interactions and the story; it all flowed so well for me and the story was very relevant to the first. Many choices I made in the game had serious implications, not only for the end run, but for my squad mates as well and on TIM. And that right there is a very important aspect role playing for me. Hopefully, what Hudson said in adding back more of ME's RPG elements while enhancing the action of ME2  into ME3, should be a treat. How the rest of the story pans out is what I really what to experience.

Having that desire to finish up with ME3, doesn't mean I will purchase it right at release time. The bad taste that DA2 left in my mouth really brought down Bioware for me, no more auto-purchases, but I still love them as a developer and hopefully my friends will tell me to buy it and i trust their opinion on games :-).