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Can Bioware learn anything from Witcher 2? (constructive please)


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#51
Chromie

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Zmajc wrote...

It's the same old story. BioWare is so used that everyone praises them they seem to think that everything they touch turns into gold. After years of being nr 1 RPG developer they got lazy and arogant.

In the other corner we have a young company full of enthusiasts who are really passionate about their games and really really want them to succeed.

I hope Witcher 2 is BioWare's reallity check. You don't determine what's good, your fans do.


Competition is good for us as the consumer. Look at that shooter Call of Duty it dominates the market (I hate it) and look at Battlefield 3. Dice wants their game to succeed so they are working on it after a long time and it has been getting a lot of hype. Arma III (best shooters ever imo) just announced with specs is a niche shooter but it's PC exclusive and does what it does best. Huge online with the most realistic combat systems. Duke Nukem, Rage and many others. 
 
Competition is good for us.

#52
Nithrakis Arcanius

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I just don't see EA giving BioWare a 3 to 4 year development cycle to develop an ambitious new game in an existing franchise. The old BioWare might have taken a risk to do this but I'm not very optimistic about it these days. They are having financial success by pushing out ME & DA games every 18 to 24 months so why would they change it? The fact they have delayed ME3 a few months is somewhat encouraging.

There is a big backlash against DA2 going on in the Internet zeitgeist but is it translating to a reduction in sales? Some are arguing (god -- fox news alert) that there has been a sizable drop off in current DA2 sales (vs DA:O over time) but we probably will not know for sure of the long term effects until DA3 is released. I don't think a negative reaction against DA2 will affect the ME franchise much as ME2 had near universal praise from fans & critics alike (there were negatives but the feedback was still mostly positive).

Then there is a matter of SW:TOR. That game seems to have a huge budget ($80 to $100 million) and I will be amazed if it becomes a huge success (sustained as in WoW). How much of an impact is that type of money sink having on BioWare's other projects?

Bethesda & CD Projekt have the right idea. Focus on one game at a time and give it the resources required to make the best game possible. However, both of these companies are privately owned and do not have to meet the demands of the quarterly stock market cycles. They can afford to gamble on a 3 to 4 year development cycle.

Modifié par Nithrakis Arcanius, 20 mai 2011 - 01:39 .


#53
Chromie

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And that's the problem Bioware is not allowed to control anything now every franchise that was Bioware is now EA's. They have free reign with TOR it seems but Dragon Age no. Casey Hudson is behind Mass Effect so I assume ME3 will be just as good as ME1 and 2.

#54
Eldareus

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I am remaining cautiously optimistic that ME3 will retaining the awesomeness of the previous two titles. I hope they keep the ME2 cover combat system and just expand the RPG elements. However I too am a bit wary of how much influence EA has on the design of Bioware games lately.

One lesson Bioware can learn from the CDPR team is that complex, challenging, and engaging RPGs is not a dead Genre. Sure the RPG market is never as big as the FPS market, but Bioware was known for their fantastic RPGs. I think what a lot of old frustrated Bioware fans here who criticize Bioware are really afraid is Bioware abandoning the RPG market and to join an already saturated me-too FPS market. Heck they are taking a sizable risk joining the MMORPG market.

The new EA - Bioware union seems to be more focused on squeezing as much profit out of their games then they do with pleasing their core RPG fans who have been followed and supported them since their BG days.

It refreshing to too see a company CDPR still craft a game out of the love of making the best game they can knowing their fans would appreciate them rather than worry about the sales numbers first and foremost. That's the final lesson I hope Bioware can learn from the witcher 2 success story.

#55
Nerdage

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*sigh*

The way some of you people talk about EA it's as though they'd steal your thoughts if you took your tinfoil hats off..

If they play the game, they'll learn from it. That's just how design is. You can't compartmentalize memory into "bits to use" and "other", you use it all. And I can't imagine they won't play it, why wouldn't they?

If the question is "Will they use bits of The Witcher in their next games?", then I'd hope not. If they want direct lessons ("We could use this bit" type lessons) I'd say they're better of playing their own back-catalogue than another company's games, if I wanted another company's games I'd buy them instead.

#56
deuce985

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Magic Zarim wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I don't understand why people think Bioware need to license the RED engine. It's not going to automatically make a game good. An engine is just an engine--it simply does what it's told to do. If the content creators can't come up with excellet content,no game engine in the world will save their project.


Certainly true, however, if you read background articles about the reasons for them to create their own engine, you'll find that the engine had been specifically created to allow for the complex story branching and complex npc schedules. The "Engine" isn't just the graphics cruncher.

Yes and CDPROJ didn't have kind words to say about Bioware's engine in the first Witcher too. Notice how they have a lot of generic design in Witcher 1 but Witcher 2 doesn't? Well, they complained the engine had too many bottlenecks, which I find kinda interesting. They use many similarities to Bioware, so I don't think the RED engine would be out of the realm of possibility being licensed. But the main problem with the engine is it isn't built for consoles yet. Or maybe it is because it seems Witcher 2's design had consoles in mind too. At least, it will be easy to port the gameplay to consoles without streamlining anything. The only thing that needs to be toned down is graphics. 

#57
Chromie

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deuce985 wrote...

Magic Zarim wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I don't understand why people think Bioware need to license the RED engine. It's not going to automatically make a game good. An engine is just an engine--it simply does what it's told to do. If the content creators can't come up with excellet content,no game engine in the world will save their project.


Certainly true, however, if you read background articles about the reasons for them to create their own engine, you'll find that the engine had been specifically created to allow for the complex story branching and complex npc schedules. The "Engine" isn't just the graphics cruncher.

Yes and CDPROJ didn't have kind words to say about Bioware's engine in the first Witcher too. Notice how they have a lot of generic design in Witcher 1 but Witcher 2 doesn't? Well, they complained the engine had too many bottlenecks, which I find kinda interesting. They use many similarities to Bioware, so I don't think the RED engine would be out of the realm of possibility being licensed. But the main problem with the engine is it isn't built for consoles yet. Or maybe it is because it seems Witcher 2's design had consoles in mind too. At least, it will be easy to port the gameplay to consoles without streamlining anything. The only thing that needs to be toned down is graphics. 




Everything you need to know about the RED Engine CDProjekt did make an engine that can be easily tuned for consoles.

Modifié par Ringo12, 20 mai 2011 - 06:01 .


#58
deuce985

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Nithrakis Arcanius wrote...

I just don't see EA giving BioWare a 3 to 4 year development cycle to develop an ambitious new game in an existing franchise. The old BioWare might have taken a risk to do this but I'm not very optimistic about it these days. They are having financial success by pushing out ME & DA games every 18 to 24 months so why would they change it? The fact they have delayed ME3 a few months is somewhat encouraging.

There is a big backlash against DA2 going on in the Internet zeitgeist but is it translating to a reduction in sales? Some are arguing (god -- fox news alert) that there has been a sizable drop off in current DA2 sales (vs DA:O over time) but we probably will not know for sure of the long term effects until DA3 is released. I don't think a negative reaction against DA2 will affect the ME franchise much as ME2 had near universal praise from fans & critics alike (there were negatives but the feedback was still mostly positive).

Then there is a matter of SW:TOR. That game seems to have a huge budget ($80 to $100 million) and I will be amazed if it becomes a huge success (sustained as in WoW). How much of an impact is that type of money sink having on BioWare's other projects? I seem to remember one of the devs saying DA2 actually had a bigger team than DA:O by the time it was at the end.

Bethesda & CD Projekt have the right idea. Focus on one game at a time and give it the resources required to make the best game possible. However, both of these companies are privately owned and do not have to meet the demands of the quarterly stock market cycles. They can afford to gamble on a 3 to 4 year development cycle.


They don't need 3-4 year projects to create something like this. You have to take into account CDPRO is a much smaller team that is just passionate. Since EA took over Bioware, they've got huge. They have over 4 dev teams now. I think ME3 itself has two dev teams on it. That helps turn products out faster. However, I'm in firm belief you can't release a RPG in under a year. It needs too much depth compared to a Madden game. Two years for a already established engine/franchise seems right. Maybe 3 years if it is a new engine/IP. Bigger teams definitely help.

Look at history, how many games have truly had amazing quality being only in development for year? Assassin's Creed Brotherhood? Nope. AC2 was a massive improvement over AC1. Why? Because they had a long dev cycle between AC1 where they could polish things. What was AC:B? A expansion. About it. They used the same engine, architecture, practically everything to make a shorter game that to me felt irrelevant. The only thing in the story that mattered was the very ending, everything else almost seemed pointless and a loose end that shouldn't have been there to begin with.

Now, on to Old Republic. This is interesting to me. Being one of(if not most) expensive games developed in history, it hinges on Bioware's survival. This is a ambitious project that will either hit it big or be a huge failure. You do not want this to be a failure. Bioware will start shuffling their teams around, firing and their entire company will be in trouble. So, as Bioware fans, everyone better hope OR is successful. If it is, EA will probably be more inclined to let Bioware do whatever they want. If they want to take 3 years to make DA3 successful, so be it. Whenever you have a MMO that bring steady revenue in, it lets games like this receive more polish. So, either OR will be the best thing that happens to Bioware or the worst thing, IMO.

Modifié par deuce985, 20 mai 2011 - 06:08 .


#59
panzerwzh

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1. Atmosphere: Make it real. make it alive and reasonable.
2. Choice & Consequences. Don't tell a story, let people enjoy/suffer their own choices.

#60
Wrath of Bong

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Why Bioware needs to learn from CD Projekt? EA could just buy them and named them EA Poland, where they will release games every 1-2 years.

#61
FirstSpear

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 Well, I hope that Witcher 2 is illustrative of the fact that one can still make a successful RPG of traditional depth which is still pretty kinetic and exciting. Bethesda, for instance, also produces content which is action-oriented and deep. Mass Effect 2 was a good example of how Bioware CAN make an RPG which is very action oriented and still retain the charm of its predecessor. Having said that, it overcompensated for ME1's junk problem by riping out character managment and decreasing one's options for customizing character stats. The same could be said of DA2, where the combat when from being plodding but deep to, well, Dynasty Warriors. ME should not be Gears, DA should certainly not be dynasty warriors, but there is no reason there can't be a balance.

The point of all this is to say that action and excitement are not incompatible with depth in the modern RPG. Still, I'm not overly optimistic that any of that will have an impact on EA/Bioware. The problem is that EA wants, NEEDS, to show its shareholders that it is either making money or that their product has the potential to do so. It doesn't matter what Witcher 2 or Skyrim do; it won't matter to the EA execs who seem to be influencing Bioware's dev choices. What matters to them is EA's bottom line.

You're right about EA's mind set, Nithrakis. They want yearly returns on an IP, often to the detriment of many of their games, including Madden which is usually the same game every year with one or two new/changed features. But people buy it, EA makes money, their shareholders are fat and happy, and the cycle continues. There's a conflict though: you can't produce a good RPG with a one- or two-year turn around as you can with a FPS or sport game. DA2 is a perfect example how this model fails. They applied the turn around time of a 5-7 hour FPS with a multiplayer system to the RPG genre which has to run from 40-100 hours.So, the dev team just used the ME tech rather than making a new engine or updating the old one. The restraints placed on them caused them to cut corners, like with the recycling environments.

EA has learned to be cynical about their markets: the core will buy the product anyway, so lets change it so that others will like it too no matter if it will alienate Bioware's "base" or produce a crappy product. The thing is, I don't think a action-only gamers will EVER really care about RPGs or Bioware they way the core does, no matter how simplified and action-oriented the games become. I don't think they will come out and buy with the sort of loyalty that you find from guys like myself whose played everything Bioware put of for 15 years. If it's true that lots of DA2s are being traded in and less and less are being bought over time. That's, ironically, the best possible thing for Bioware, because it means that the core RPGer is not keeping the game, more people (i.e. the "broader audience") are buying used, less people are buying DLC. This sort of thing shows that what EA is doing will be disastrous for their bottom line. That's the only way they will learn. That's the only way Bioware can regain full creative and administrative independence: if EA realizes that the old Bioware way is the profitable way.

It's EA's shareholds and the beckoning of quarterly return numbers which are the problem. The thing is, we have an option to protest: wait, buy used, boycott. The hardcore RPGer just needs to stop buying content that doesn't meet his or her standards, regardless of the name attached to development. I won't be buying DA3 or even ME3 until I play enough of them to know if each is the sort of product that I want to support. EA needs to understand that the Bioware brand isn't a licence to print money, or that they can take a core audience for granted. We need to stop supporting crap with our money, otherwise it won't matter how many young, upstart studios are making solid, deep action RPGs and making money from them.

#62
deuce985

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FirstSpear wrote...

 Well, I hope that Witcher 2 is illustrative of the fact that one can still make a successful RPG of traditional depth which is still pretty kinetic and exciting. Bethesda, for instance, also produces content which is action-oriented and deep. Mass Effect 2 was a good example of how Bioware CAN make an RPG which is very action oriented and still retain the charm of its predecessor. Having said that, it overcompensated for ME1's junk problem by riping out character managment and decreasing one's options for customizing character stats. The same could be said of DA2, where the combat when from being plodding but deep to, well, Dynasty Warriors. ME should not be Gears, DA should certainly not be dynasty warriors, but there is no reason there can't be a balance.

The point of all this is to say that action and excitement are not incompatible with depth in the modern RPG. Still, I'm not overly optimistic that any of that will have an impact on EA/Bioware. The problem is that EA wants, NEEDS, to show its shareholders that it is either making money or that their product has the potential to do so. It doesn't matter what Witcher 2 or Skyrim do; it won't matter to the EA execs who seem to be influencing Bioware's dev choices. What matters to them is EA's bottom line.

You're right about EA's mind set, Nithrakis. They want yearly returns on an IP, often to the detriment of many of their games, including Madden which is usually the same game every year with one or two new/changed features. But people buy it, EA makes money, their shareholders are fat and happy, and the cycle continues. There's a conflict though: you can't produce a good RPG with a one- or two-year turn around as you can with a FPS or sport game. DA2 is a perfect example how this model fails. They applied the turn around time of a 5-7 hour FPS with a multiplayer system to the RPG genre which has to run from 40-100 hours.So, the dev team just used the ME tech rather than making a new engine or updating the old one. The restraints placed on them caused them to cut corners, like with the recycling environments.

EA has learned to be cynical about their markets: the core will buy the product anyway, so lets change it so that others will like it too no matter if it will alienate Bioware's "base" or produce a crappy product. The thing is, I don't think a action-only gamers will EVER really care about RPGs or Bioware they way the core does, no matter how simplified and action-oriented the games become. I don't think they will come out and buy with the sort of loyalty that you find from guys like myself whose played everything Bioware put of for 15 years. If it's true that lots of DA2s are being traded in and less and less are being bought over time. That's, ironically, the best possible thing for Bioware, because it means that the core RPGer is not keeping the game, more people (i.e. the "broader audience") are buying used, less people are buying DLC. This sort of thing shows that what EA is doing will be disastrous for their bottom line. That's the only way they will learn. That's the only way Bioware can regain full creative and administrative independence: if EA realizes that the old Bioware way is the profitable way.

It's EA's shareholds and the beckoning of quarterly return numbers which are the problem. The thing is, we have an option to protest: wait, buy used, boycott. The hardcore RPGer just needs to stop buying content that doesn't meet his or her standards, regardless of the name attached to development. I won't be buying DA3 or even ME3 until I play enough of them to know if each is the sort of product that I want to support. EA needs to understand that the Bioware brand isn't a licence to print money, or that they can take a core audience for granted. We need to stop supporting crap with our money, otherwise it won't matter how many young, upstart studios are making solid, deep action RPGs and making money from them.



I agree 100%, very well said.

#63
Romantiq

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Ringo12 wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Magic Zarim wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

I don't understand why people think Bioware need to license the RED engine. It's not going to automatically make a game good. An engine is just an engine--it simply does what it's told to do. If the content creators can't come up with excellet content,no game engine in the world will save their project.


Certainly true, however, if you read background articles about the reasons for them to create their own engine, you'll find that the engine had been specifically created to allow for the complex story branching and complex npc schedules. The "Engine" isn't just the graphics cruncher.

Yes and CDPROJ didn't have kind words to say about Bioware's engine in the first Witcher too. Notice how they have a lot of generic design in Witcher 1 but Witcher 2 doesn't? Well, they complained the engine had too many bottlenecks, which I find kinda interesting. They use many similarities to Bioware, so I don't think the RED engine would be out of the realm of possibility being licensed. But the main problem with the engine is it isn't built for consoles yet. Or maybe it is because it seems Witcher 2's design had consoles in mind too. At least, it will be easy to port the gameplay to consoles without streamlining anything. The only thing that needs to be toned down is graphics. 




Everything you need to know about the RED Engine CDProjekt did make an engine that can be easily tuned for consoles.


One of the guys from that vid has an epic goatee and a long hair. I can already tell he knows what he is doing :P

#64
Bryy_Miller

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Slidell505 wrote...

Image IPB

Choices. That's a decision flow chart for TW2.


Too bad only a few of those actually matter to the endgame.

EDIT: Although, I would *love* to see a detailed chart of what every choice is.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 23 mai 2011 - 10:24 .


#65
Malanek

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Image IPB

Choices. That's a decision flow chart for TW2.


Too bad only a few of those actually matter to the endgame.

EDIT: Although, I would *love* to see a detailed chart of what every choice is.

I've only played through once, but there is once choice relatively early that seems like it will open up a completely different story, I might well be mistaken but I just can't see how the events are going to play out the same way.

#66
Bryy_Miller

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Well... they kind of have to. No matter what choices you make, the main plotline must remain the same.

#67
Malanek

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

Well... they kind of have to. No matter what choices you make, the main plotline must remain the same.

How many times have you played it? I can't see how the main plot line can be the same. Sure the same events are set in motion by the various antagonists, but your action towards the end of flotsam (earlyish in the game) seems to me that the game will be taken in a very different direction. I might be wrong and the choice could only be an illusion.

#68
Bryy_Miller

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Malanek999 wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Well... they kind of have to. No matter what choices you make, the main plotline must remain the same.

How many times have you played it? I can't see how the main plot line can be the same. Sure the same events are set in motion by the various antagonists, but your action towards the end of flotsam (earlyish in the game) seems to me that the game will be taken in a very different direction. I might be wrong and the choice could only be an illusion.


Yes, different things happen, but the endgame is always going to be the same. The beginning of act 2 will always be the same. You are always presented with the same story. 

The only real, unrestricted choice in RPGs is character customization, or picking what power-up/ally to bring into battle.

Everything else is a deviation that ultimately must follow the path that the game has put you on.

#69
Malanek

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I'll have to see and get back to you. I don't agree that it has to be this way, although it is much less work to do it like that.

#70
ms_sunlight

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mrcrusty wrote...

Magic Zarim wrote...

Hadn't SW:TOR already topped a $300,000,000 budget by now?


Claims made on a blog of a former Mythic employee that have yet to be substantiated. $300 million sounds ridiculous, to be perfecty honset.

Something in the ballpark of $50-100 million is more realistic. Yet still absurdly expensive.

To be on topic, Witcher 2 had a budget of like $10 million.

Maybe Bioware can learn to make do with less money.

:P


Bioware certainly could if they moved their game studio to Poland where average salaries are a lot lower than Canada.  It's not something you can make a straightforward comparison about.  See the following:

www.worldsalaries.org/computerprogrammer.shtml

#71
Bryy_Miller

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Ringo12 wrote...

Zmajc wrote...

It's the same old story. BioWare is so used that everyone praises them they seem to think that everything they touch turns into gold. After years of being nr 1 RPG developer they got lazy and arogant.

In the other corner we have a young company full of enthusiasts who are really passionate about their games and really really want them to succeed.

I hope Witcher 2 is BioWare's reallity check. You don't determine what's good, your fans do.


Competition is good for us as the consumer. Look at that shooter Call of Duty it dominates the market (I hate it) and look at Battlefield 3. Dice wants their game to succeed so they are working on it after a long time and it has been getting a lot of hype. Arma III (best shooters ever imo) just announced with specs is a niche shooter but it's PC exclusive and does what it does best. Huge online with the most realistic combat systems. Duke Nukem, Rage and many others. 
 
Competition is good for us.


Exactly. Video game companies don't make video games just because.

Malanek999 wrote...
 I don't agree that it has to be this way


Well then, what other way do you propose? I'm honestly asking.

Video games are not real life.

#72
panzerwzh

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FirstSpear wrote...

 Well, I hope that Witcher 2 is illustrative of the fact that one can still make a successful RPG of traditional depth which is still pretty kinetic and exciting. Bethesda, for instance, also produces content which is action-oriented and deep. Mass Effect 2 was a good example of how Bioware CAN make an RPG which is very action oriented and still retain the charm of its predecessor. Having said that, it overcompensated for ME1's junk problem by riping out character managment and decreasing one's options for customizing character stats. The same could be said of DA2, where the combat when from being plodding but deep to, well, Dynasty Warriors. ME should not be Gears, DA should certainly not be dynasty warriors, but there is no reason there can't be a balance.

The point of all this is to say that action and excitement are not incompatible with depth in the modern RPG. Still, I'm not overly optimistic that any of that will have an impact on EA/Bioware. The problem is that EA wants, NEEDS, to show its shareholders that it is either making money or that their product has the potential to do so. It doesn't matter what Witcher 2 or Skyrim do; it won't matter to the EA execs who seem to be influencing Bioware's dev choices. What matters to them is EA's bottom line.

You're right about EA's mind set, Nithrakis. They want yearly returns on an IP, often to the detriment of many of their games, including Madden which is usually the same game every year with one or two new/changed features. But people buy it, EA makes money, their shareholders are fat and happy, and the cycle continues. There's a conflict though: you can't produce a good RPG with a one- or two-year turn around as you can with a FPS or sport game. DA2 is a perfect example how this model fails. They applied the turn around time of a 5-7 hour FPS with a multiplayer system to the RPG genre which has to run from 40-100 hours.So, the dev team just used the ME tech rather than making a new engine or updating the old one. The restraints placed on them caused them to cut corners, like with the recycling environments.

EA has learned to be cynical about their markets: the core will buy the product anyway, so lets change it so that others will like it too no matter if it will alienate Bioware's "base" or produce a crappy product. The thing is, I don't think a action-only gamers will EVER really care about RPGs or Bioware they way the core does, no matter how simplified and action-oriented the games become. I don't think they will come out and buy with the sort of loyalty that you find from guys like myself whose played everything Bioware put of for 15 years. If it's true that lots of DA2s are being traded in and less and less are being bought over time. That's, ironically, the best possible thing for Bioware, because it means that the core RPGer is not keeping the game, more people (i.e. the "broader audience") are buying used, less people are buying DLC. This sort of thing shows that what EA is doing will be disastrous for their bottom line. That's the only way they will learn. That's the only way Bioware can regain full creative and administrative independence: if EA realizes that the old Bioware way is the profitable way.

It's EA's shareholds and the beckoning of quarterly return numbers which are the problem. The thing is, we have an option to protest: wait, buy used, boycott. The hardcore RPGer just needs to stop buying content that doesn't meet his or her standards, regardless of the name attached to development. I won't be buying DA3 or even ME3 until I play enough of them to know if each is the sort of product that I want to support. EA needs to understand that the Bioware brand isn't a licence to print money, or that they can take a core audience for granted. We need to stop supporting crap with our money, otherwise it won't matter how many young, upstart studios are making solid, deep action RPGs and making money from them.




Bravo! Thumbs up!

#73
Bryy_Miller

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Unless you guys have majored in business, I really doubt that you can write lengthy posts about what EA is doing wrong.

#74
Zmajc

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Bryy_Miller wrote...

Unless you guys have majored in business, I really doubt that you can write lengthy posts about what EA is doing wrong.


Since EA is in red numbers they're obviously doing something wrong. Also as users and gamerss we can give feedback as to what they're doing wrong from our, the consumer's stand point.

You don't  need to major in business for that.

#75
Herbert West

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1. No DRM,
2. Millions of people pirate your game.
3. ???
4. Profit!