650 réponses à ce sujet

[AngryFrozenWater]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't care what paraphrase system is being used or what company made the game, but if "Very Funny." leads to "**** you..." in the very first line of dialogue in any game I'm going to be among the first in line pointing it out as a failure to convey the substance of the following line.

That's one of the examples where I sat there going "wut", there's quite a few others I've experienced which were equally jarring.

I pick "Hey! I'm a mage!" She goes "I have friends who are mages". I sat there going wut?

John doesn't allow snarky remarks for obvious reasons, but I like to point out that the intention of posts from the above gentlemen are intended to derail this thread.

[In Exile]

Alistairlover94 wrote..
I believe that is what is called "consequences to your actions". DA2 was really, really in need of those. Handing over Isabela to The Arishok is effectively negated by her escaping. And Hawke should have actually said something similar to the paraphrase. She would've gotten hauled off by the templars, and we could've gotten a quest where seh's an escaped apostate. Much more interesting.

But the consequence has to be halfway coherent.

If the dialogue choice is : "Let's go" and then the PC starts barking like a dog and is arrested, sure, that has a consequence, but it's incoherent and unpredictable. The player has to have to understand and be able to predict how their character will behave.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't know if that's the scene you're talking about, but in what I have in mind, Geralt was clearly joking with Dandelion and was mocking him, which they do to each other often. It was not an insulting FU but a friendly one.

It was Roche, and it was the very first line Gerald speaks during the interrogation in the prologue.  As a player at that point, I had zero knowledge of any relationship between him and Geralt.  He was "dude who broght me to interrogation then offered protagonist a handshake while he was cuffed."

Didn't try it.
Doesn't seem that far off from the paraphrase though, as I knew that "very funny" was going to be sarcastic. I do nto think Geralt sounded insulting when saying that.

But that's an example of bad paraphrasing. For the most part however, I did not have any problems with the paraphrasing.

And it could be what tmp said, a translation problem.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 30 mai 2011 - 10:11 .

[Dave of Canada]

Alistairlover94 wrote...


I believe that is what is called "consequences to your actions".

Yeah, I understand that. Though I'd understand it more if I had picked an option to make Geralt attack, though simply picking the option which appeared intimidating resulted in him unsheathing his sword and getting killed in a cutscene outside my control.

It's like if you picked "I think mages are cool" and suddenly Hawke goes "I'm a mage, arrest me!". It's interesting but there's no way the logic can jump from paraphrase to action, leaving the player confused by the experience.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mai 2011 - 10:12 .

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

I can appreciate that something is lost in translation when you go from one language to another. But how does insulting someone change to "Very funny?"

Beats me; "very funny" does work as something one could say in that particular context, but it completely doesn't match what's being said. I'd guess perhaps the translators received earlier version of the text, then changes were made and somehow they failed to update that part of translation to reflect it.

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
It is still inferior to actually showing the line, however.

Like I said: you can not buy into the idea that there is a trade-off between repetition and clarity, making the whole attempt moot. But if you take that issue seriously, then the full line is greatly inferior, to the poin that it actively harms enjoyment.

The ideal would be to have both options at a time: show the paraphrase for those with subvocalization issues, mouse hover /controller pointing for a couple seconds (it shouldn't be immediate to avoid drawing attention on itself unless intended) drops the line's associated subtitle.
Both sides get what they want.

In Exile wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
That said, I don't really careas long as the same sentiment follows the paraphrase. And I do think that the BioWare house rules about not using the same words as in the following line ought to be abandoned. The "do the paraphrases in isolation from the context" idea - not sure if that was Sylvius or Exile's - is one I'd endorse, too.

I think that was Sylvius or Waka.

It was Sylvius.

[Dave of Canada]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

DA2 did that too. A lot, IIRC.

Honest question: How so? From what I understand, the worst that occurs within DA2 is that the paraphrase and words spoken often times don't match but it never actually forces Hawke to act or do something.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 30 mai 2011 - 10:15 .

[TEWR]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote..
I believe that is what is called "consequences to your actions". DA2 was really, really in need of those. Handing over Isabela to The Arishok is effectively negated by her escaping. And Hawke should have actually said something similar to the paraphrase. She would've gotten hauled off by the templars, and we could've gotten a quest where seh's an escaped apostate. Much more interesting.

But the consequence has to be halfway coherent.

If the dialogue choice is : "Let's go" and then the PC starts barking like a dog and is arrested, sure, that has a consequence, but it's incoherent and unpredictable. The player has to have to understand and be able to predict how their character will behave.

Which is why I dislike the dialouge wheel. It doesn't allow me to predict the character's actions/words. While a silent PC and the dialouge list, did.

which really means that we should go back to the listed responses, though please keep the voiced protagonist. Or alternatively use my idea and drop the paraphrases but make what's shown on the wheel a snippet of the actual line that's said.

[Xewaka]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...
DA2 did that too. A lot, IIRC.

Honest question: How so? From what I understand, the worst that occurs within DA2 is that the paraphrase and words spoken often times don't match but it never actually forces Hawke to act or do something.

Apostitute quest in act 1. There's a combat icon paraphrase (die) and an action icon paraphrase (let go). The action icon paraphrase ends with "MURDER KNIFE! ENGAGE!"

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Bioware has pretty much stated the silent protagonist is gone.

I haven't seen this.

And even if I had, I wouldn't believe them.  They're generally quite bad at predicting the features in their games.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 mai 2011 - 10:41 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Xewaka wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The "do the paraphrases in isolation from the context" idea - not sure if that was Sylvius or Exile's - is one I'd endorse, too.

I think that was Sylvius or Waka.

It was Sylvius.

And I still think it's a good idea.  Having different writers write the paraphrases one at a time prevents their knowledge of the rest of the conversation from biasing their interpretation of the paraphrase.

The player doesn't have that knowledge, so the paraphrase needs to be written to make sense to someone who doesn't have that knowledge.

Giving us the full line would still be better, though.

[Aradace]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Bioware has pretty much stated the silent protagonist is gone.

I haven't seen this.

And even if I had, I wouldn't believe them.  They're generally quite bad at predicting the features in their games.

I think they may really mean it, this time. Unless David Gaider suddenly gets a change of heart(which I highly doubt he will).

Someone's in denial.  And denial, isnt just a river in Egypt.  Out of all the speculation I will ever make for DA3, this is one thing that I will say that there is absolutely 0% chance that Im wrong.  You will not see a silent protagonist for DA3.  End of story.  If that idea is unattractive to you, then dont play it.

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
Beats me; "very funny" does work as something one could say in that particular context, but it completely doesn't match what's being said. I'd guess perhaps the translators received earlier version of the text, then changes were made and somehow they failed to update that part of translation to reflect it.

I speak about 2 1/2 languages, so I can be appreciative of how hard it is to convey nuance. I can see how very funny could be an annoyed/aggravated response, but it just fails to convey the agression.

Alistairlover94 wrote...
Which is why I dislike the dialouge
wheel. It doesn't allow me to predict the character's actions/words.
While a silent PC and the dialouge list, did.

A silent P and list are equally useless.

A good example is the random and unpredictable murder knife in DA:O. My character was a mage who would never melee and get his hands dirty. That action was OOC.

The real solution is to separate action from dialogue choice.

We need an 'action wheel' just like a paraphrase wheel that isn't a QTE.

Xewaka wrote...
The ideal would be to have both options at a
time: show the paraphrase for those with subvocalization issues, mouse
hover /controller pointing for a couple seconds (it shouldn't be
immediate to avoid drawing attention on itself unless intended) drops
the line's associated subtitle.
Both sides get what they want.

Maybe it could be enabled as a tool-tip, showing up at the top of the screen as a subtitle does? In that way, if you don't set it so that the last subtitle shows up while the player picks their dialogue choice, it could be that there isn't ever any overlap between the two.

I take lots of time to think about my choice, and I wouldn't want keeping the mouse cursor over the line to suddenly throw the full line at me,

[Xewaka]

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The ideal would be to have both options at a time: show the paraphrase for those with subvocalization issues, mouse hover /controller pointing for a couple seconds (it shouldn't be immediate to avoid drawing attention on itself unless intended) drops the line's associated subtitle.
Both sides get what they want.

Maybe it could be enabled as a tool-tip, showing up at the top of the screen as a subtitle does? In that way, if you don't set it so that the last subtitle shows up while the player picks their dialogue choice, it could be that there isn't ever any overlap between the two.
I take lots of time to think about my choice, and I wouldn't want keeping the mouse cursor over the line to suddenly throw the full line at me.

That's how Shorts and I envisioned it: appearing where the regular subtitle will.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...

That's how Shorts and I envisioned it: appearing where the regular subtitle will.

I think it's a good compromise. I would still like for the paraphrase to be incorporate at least partly into the spoken line; otherwise players like me (who don't want the line spoiled but don't want the character broken) still have to consider whether the temptation at any point is worth it, because you wouldn't be able to enable the feature while in conversation (though I would say a different solution would just be to let us pause conversations by opening the main menu; TW2 did this).

[Morroian]

Xewaka wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
The ideal would be to have both options at a time: show the paraphrase for those with subvocalization issues, mouse hover /controller pointing for a couple seconds (it shouldn't be immediate to avoid drawing attention on itself unless intended) drops the line's associated subtitle.
Both sides get what they want.

Maybe it could be enabled as a tool-tip, showing up at the top of the screen as a subtitle does? In that way, if you don't set it so that the last subtitle shows up while the player picks their dialogue choice, it could be that there isn't ever any overlap between the two.
I take lots of time to think about my choice, and I wouldn't want keeping the mouse cursor over the line to suddenly throw the full line at me.

That's how Shorts and I envisioned it: appearing where the regular subtitle will.

I also think they should do this, so long as there is a toggle to turn it on and off.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Aradace wrote...

Alistairlover94 wrote...

I think they may really mean it, this time. Unless David Gaider suddenly gets a change of heart(which I highly doubt he will).

Someone's in denial.  And denial, isnt just a river in Egypt.  Out of all the speculation I will ever make for DA3, this is one thing that I will say that there is absolutely 0% chance that Im wrong.  You will not see a silent protagonist for DA3.  End of story.  If that idea is unattractive to you, then dont play it.

DA3?  Sure, it's highly unlikely we'll get a silent protagonist for DA3.  I'd even say it's highly unlikely that we'll be able to disable the DA3 protagonist's voice (they seem wed to the way they construct the audio files, which makes muting just one voice impossible).

But DA3 is one game.  I see no reason to believe that a silent PC is gone forever.

[Tommy6860]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Bioware has pretty much stated the silent protagonist is gone.

I haven't seen this.

And even if I had, I wouldn't believe them.  They're generally quite bad at predicting the features in their games.

Read Mike's second post in this thread

[Zanallen]

PureMethodActor wrote...

You're wrong about ALL elves having Welsh accents. City elves have neutral, americanized accents in Ferelden and the Free Marches, softer voices than the dwarves, but still americanized all the same. For Voice protagonist elves, you need to make the distinction between City and Dalish elves before doing voicework.

For a Dalish elf, yes. However, they could probably get by with origins where all of the options came from the same city. So, for example, a human from Orlais would have a French accent. A city elf born and raised in Orlais, could have a French accent. And a surface dwarf born in Orlais might have a French accent as well. It really depends on whether or not they were taught the common language from an Orleisian or from someone from their native lands.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Maybe it could be enabled as a tool-tip, showing up at the top of the screen as a subtitle does?

Incidentally, here's something else that DA2 does that irritates me.  It calls that text at the top of the screen a "subtitle"

Subtitles appear at the bottom of the screen.  If the text is at the top of the screen, it's a surtitle.

I wish they were subtitles.  I'd find them easier to read if they were subtitles.