650 réponses à ce sujet

[haroldhardluck]

David Gaider wrote...
Should we have put those variations into the story? Possibly. You seem to think a talking pig would work as well, however, so maybe you have a better idea of how it works than I do.

How about a marketing experiment for DA3? Let the regular game have a human PC and make elven and dwarven PCs available as a DLC and see how many people demanding non-human options will back up their words with money.

Harold

[KennethAFTopp]

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

A good writer would've found a way/reason . or if you guys had had enough time, honestly though I disagree with your angle on the story, or at least the execution.

[Alex Kershaw]

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

Wow - I expected better from you Mr. Gaider. How is that a valid argument? It's on the same lines as 'the reason why the whole game is in one city is because the whole story takes place in one city'. We know. That's the problem. As an extreme example, writing a dull story that takes place in one room isn't an excuse for having a game that takes place in one room.

A game's quality comes from many factors, and in an RPG, customisation, choice and exploration are three of high importance. It's up to you to write a story within the limitations of those factors - if it doesn't allow customisation, choice or exploration, for example, then it's going to take away from the game's quality.

I'd actually prefer to think that you simply didn't have enough resources than think that the entire game was dumbed down simply because you were stubborn about using a particular story, particualrly when the story in question isn't going to be winning any awards any time soon...

[Faust1979]

I hope they keep the main character voiced. I never noticed anything really major from picking the difference races except your origin story would be different other than that it didn't really have any major impact on the main story of the game. But other games can feature different races as a main character

[Drachasor]

Faust1979 wrote...

I hope they keep the main character voiced. I never noticed anything really major from picking the difference races except your origin story would be different other than that it didn't really have any major impact on the main story of the game. But other games can feature different races as a main character

Imagine a DA game where they take that time to each origin story, and put it into adding unique quests, problems, and other issues for each race/origin throughout the game.  That's how you get it to really feel like a larger impact, imho.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

Wow - I expected better from you Mr. Gaider. 

:lol:

[element eater]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Mute at least allows you to make the character good, regardless of whether the designers did and regardless of whether you agree with the designers about what a good character is.

A voiced PC leaves you stuck with the character they designed.

i concur
   

[Ariella]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

A good writer would've found a way/reason . or if you guys had had enough time, honestly though I disagree with your angle on the story, or at least the execution.

A good writer tells the story he or she wants to tell, not throw different variables in just because others want it.

[Ariella]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

I'd actually prefer to think that you simply didn't have enough resources than think that the entire game was dumbed down simply because you were stubborn about using a particular story, particualrly when the story in question isn't going to be winning any awards any time soon...

Why shouldn't Bioware tell the story they wanted to? There are a lot of games that get along fine without customization of race: Mass Effect, The Witcher, KotOR, PST. In fact two of the four even go so much without customization of gender or even look, and they're considered standards of the genre.

You didn't like the game, fine. But claiming the game was dumbed down, especially in the face of those four games, is just silly.

[deuce985]

Personally, I appreciate the voiced PC. If it meant sacrificing race customization to have a voiced PC, I'm all for it. Which Gaider points to it isn't. I've never really been a fan of the silent PC, despite them being a reflection of you. I like hearing my PC respond, whether it be sarcastic, sadistic or w/e.

Also, I definitely can see what Mr. Gaider said is being true. I've done a little modeling myself and they would have fit all armor/weapon models on a dwarf. That could take a lot of time up. Considering the deadline and shorter than normal dev cycle, I think it was logical. Probably wasn't something high on Bioware's list either.

[KennethAFTopp]

Ariella wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

A good writer would've found a way/reason . or if you guys had had enough time, honestly though I disagree with your angle on the story, or at least the execution.

A good writer tells the story he or she wants to tell, not throw different variables in just because others want it.

Of course, that too, but a good writer also takes sensible critique to heart. Now that is beside the matter of whether Hawke could've been a dwarf or Elf.
I must admit that the idea of seeing this story from a whole 'nother perspective intrigues me and I got some actual ideas as to how one would go about handling a multi race Hawke.

[Drasanil]

haroldhardluck wrote...

If this is a fact, then where is the evidence that shows it? Given all the postings for a non-human option in this forum, the "fact" would seem to be that humans were not perceived as the default and was not the safe generic option.

Because one doesn't contradict the other? Asking for a non-human option does not not mean that the human option isn't percieved as the default one. Really your logic is rather faulty on that one. 

First of all the number of times people have said that Cousland just "felt" like it was the right choice, as opposed to any other origin likely put together, then there's the fact that human is literally the default as in it's the thing that the character creation screen starts off with and then there are the lore circumstances where the game takes place in a human nation and that the vast majority of people in said nation would be human.  It's pretty safe to say human was percieved as the default even if it officially wasn't intended to be. I believe as similar scenario happened with ME where the most used character was Male Soldier Shepard simply because it was the first on the list.

You contradict yourself here if the city elf origin is your default.

No I don't. I qualified personally, where as the vast majority of sentiment expressed had it being the Cousland one feeling like the "right" or default option. Just because I personally feel different doesn't change the state of things.

Attack people for being stupid, even fictional people, only shows that you are comfortable with belittling others as a way of debate.

Yes and I'm sure if pappa-Cousland were a real living person his feelings would be terribly hurt. As it is that wasn't an attack on "people" it was an attack on the the plot behind the Human Noble Origin itself, and yes I stand behind the fact that the Couslands were twits for doing what they did.

This makes people either lose respect for you or attack you in turn.

Harold

You have a really odd way of thinking about this, honestly, critizing a (set of) fictional character(s) is perfectly valid. I'm pretty sure they don't have thoughts or feelings to hurt.

Really, you're either being purposefully thick or you need to brush up on your reading comprehension and yes that was a justified personal criticism based on the evidence you just presented in your post, in case you're wondering.

Modifié par Drasanil, 22 mai 2011 - 02:50 .

[Ariella]

KennethAFTopp wrote...

Ariella wrote...

KennethAFTopp wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

A good writer would've found a way/reason . or if you guys had had enough time, honestly though I disagree with your angle on the story, or at least the execution.

A good writer tells the story he or she wants to tell, not throw different variables in just because others want it.

Of course, that too, but a good writer also takes sensible critique to heart. Now that is beside the matter of whether Hawke could've been a dwarf or Elf.
I must admit that the idea of seeing this story from a whole 'nother perspective intrigues me and I got some actual ideas as to how one would go about handling a multi race Hawke.

What do you want him to do? Re-write the entire story now? I mean I have some ideas on how to deal differently with the Champion title, and the Vicount in act 2, but I'm not expecting the writing team to rewrite the story or say what they came up with was wrong because I have some different ideas.

Critiques come after the fact, but that's not what we're talking about. You said a good writer would have figured out how, but as Mr. Gaider points out, race changes variables besides just who the protagonist is.

And it's not like we weren't told from the beginning that Hawke was going to be human.

[Drasanil]

Ariella wrote...


What do you want him to do? Re-write the entire story now? I mean I have some ideas on how to deal differently with the Champion title, and the Vicount in act 2, but I'm not expecting the writing team to rewrite the story or say what they came up with was wrong because I have some different ideas.

No, of course not. The point however is that such a complete overhaul would most certainly not be needed, or have been needed during development, to have it work with an elf or dwarf. What's done is done, but don't act like the story is so fragile or perfectly done that it would have totally destroyed it.

And it's not like we weren't told from the beginning that Hawke was going to be human.

That we were, and when some forumites protested, I distinctly remember the writers saying they "tried it" and that the story just absolutely wouldn't work with an elf or dwarf. Which turned out to be false. 

[TiaraBlade]

I prefer to have a voiced protagonist. In DA:O, my Warden just seemed so distance when surrounded by other voiced characters; very jarring in conversations.

[Nefla]

I liked both having a voiced protagonist AND having the choice of origins. In an ideal world the development cycle would be long and we could have multiple races and origins that were also voiced. As it is I would greatly prefer the replay value of the many races and origins to having a voiced protagonist.

[erynnar]

Ariella wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

I'd actually prefer to think that you simply didn't have enough resources than think that the entire game was dumbed down simply because you were stubborn about using a particular story, particualrly when the story in question isn't going to be winning any awards any time soon...

Why shouldn't Bioware tell the story they wanted to? There are a lot of games that get along fine without customization of race: Mass Effect, The Witcher, KotOR, PST. In fact two of the four even go so much without customization of gender or even look, and they're considered standards of the genre.

You didn't like the game, fine. But claiming the game was dumbed down, especially in the face of those four games, is just silly.

Which story was it? The strange thaig that pointed towards magic using dwarves, and more background on our little Deep Roads foundling Sandal? Or the Qunari and a certain companion's comments that they could be preparing to throw out the treaties of old and invade? Or the mage/templar conflict? 

Any oneof those stories would have been worthy of telling, and telling well. But we got a disjointed mess of the three with nothing really holding them together, save my paper dolly Hawke. And she did a ****** poor job of being the glue that bound them all together (and as a writer yourself, and a damn good one, you know that is not good story telling).

[aduellist]

erynnar wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

I'd actually prefer to think that you simply didn't have enough resources than think that the entire game was dumbed down simply because you were stubborn about using a particular story, particualrly when the story in question isn't going to be winning any awards any time soon...

Why shouldn't Bioware tell the story they wanted to? There are a lot of games that get along fine without customization of race: Mass Effect, The Witcher, KotOR, PST. In fact two of the four even go so much without customization of gender or even look, and they're considered standards of the genre.

You didn't like the game, fine. But claiming the game was dumbed down, especially in the face of those four games, is just silly.

Which story was it? The strange thaig that pointed towards magic using dwarves, and more background on our little Deep Roads foundling Sandal? Or the Qunari and a certain companion's comments that they could be preparing to throw out the treaties of old and invade? Or the mage/templar conflict? 

Any oneof those stories would have been worthy of telling, and telling well. But we got a disjointed mess of the three with nothing really holding them together, save my paper dolly Hawke. And she did a ****** poor job of being the glue that bound them all together (and as a writer yourself, and a damn good one, you know that is not good story telling).

Concur with the above regarding the story.

Regarding voiced vs silent, I far prefer silent.  Voiced presents some additional factors that can greatly reduce game enjoyment.  In my case, it's the male Hawke voice.  It grates on me so badly that I couldn't stand it longer than through Act 1.

[erynnar]

Same here aduellist, except, I liked my fem Hawke voice but had to make the same face for the two play throughs (rogue, mage) because that voice went with that face. That really hurt replayability (I don't want to screw with the sliders...again) and immersiveness.

I get the whole paper cut out silent mute thing some people felt about their Wardens, I do. But I didn't care they were mute, because they weren't, I spoke for them and felt for them. And each one was unique in personality and voice. I guess I just lived in my head a lot as a kid (especially putting myself in the characters of books and being them) so I thought the non-voiced was just fine. I treated my Warden as a protagonist from a book, and I was them.

[KLUME777]

I would definitely be willing to ditch VO for DA3.

In fact, me buying DA3 will hinge on wether it has SP or not.

Modifié par KLUME777, 22 mai 2011 - 06:59 .

[sonsonthebia07]

I'm fine with either style but I prefer the voiced PC to being able to choose whether I am a dwarf or an elf or what not.

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]Huntress wrote...

Wouldn't you feel stuck if the main character in DA2 is mute aswell?[/quote]
Not at all, because Hawke could then say the things I select in the manner I prefer.  Voicing the PC carries huge costs in limited gameplay.
[quote]I have notes not one remembers how SOME players and bioware saw the warden, who is MUTE, for that i will remind you all! let me say, that while I type this am laughng my ass off ( as I promese)

 Warden was seen as:
1)Poker-face
2)blank sheet
3)Clumsy[/quote]
Poker-faced and blank sheet are both positive descriptors, I would say.

I don't see how clumsy describes DAO's dialogue system at all.  I'd call it elegant.
[quote]1)People wanted a voiced character and since Bioware start talking about DA2 they mention the wheel, so no surprises there.
2) people wanted the character to feel emotions and at least my hawk, smile while talking and I like her sarcastic.
3)Character has family and * spoilers*, Hawk shows some* emotion.
4)Character cast and move more fluid.[/quote]
1) The voice is a terrible idea, so wheel or no the game is lessened by its inclusion.
2) The character already felt emotion if the player so desired.  The only difference now is that Hawke displays that emotion, but in doing so we are limited to the emotion written into the game.  And again, what is with all the love for sarcasm?  Nearly everyone who favours DA2's design talks about how much they like sarcastic characters.  What is the appeal of so much sarcasm?  Generally, I mean.  I don't get it.
3) We were told during development that Hawke "doesn't have to love his family", so have that expression of emotion doesn't make any sense.
4) This, I will grant.  But that alone isn't nearly worth losing everything the voice denies us.
[quote]I know been stuck in a city sux,[/quote]
I don't know that.  being stuck is a city isn't, on its own, necessarily a problem.
[quote]1) I like the voice of female hawk.<3[/quote]
I'm not sure how I feel about LadyHawke's voice.  It's higher pitched than I would have chosen.  It's more overtly feminine than I think it needs to me.  I do think FemShep's voiec was better.
[quote]2) I like playing mages now.[/quote]
I always liked playing mages.  The difference is that DAO actually made my like playing Warriors, which has never before been true, and DA2 managed to throw that away.
[quote]3) I like how the character talk in banter with companions.[/quote]
Having the PC speak without my direct input is always a bad idea.
[quote]4) I like she shows emotions given the situation exemple: sarcastic+diplomatic doesn't like to slap characters or do nasty things to them, and she let you know.<3[/quote]
But, again, what if you want to be dismissive, or sardonic, or self-aggrandizing, or condescending, or oblivious?  These options are no longer available.[/quote]

[aduellist]

I know that the "more choice is better" argument is important for some and I tend to agree. But, at least for me, if the story and character are compelling and immersive, I'm better than okay with limitation. In the case of DA2, neither Hawke nor the story fulfilled either aspiration for me. The "gotcha" in voiced PC is that, even if Hawke and the story were top notch, I still would not have been able to listen to that male Hawke voice. I realize that's a purely personal issue, though.

Modifié par aduellist, 22 mai 2011 - 07:09 .

[Tommyspa]

I want another voiced pc. Silent protagonist seemed outdated for me, in games like tes and da and others (I know it lets you feel more like the character and all, and it is charming to feel that connection with the character you built.) I know a multimillion dollar resource company like bioware/ea can pull off "multi choice background before main plot stories" with fully voiced pcs, even if they recycle voice actors, people can pull off different character styles.

I base my like for a fully voiced pc based on my love of dramatic tv shows/moments in games, and there is no way you can capture an enthralling moment without a voiced character.

Modifié par Tommyspa, 22 mai 2011 - 07:31 .

[Zubie]

Many posts here have already covered why I prefer silent protagonists, so here is just another "vote" for my beloved silent PC!