650 réponses à ce sujet

[d friendly]

Flashflame58 wrote...

Certainly there's a way that they could find a happy medium and voice multiple races?

Maybe they could go the Portal route and say that you were voiced, but were also mute. I wonder how you communicate sarcasm with pantomime? A compromise could be that you play a character like Sandal. I imagine even if you had multiple origins and doubled the campaign length, you'd still save a lot of time and resources, when it came to the protagonist's voicework.

In all seriousness, I'd drop a voiced PC in a heartbeat. Especially if it meant we could get rid of the dialogue wheel. I hated that my options were polite+agree, joke (usually agree) and rude+disagree. The only way to fix that thing is to not only use longer summaries, but to allow players to alter the tone independantly of the summary. I want to bring back nuance to the characterization of my PC.


As a side note, I'm kind of disappointed with the lack of campaign/story mods for the DA franchise, and sometimes I blame the fact that voicework is no longer an extra, but a requirement. Having a voiced protagonist is just another hurdle to overcome. The environments probably have something to do with it also.

[In Exile]

d friendly wrote...
Maybe they could go the Portal route and say that you were voiced, but were also mute. I wonder how you communicate sarcasm with pantomime? A compromise could be that you play a character like Sandal. I imagine even if you had multiple origins and doubled the campaign length, you'd still save a lot of time and resources, when it came to the protagonist's voicework.

But that wouldn't be a compromise at all. People that want a voice, well, want a voice. Not having a voice doesn't really do anything.

In all seriousness, I'd drop a voiced PC in a heartbeat. Especially if it meant we could get rid of the dialogue wheel. I hated that my options were polite+agree, joke (usually agree) and rude+disagree. The only way to fix that thing is to not only use longer summaries, but to allow players to alter the tone independantly of the summary. I want to bring back nuance to the characterization of my PC.

I'd drop 20 hours of gameplay for a voice. It's something that makes the difference between a good game and an excellent one, for me.

[SilentK]

I connected much more with my Hawkes than my wardens and the voice is one of the reasons for that. Feels like my PC is alive in another way =) works wonders for me. If it was possible to download a dlc with voice for my warden in DA:O I would do it in a heartbeat. I think that if they had wanted the player to be able to be a dward, elf or human they would have written the story that way. But they wanted to present Hawke. No matter who we get to play as in DA3, be it warden or Hawke or someone new I hope that there will still be a voice for that char.

Ohh.... Love F!Hawke's voice

[RangerSG]

Rojahar wrote...

Voice-acting is NOT the reason that Hawke is human-only. It's not like the races even have different types of voices. You could have the same male voice for a human, elf, or dwarf. It's not like anyone else uses the same voice as the main character anyway.

SilentK wrote...

I connected much more with my Hawkes than my wardens and the voice is one of the reasons for that. Feels like my PC is alive in another way =) works wonders for me. If it was possible to download a dlc with voice for my warden in DA:O I would do it in a heartbeat. I think that if they had wanted the player to be able to be a dward, elf or human they would have written the story that way. But they wanted to present Hawke. No matter who we get to play as in DA3, be it warden or Hawke or someone new I hope that there will still be a voice for that char.

Ohh.... Love F!Hawke's voice

I agree with and echo every one of your words, completely. I know some people think non-voice-acted is more immersive, as they continually remind us, but that's entirely subjective. A lot of people feel more immersed playing as a character who can speak back and interact. I personally feel taken out of the world and reminded it's just a game whenever brought into one of those silent protagonist dialog-choice moments, especially in a third-person game.

And I disagree 100%. Hawke doesn't feel like my character. Especially given the limitations of choice the dialogue wheel imposes on the player and the resultant dialogues spinning off in completely different directions so they can say what the plot needs them to say.

I'd dump a voiced MC in a heartbeat to have an Origins-style game for DA3, because that's what Dragon Age 'should' be. This was a JRPG in DA clothing.

Now, what I think might work in DA3 is voicing cut-scenes and places where dialogue is set. That would allow for most of the advantages of voice acting, IMHO, while still allowing the freedom for player choice in the game proper.

[Pasquale1234]

element eater wrote...

I also@ harold how is it a limitation? i see what your saying but that's really such a small aspect of the story do you really need to sacrifice so much to include it? after the first act theres is absolutely no requirement for a mage in the family and even act one there could easily be a work around. besides as lots of people have said an elven Hawke would still fit the story even with the requirement for a mage

The story of Hawke is a story of a human.

Hawke's family has a magic lineage, and therefore cannot be Dwarven.

Hawke's family were nobility in Kirkwall, and therefore cannot be Elven.

Both of these were significant story elements, imho.  The magical family would tend to give Hawke a different perspective on the mage vs templar conflict, and reclaiming the family estate was one of the elements of Hawke's rise to power and influence.

[Zeevico]

Sure. The story of Hawke is the story of a mage who meets a templar, does magic to save him, and then gets lectured by that templar about the evil of magic. Or his comrades do, if he isn't a mage, and cullen ignores it all the same. Stellar writing.

It was possible to create Hawke the noble, but there's no reason to create Hawke the elf, or Hawke the dwarf. Give him a different name if you want, don't move him to Hightown and you have more or less the same story with a different race. Just switch up the personal sidequests a little and you're done.

[KennethAFTopp]

Zeevico wrote...

Sure. The story of Hawke is the story of a mage who meets a templar, does magic to save him, and then gets lectured by that templar about the evil of magic. Or his comrades do, if he isn't a mage, and cullen ignores it all the same. Stellar writing.

It was possible to create Hawke the noble, but there's no reason to create Hawke the elf, or Hawke the dwarf. Give him a different name if you want, don't move him to Hightown and you have more or less the same story with a different race. Just switch up the personal sidequests a little and you're done.

I keep thinking one way one could do it, was of course doing three different origins,
where if you play a Dwarf you would take Varric's place, if you played an Elf you would take Fenris' place, and then have a Hawke NPC following you around.

[Pasquale1234]

Zeevico wrote...

Sure. The story of Hawke is the story of a mage who meets a templar, does magic to save him, and then gets lectured by that templar about the evil of magic. Or his comrades do, if he isn't a mage, and cullen ignores it all the same. Stellar writing.

It was possible to create Hawke the noble, but there's no reason to create Hawke the elf, or Hawke the dwarf. Give him a different name if you want, don't move him to Hightown and you have more or less the same story with a different race. Just switch up the personal sidequests a little and you're done.

As Mr. Gaider previously mentioned, it is much more complicated than that.

DA2 had quite a few cinematic animations with various camera movements, all of which would have needed to have multiple versions to accommodate multiple races.  The work of modeling all of them is enormous.

[KennethAFTopp]

I know this is all wrong, but usually the excuses seem (keyword: seem) to end up being: "This feature was too much hard work so we dropped it."

[Zulmoka531]

I liked the voiced protagonist in DA2. It was sort of a nice..change to hear my character speak for themselves.

However I also would prefer origins, or at least race choice to become a feature in future DA/Bioware games again. Just my thoughts.

[Alex Kershaw]

Ariella wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

I'd actually prefer to think that you simply didn't have enough resources than think that the entire game was dumbed down simply because you were stubborn about using a particular story, particualrly when the story in question isn't going to be winning any awards any time soon...

Why shouldn't Bioware tell the story they wanted to? There are a lot of games that get along fine without customization of race: Mass Effect, The Witcher, KotOR, PST. In fact two of the four even go so much without customization of gender or even look, and they're considered standards of the genre.

You didn't like the game, fine. But claiming the game was dumbed down, especially in the face of those four games, is just silly.

I assume that you simply worded that incorrectly because the alternative is blind denial. Dragon Age II WAS dumbed down. The question is whether or not that makes for a better experience.

My comment wasn't specifically referring to the customisation of race, but the way that the story limits the quality of the gameplay (particularly RPG-specific) elements in general. For example, the story was set in one town, thus all the gameplay must happen in one town, in the same boring locations with no exploration. The story was written with one ending, thus your choices have very little impact. The game has some specific lore about your main character being human so there is less customisation.

The story can take precedance over gameplay if it's worth it, but would you really say that the story in Dragon Age II was that good that it had to just be in Kirkwall? That the fact that your family was human was that important that you had less customisation? In Mass Effect, a massive amount of the storyline is about the human race. I don't need to go into detail - it's obvious. I see Mass Effect and think of how good the plot is and what changes would have to have been made to play as other races, and I am happy with Mass Effect having a human PC. DA2 is different in that it makes storyline decisions that hardly affect the game at yet limit the gameplay in a large way.

EDIT: For the record, I completed Origins 3 times, all as a human. I see the lack of race options in DA2 as a minor problem - way overshadowed by many of the game's huge flaws. What originally annoyed me was Gaider's excuse that the DA2 story was worth removing gameplay elements, because I'm starting to wonder where this story actually was. All I seem to remember is a series of side quests followed by 20 minutes of story, then another series of side quests followed by 20 minutes of a completely different story, and finally another series of side quests followed by 20 minutes of a completely different story. The only parts worthy of the word 'plot' were the companion side quests, none of which seem to heavily rely on being human-specific.

EDIT2: On topic, I am for silent PC. Silent PC can be done well and voiced PC can be done well. I'd just rather that the resources it takes to have thousands of lines of text for the game's lead role be voiced acted 6 different times be used for something different. I find it to be just one of the ridiculous game design decisions. Origins got a 91 metacritic score, so they do a 180 degree turn? They're given 18 months to develop a sequel to a massive game, so they change the art style and add a voiced PC, practically burning resources?

Anyway - two main reasons for supporting silent PC: 1) More immersive 2) Takes less resources, so the rest of the game is likely to be better. I never found it awkward with a silent PC and actually find it more odd when Hawke blurts out comments that are nothing to do with the paraphrase I just clicked on.

Modifié par Alex Kershaw, 23 mai 2011 - 11:21 .

[lastpatriot]

To the OP:

The voiced PC was the main reason why I enjoyed DA:2 so much despite the obvious flaws.  Were Blizzard to remove this option for DA:3, I don't think I would be all that interested in the game.

[Tommy6860]

lastpatriot wrote...

To the OP:

The voiced PC was the main reason why I enjoyed DA:2 so much despite the obvious flaws.  Were Blizzard to remove this option for DA:3, I don't think I would be all that interested in the game.

Well, it would be a serious step backwards if Blizzard were to develop DA3.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

BP20125810 wrote...

From what I know, the voiced main charachter was one of the reason DA2 had only a human PC.  Would you be willing to ditch that for more replayability and customization in DA3, at the loss of not having a voiced protagonist?

It's either one way or the other way for me. 

I would rather play as a voiced protagonist works in a world where everyone else talking because it feels more immersive to me.
 
Unless you have reason as to why the character doesn't talk (damaged vocal cords, a birth defect, etc) and a way for the character to communicate with other characters (s/he can carry chalk and a small chalkboard and write things and show it to other characters or maybe s/he knows sign language) then MAYBE I can accept a silent protagonist in talking world depending on how well it's done.

But for me simply going back silent protagonist who can talk but I don't hear his or her voice in DA:O really breaks a LOT of the immersion for me.

Or just make the game without any dialogue for anybody that also works for me.

That is just my 2 cents take it for whatever it's worth.

Modifié par Cyberstrike nTo, 24 mai 2011 - 12:03 .

[Serpieri Nei]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

element eater wrote...

I also@ harold how is it a limitation? i see what your saying but that's really such a small aspect of the story do you really need to sacrifice so much to include it? after the first act theres is absolutely no requirement for a mage in the family and even act one there could easily be a work around. besides as lots of people have said an elven Hawke would still fit the story even with the requirement for a mage

The story of Hawke is a story of a human.

Hawke's family has a magic lineage, and therefore cannot be Dwarven.

Hawke's family were nobility in Kirkwall, and therefore cannot be Elven.

Both of these were significant story elements, imho.  The magical family would tend to give Hawke a different perspective on the mage vs templar conflict, and reclaiming the family estate was one of the elements of Hawke's rise to power and influence.

DA2 Story 

You are one of the few who escaped the destruction of your home. Now, forced to fight for survival in an ever-changing world, you must gather the deadliest of allies, amass fame and fortune, and seal your place in history. This is the story of how the world changed forever. The legend of your Rise to Power begins now.

Magic and Nobility plays no part in any of the main quests in either act I, II, or III. In reality, Magic is actually hindrance to the Story, you see the Arishok should have killed you the moment Mage Hawke spoke, and the Viscount would not have dealt with an Apostate in a city that fears mages. The Amell heritage is never visited or brought back to its former glory. Hawke simply purchases the manor back from the slave traders. The Amell name isn't even reclaimed. 

Modifié par Serpieri Nei, 24 mai 2011 - 04:34 .

[Xewaka]

Considering that Bioware Games (since KotOR, I think) have never been dubbed in my idiom, any alleged advantage of voice over is lost to me, while I have to deal with all the disadvantages it brings. I think that makes my position clear.
Then again, my beef is not agaisnt the voiced character per se (who can simply be muted), but against the mechanic baggage it seems to come attached to: Paraphrases. Paraphrases are a terrible way to communicate with the player that destroys said player's agency, as he/she is now unable to make an informed decision about his character behavior whenever a conversation occurs. Being surprised by your character's behavior is not, in any way, shape, or form, a positive experience in a roleplaying game.
By the way, my idiom is Spanish, the second most spoken idiom in the world by volume of native speakers.

[Zem_]

RangerSG wrote...
And I disagree 100%. Hawke doesn't feel like my character. Especially given the limitations of choice the dialogue wheel imposes on the player and the resultant dialogues spinning off in completely different directions so they can say what the plot needs them to say.

What limitations of choice?  The wheel is just a multiple-choice UI the same as a list of dialogue lines is.  There is no greater or lesser ability to choose from one to the other.    Pre-written dialogue is pre-written dialogue.  I suppose if the dialogue list is better at anything it must be fooling people into thinking they have more choices. 

I understand the complaint some have about wanting to read the full line before choosing and that is easily worked into the wheel/icon system with roll-over captions.  But regardless, this is a matter of making more informed choices, not actually having more choices.

[Xewaka]

Zem_ wrote...
I understand the complaint some have about wanting to read the full line before choosing and that is easily worked into the wheel/icon system with roll-over captions.  But regardless, this is a matter of making more informed choices, not actually having more choices.

Uninformed choices are not choices, but guesses. I want to choose, not guess.

[Zem_]

Xewaka wrote...

Zem_ wrote...
I understand the complaint some have about wanting to read the full line before choosing and that is easily worked into the wheel/icon system with roll-over captions.  But regardless, this is a matter of making more informed choices, not actually having more choices.

Uninformed choices are not choices, but guesses. I want to choose, not guess.

"Uninformed" is an exaggeration.  You have some information about what Hawke will say for each choice.  You just don't have the exact wording.  And like I said, this is easy to fix for those who absolutely must know the word-for-word.  Just add a roll-over caption.  Done.  Personally, I never felt like Hawke really suprised me but then I care more about the intent of what I am saying than the exact wording.  I said I understand the complaint of those who want the full line spelled out... not that I agreed with it personally.  Matter of opinion, really.

[Huntress]

Zem_ wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Zem_ wrote...
I understand the complaint some have about wanting to read the full line before choosing and that is easily worked into the wheel/icon system with roll-over captions.  But regardless, this is a matter of making more informed choices, not actually having more choices.

Uninformed choices are not choices, but guesses. I want to choose, not guess.

"Uninformed" is an exaggeration.  You have some information about what Hawke will say for each choice.  You just don't have the exact wording.  And like I said, this is easy to fix for those who absolutely must know the word-for-word.  Just add a roll-over caption.  Done.  Personally, I never felt like Hawke really suprised me but then I care more about the intent of what I am saying than the exact wording.  I said I understand the complaint of those who want the full line spelled out... not that I agreed with it personally.  Matter of opinion, really.

Trust me, in DAO everything was/is spelled out, and they had trouble reading them.
Dont believe it? check DAO, they have trouble with lily and zev dialog options.

[Naughty Bear]

Saint's Row 2 did not have the same dialogue for the same scene but different accent, and the dialogue was different for each race and gender. Why can't Bioware do the same?

Example:

A dude explodes for no reason,

White guy accent: Bloody hell mate! (stereotype British accent).

Black guy accent: Oh hell no! (stereotype black accent)

Hispanic guy accent: Que? (stereotype Hispanic accent)

[Zem_]

Naughty Bear wrote...

Saint's Row 2 did not have the same dialogue for the same scene but different accent, and the dialogue was different for each race and gender. Why can't Bioware do the same?

Been awhile since I played it but were there even dialogue choices at all in that game?  Wasn't the script for cutscenes pretty much set in stone?  I imagine DA just has a LOT more lines for the protagonist to speak.

[MonkeyLungs]

The warden was NOT MUTE. His/her voice was YOUR voice (and you could imagine it any way you wanted).

The warden did not communicate telepathically, he/she spoke. You were supposed to use your imagination and put yourself (or your RP character self) into the role of warden. You people who felt like the warden was mute must have a really hard time reading books. Does it hurt when you try to imagine things?

[Ariella]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Alex Kershaw wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I see. Explain to me, then, how the story would have worked with Hawke and his siblings as dwarves-- and thus none of them having magic? Or elves, and thus altering the nature of th family in Kirkwall they come from? Unless your solution is that Hawke was adopted, having an elven or dwarven protaganist affects many other elements aside simply who the protaganist is.

I'd actually prefer to think that you simply didn't have enough resources than think that the entire game was dumbed down simply because you were stubborn about using a particular story, particualrly when the story in question isn't going to be winning any awards any time soon...

Why shouldn't Bioware tell the story they wanted to? There are a lot of games that get along fine without customization of race: Mass Effect, The Witcher, KotOR, PST. In fact two of the four even go so much without customization of gender or even look, and they're considered standards of the genre.

You didn't like the game, fine. But claiming the game was dumbed down, especially in the face of those four games, is just silly.

I assume that you simply worded that incorrectly because the alternative is blind denial. Dragon Age II WAS dumbed down. The question is whether or not that makes for a better experience.

My comment wasn't specifically referring to the customisation of race, but the way that the story limits the quality of the gameplay (particularly RPG-specific) elements in general. For example, the story was set in one town, thus all the gameplay must happen in one town, in the same boring locations with no exploration. The story was written with one ending, thus your choices have very little impact. The game has some specific lore about your main character being human so there is less customisation.

I've seen DMs choose one small location. One of the most classic mods of all time Ravenloft is set in a small village and a castle the heights. Exploration isn't what every game is about. Sometimes it's the small areas and villages that are enough.

The story can take precedance over gamepilay if it's worth it, but would you really say that the story in Dragon Age II was that good that it had to just be in Kirkwall? That the fact that your family was human was that important that you had less customisation? In Mass Effect, a massive amount of the storyline is about the human race. I don't need to go into detail - it's obvious. I see Mass Effect and think of how good the plot is and what changes would have to have been made to play as other races, and I am happy with Mass Effect having a human PC. DA2 is different in that it makes storyline decisions that hardly affect the game at yet limit the gameplay in a large way.

Kirkwall is a perfect place to set this. An independant city state doesn't have the same resources as an actual nation state does, which makes it work. Plus being so close to the Tevinter Imperium it's on the front line of the religious conflict between the White and Black Divines. It makes it a perfect setting for the tentions between mage and templar.

Not only that, it doesn't have the same lasse faire attitudes that Ferelden does, the class divide is much more obvious, and the influence of Tevinter still lurks in the darker places of Kirkwall. So, yes, being a human gives the dev team the most options so they can tell the story they wanted to rather than limiting themselves and trying to shoehorn elves and dwarves where they wouldn't fit. 

As for character itself. every dialogue choice you make opens and closes doors, everything thing you say and the way you say it shapes the PC into someone with a very specific persona. The story is about who Hawke is, the conflicts she's thrown into, define her, not the other way around.

EDIT: For the record, I completed Origins 3 times, all as a human. I see the lack of race options in DA2 as a minor problem - way overshadowed by many of the game's huge flaws. What originally annoyed me was Gaider's excuse that the DA2 story was worth removing gameplay elements, because I'm starting to wonder where this story actually was. All I seem to remember is a series of side quests followed by 20 minutes of story, then another series of side quests followed by 20 minutes of a completely different story, and finally another series of side quests followed by 20 minutes of a completely different story. The only parts worthy of the word 'plot' were the companion side quests, none of which seem to heavily rely on being human-specific.

I played Origins and completed it more times than you it seems, all as a human. I played the other Origins but really didn't find them all that compelling past Ostagar. I don't see where it's a revelvent "gameplay" option, especially considering the whole purpose of the origins was to be an introduction to Thedas. And the backstory is VERY human specific, which is what Gaider was pointing out.

EDIT2: On topic, I am for silent PC. Silent PC can be done well and voiced PC can be done well. I'd just rather that the resources it takes to have thousands of lines of text for the game's lead role be voiced acted 6 different times be used for something different. I find it to be just one of the ridiculous game design decisions. Origins got a 91 metacritic score, so they do a 180 degree turn? They're given 18 months to develop a sequel to a massive game, so they change the art style and add a voiced PC, practically burning resources?

Anyway - two main reasons for supporting silent PC: 1) More immersive 2) Takes less resources, so the rest of the game is likely to be better. I never found it awkward with a silent PC and actually find it more odd when Hawke blurts out comments that are nothing to do with the paraphrase I just clicked on.

I don't find a silent PC more immersive. In fact, there were times when I wanted to strangle my PC for NOT blurting out something, especially when they were talking about her literally behind her back. That and Hawke's face is more mobile for her being able to speak than the Warden's. I found the warden's face to be more wooden, the times her lower face moved, it always seemed exagerated to me. Wynne's fall or the death of Fergas' family, she makes this O with her mouth and her eyes widen, and that's the the most expressive she gets.