650 réponses à ce sujet

[Luke Barrett]

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

[DaBigDragon]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

Honestly, I had no issues with paraphrased lines on the selection wheel. They all seemed to match pretty closely in my opinion.

[Funker Shepard]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

I think it would help, but I think that a lot of this isn't based on personal experience with DA2, but with the issues that were more present in Mass Effect 1, where the wheel first surfaced. A question of "oh, the dialogue wheel does x, y, z" while most of the issues with the system have been actually solved in later games. Or to recap, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, and that complaints are change resistance and legacy complaints from ME1.

To anyone who thinks the dialogue wheel is bad, I prescribe a playthrough of LA Noire. You'll come back to hug it for comfort.

[Iakus]

Well, for me the biggest problem with voiced protagonists isn't (usually) the paraphrasing.  The mood icons really helped wit that.   Typically, the problem is the lack of responses that I personally want my character to make.

To put it bluntly, the dialogue wheel needs more spokes.

Of course, more dialogue options=more resources, higher costs, and so on. With a silent protagonist, far more possible responses could more easily be listed. Even if many of them lead to the same result, at least you got to that result in character.

Modifié par iakus, 24 mai 2011 - 08:35 .

[Luke Barrett]

iakus wrote...

Well, for me the biggest problem with voiced protagonists isn't (usually) the paraphrasing.  The mood icons really helped wit that.   Typically, the problem is the lack of responses that I personally want my character to make.

To put it bluntly, the dialogue wheel needs more spokes.

Of course, more dialogue options=more resources, higher costs, and so on. With a silent protagonist, far more possible responses could more easily be listed. Even if many of them lead to the same result, at least you got to that result in character.

We should just support a usb microphone and let you pick an emotion and say whatever you want . The endless amount of comical/nsfw youtube videos alone would be worth the extra work!

(disclaimer: the above statement was in jest and does not represent, even remotely, an actual plan)

[Huntress]

DaBigDragon wrote...

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

Honestly, I had no issues with paraphrased lines on the selection wheel. They all seemed to match pretty closely in my opinion.

I agree and sometimes the character add more to it, I found it hilarious most of the time. And to think I was against voiced character, was I  ever wrong.

What I see is people wanting to go back to mute for the hell of it, right now they have DAO, at the end, give it another year, they'll ask again for voiced character. Because so and so game has voiced main character and is cool.

Right now have put DAO on a pedestal after been butchered by players and bioware, I can't stop laughing at the irony.

If anyone is intersted the video from DA2 in development still in youtube, the why they changed so many things, why the warden style didn't fit any more in DA and more, check it out.

[Zem_]

iakus wrote...
To put it bluntly, the dialogue wheel needs more spokes.

Does it?  It has six positions if you wanted to use all of them for different ways to respond to a given point.  That's as many as you had in DAO.  I wonder though how often DAO really did give you six different choices.  Because it didn't explicitly label each option by tone the way DA2 does with icons, it wasn't as obvious when you had four, five, or six different choices or if you really only had two or three and the rest were "investigate" options that just gave you more info on the current topic without advancing the conversation or making a decision.

[Iakus]

Luke Barrett wrote...

We should just support a usb microphone and let you pick an emotion and say whatever you want . The endless amount of comical/nsfw youtube videos alone would be worth the extra work!

That would be the best of all possible worlds.  Make it happen!

(disclaimer: the above statement was in jest and does not represent, even remotely, an actual plan)

Awwwww!

[Iakus]

Zem_ wrote...

iakus wrote...
To put it bluntly, the dialogue wheel needs more spokes.

Does it? It has six positions if you wanted to use all of them for different ways to respond to a given point. That's as many as you had in DAO. I wonder though how often DAO really did give you six different choices. Because it didn't explicitly label each option by tone the way DA2 does with icons, it wasn't as obvious when you had four, five, or six different choices or if you really only had two or three and the rest were "investigate" options that just gave you more info on the current topic without advancing the conversation or making a decision.

The six positions are typically three questions you can ask, and a "nice", "snarky", or "mean" choice in response. There are some exceptions in certain conversatons, of course. Often, that's enough. But sometimes I just want more. The question I want to ask isn't offered, or none of the responses seem right. When I play some of the older games, like KOTOR, or even older games where everyone is silent or nearly silent, you sometimes need a scroll bar to see all the options available.

Overall, it's not a huge deal.  It just sometimes makes voiced games seem limited

Modifié par iakus, 24 mai 2011 - 10:19 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said?

I'd be appalled if you weren't already trying to get the paraphrase to match the resultant line as closely as possible.

One of my complaints is that the paraphrase and the associated line were often different kinds of sentences, so the paraphrase would be interrogative but the spoken line would be declarative.  Those two things aren't even vaguely similar.  You should work to prevent that from ever happening.  If I choose a paraphrase that asks a question, then I want my character to ask a question.  I do not want my character to offer speculation or give away secrets.

This wouldn't solve all of the problem, of course, as the presence of a voice on its own is a severe limitation, and the tone icons are severe limitations, but it would be a marked improvement.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

I'd drop 20 hours of gameplay for a voice. It's something that makes the difference between a good game and an excellent one, for me.

Whereas, I think the opposite is the difference between an excallent game and an unplayably bad one.

Straight utilitarianism says my side should win, as I suffer the greater loss of happiness by playing the wrong style.

[Ariella]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

I'd drop 20 hours of gameplay for a voice. It's something that makes the difference between a good game and an excellent one, for me.

Whereas, I think the opposite is the difference between an excallent game and an unplayably bad one.

Straight utilitarianism says my side should win, as I suffer the greater loss of happiness by playing the wrong style.

Sorry the world doesn't run that way. Syl.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

It certainly couldn't hurt.  I appreciate Hawke's having a voice and thought the tone system helped immensely, but there is still room for improvement.  Some of the paraphrases vs. the spoken lines did not match in...well, intensity or subtlety, for lack of a better word.

SPOILERS INCOMING; AVERT EYES




For example, when Hawke returns to Cullen after rescuing the templar, the pro-mage paraphrase is "hey I'm a mage!"  I expected something confrontational or confessional; instead the spoken line is much more measured and intellectual.  They don't match.

Also, more care needs to be taken with the relationship paraphrasing.  I know the romance options have to be obvious to cut down on ninja-mancing complaints, but y'all have the heart icon now.  You don't need to give players such face-palmers as "princes are sexy" to make sure we get it; great, now my Hawke's a gold-digger rather than liking him for his character.  Be more general or subtle please.

[Zem_]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Whereas, I think the opposite is the difference between an excallent game and an unplayably bad one.
Straight utilitarianism says my side should win, as I suffer the greater loss of happiness by playing the wrong style.

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.  Can I get an icon to go with your post?:innocent:

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zem_ wrote...

Can I get an icon to go with your post?:innocent:

No.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zem_ wrote...

iakus wrote...

To put it bluntly, the dialogue wheel needs more spokes.

Does it?

Yes.  The icon and voice force a specific intent and delivery on each line, so we're stuck with just the options as they are written on the wheel.  6 of them.

DAO's dialogue, with the same number of options, gave us 6*n options where n was the number of different ways you could imagine your character deliverng the lines.  And why you were delivering the line (and delivering it like that) was entirely up to you.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 25 mai 2011 - 12:16 .

[Zanallen]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Zem_ wrote...

iakus wrote...

To put it bluntly, the dialogue wheel needs more spokes.

Does it?

Yes.  The icon and voice force a specific intent and delivery on each line, so we're stuck with just the options as they are written on the wheel.  6 of them.

DAO's dialogue, with the same number of options, gave us 6*n options where n was the number of different ways you could imagine your character deliverng the lines.  And why you were delivering the line (and delivering it like that) was entirely up to you.

Except that each line was tied to a specific response that interpreted the line with a predetermined tone/intent. The game script doesn't give a damn about your RP. It only cares about the implied tone designed for that response.

[Zanallen]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

Isn't it possible to implement a mouse over or delayed hover option that provides the full text? For example, in a the PC version, if you mouse over the paraphrase, the full response is shown. In the console version, this could be accomplished by keeping the stick pointed toward one option for a few seconds. The full line could be displayed in the same box as the last line of previous dialogue.

[Malanek]

Luke Barrett wrote...

Somewhat related question:

Could this frustration with the voiced protaganist be somewhat alleviated if we were more specific with our chat options? My understanding of some of the issues with this is that the paraphrase text (the small text you pick from the wheel) wasn't closely related enough to what Hawke actually said. Would this be less of a problem if we were much more stringent with the paraphased text relative to what is actually said? This is much easier to accomplish than completely reinventing the wheel (I love when puns just appear by accident!)

YES YES YES!!!

My biggest complaint with the paraphrasing, which seems to have spread accorss the industry, is that there are too many times when you end up saying something you don't want to. Even if this happens only say 5 times in the entire game, I still find it incredibly frustrating when it does.

I can remember  reading a quote from a Bioware dev in the build up saying a good paraphrase is one where what is said naturally flows on if you read them together. I think that is completely wrong. A good paraphrase is one where the player knows pretty much what is going to be said and never completely surprised.

Aside from that the only issue I have with a fully voiced character is that I sometimes just don't like the voice acting. Not much you can do about that other than be careful with the casting, you can't please everyone with this. In all other ways I think the voiced character adds to the game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Zanallen wrote...

Except that each line was tied to a specific response that interpreted the line with a predetermined tone/intent.

People keep saying this, and I don't understand why they think it matters.

The game script doesn't give a damn about your RP. It only cares about the implied tone designed for that response.

In fact, the game script doesn't care about either thing.  It's just a series of If-Then events.

Roleplaying is the whole point of the game.  It's a roleplaying game.

[Luke Barrett]

Technically in DA2, depending what your character favors (diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive) certain ambient 'flavor' dialog will play throughout the game. These are mostly ambient responses to quest turn-ins and reactive statements when you pickup items and what not.

Edit: To clarify, when I say ambient I mean dialog that occurs outside of a conversation on the fly (party banter, for example, is ambient)

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'd be appalled if you weren't already trying to get the paraphrase to match the resultant line as closely as possible.

That is most obviously the intent but through numerous amounts of reiteration it sometimes gets skewed and it would then be QAs job to point out any obvious discrepencies that have occured (or that could be interpreted differently than intended by the writer). Now, this does happen but obviously in the future we can, as I implied, be much more stringent on exactly how spot on the paraphrases are for mood and intent in hopes that we greatly reduce this divide that players are feeling.

Modifié par Luke Barrett, 25 mai 2011 - 12:42 .

[Zanallen]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Except that each line was tied to a specific response that interpreted the line with a predetermined tone/intent.

People keep saying this, and I don't understand why they think it matters.

The game script doesn't give a damn about your RP. It only cares about the implied tone designed for that response.

In fact, the game script doesn't care about either thing.  It's just a series of If-Then events.

Roleplaying is the whole point of the game.  It's a roleplaying game.

It matters because it makes your particular interpretation invalid. The game doesn't recognize it. It does, however, recognize the intent of the line as it was written. The "if" has an implied intent that matches the "then" reponse. There will be instances where your intent/tone doesn't match the implied intent/tone and thus the response will be completely odd. Now, while you can never tell what a person will say in response to your comments, it is offputting when you expect the tone/intent to be one way and the game registers it completely different so the NPC's response is out of line. I hate to use this term, but it is fairly immersion breaking.

[mesmerizedish]

It's immersion-breaking to think that an NPC might misinterpret your statement?

Sorry, I'm with Sylvius here.