167 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

I'm for dialogue interrupts but base them on what? The system works for ME because of the P/R system. As there's no such scale for the characters in DA, I'm wondering where one would hook it, and it probably would not be implemented in the same fashion.

[John Epler]

I'm a big fan of the interrupt system, personally. I believe you can still implement it without the necessity of attaching it to a Paragon/Renegade sort of meter, though I would agree that you have to be careful about telegraphing them properly and ensuring that the person who uses them has at least some idea what's going to happen.

[Black-Xero]

Ariella wrote...

I'm for dialogue interrupts but base them on what? The system works for ME because of the P/R system. As there's no such scale for the characters in DA, I'm wondering where one would hook it, and it probably would not be implemented in the same fashion.

It may not have a P/R system but if it continues to keep the 3 personality choices,those could work as a part of the interruption.Aggressive would have something similar to the Renegade interrupts while the kinder approah would be similar to the Paragon interrupts.Sarcasm would obviously be a witty remark.

[Ariella]

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm a big fan of the interrupt system, personally. I believe you can still implement it without the necessity of attaching it to a Paragon/Renegade sort of meter, though I would agree that you have to be careful about telegraphing them properly and ensuring that the person who uses them has at least some idea what's going to happen.

Well, if DA continues with the icon system for the dialogue wheel. Red Heart rather than a gold one for a kiss or other romantic gesture.A wrapped present which would allow giving a gift in the middle of covnersation and getting reaction rather than making it a specific quest. I'm sure you get the idea. But I do like the impulsive unpredictable quality that interrupts give a game, especially that magic first time.

[Sylvius the Mad]

No. Absolutely not. The player needs to be able to take the time to determine whether a given action would be in-character for the PC, and the interrupts as they were implemented in ME2 were sufficiently vague that the player could never know what was going to happen with anything approaching certainy.

Interrupts of any sort are a terrible idea.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ariella wrote...

But I do like the impulsive unpredictable quality that interrupts give a game, especially that magic first time.

Your character should never be unpredictable to you.  If he ever is, he's no longer your character.

[Ariella]

Black-Xero wrote...

Ariella wrote...

I'm for dialogue interrupts but base them on what? The system works for ME because of the P/R system. As there's no such scale for the characters in DA, I'm wondering where one would hook it, and it probably would not be implemented in the same fashion.

It may not have a P/R system but if it continues to keep the 3 personality choices,those could work as a part of the interruption.Aggressive would have something similar to the Renegade interrupts while the kinder approah would be similar to the Paragon interrupts.Sarcasm would obviously be a witty remark.

I can see sarcasm also being a smack upside the head. But interrupts should be BIG gestures, something eye catching and unexpected mostly, giving the player an opportunity to do something a little bit more physically expressive than just line choice or the dialogue wheel provides, especially since a lot of the cinematic moments I noticed in ME 2 were connected to interrupts. 

[_Aine_]

I like interrupts for the most part. They are great when you really, REALLY feel like you want to interject or otherwise be emphatic about a point. Somehow having this "time limited" thing on your screen makes it feel like the decision has more impact. Whether it does or not, is questionable, but appearances (how things seem rather than are) are a huge part of the experience.

[Ariella]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ariella wrote...

But I do like the impulsive unpredictable quality that interrupts give a game, especially that magic first time.

Your character should never be unpredictable to you.  If he ever is, he's no longer your character.

Predictable characters are boring as hell, and a cRPG character is never completely the player's in the first place. The PC is a collabrative effort between the game designers and the player.

Characters who take on a life of their own, outside the player or the writer, are the best there are. And those characters take unexpected turns all the time, from the table top with dice to the writer working on a novel. Living, breathing characters should surprise and delight you, or there's no point.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ariella wrote...

Predictable characters are boring as hell,

If you know your character well enough to play him coherently, then you should be able to predict his behaviour just about perfectly all of the time.

If you can't, then you don't know him, and if you don't know him then how are you making decisions on his behalf?

and a cRPG character is never completely the player's in the first place.

They should strive to be.  And I disagree that they have not traditionally been the player's character.

The PC is a collabrative effort between the game designers and the player.

The narrative is a collaborative effort between the designers and the player.  The PC needs to belong to the player if the player is to be able to make his decisions for him.

If you don't know the character well enough to know what he'll do, how do you choose his actions?  How do you tell him what to do next if you don't know him well enough to know what he would choose?  You are his selection mechanism.  It's nonsensical to suggest that you don't know what he'll do, because you're the one making him to do it.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 mai 2011 - 11:15 .

[Ariella]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Predictable characters are boring as hell,

If you know your character well enough to play him coherently, then you should be able to predict his behaviour just about perfectly all of the time.

If you can't, then you don't know him, and if you don't know him then how are you making decisions on his behalf?

And here I quote Nathan Fillion as Richard Castle:

"Do you wanna know why I killed Derrik [Storm, his main protagonist]? There were no more surprises. I knew exaxrly what was going to happen every moment of every scene."

As for making decisions, who says I'm the one making them? I usually wind up my characters with the basics and then let them run on their own. It's a lot more fun that way.

and a cRPG character is never completely the player's in the first place.

They should strive to be.  And I disagree that they have not traditionally been the player's character.

The PC is a collabrative effort between the game designers and the player.

The narrative is a collaborative effort between the designers and the player.  The PC needs to belong to the player if the player is to be able to make his decisions for him.

Never worked that way for me, usually the character pipes up and tells me what she wants to do, I just press the buttons, or the keys depending on which kind of character I'm dealing with. And a lot of the time the character may say "take this turn!" in the most unexpected fashion and you end up in a new place with a whole new set of options you didn't have before.

If you don't know the character well enough to know what he'll do, how do you choose his actions?  How do you tell him what to do next if you don't know him well enough to know what he would choose?  You are his selection mechanism.  It's nonsensical to suggest that you don't know what he'll do, because you're the one making him to do it.

It's not as nonsensical as you think. A good character will have a distinct voice of her own, one that lives and breaths and had depth outside the player or the writer. Finding out things you didn't know about a character is the fun part of any rpg, at least for me, and it's not just big things but little ones, like Hawke insisted on the name Miriam instead of Marion, said it fit her circumstances better. It's all about allowing imagination to take off without conscious constraint, and seeing what happens.

[berelinde]

I don't care about dialogue interrupts. I just want to be able to pause them.

[iamthespark]

The problem with the ME2 style interrupts is that player hits the button just to see what will happen instead of actually being involved in the choice. The interrupts also werent affected by my alignment. Even though I was 99% paragon, I would still get the option for renegade interrupts..

Anyway, maybe DA shouldnt follow ME2 on this one and think outside the box for another way to involve the player in conversations.

[Zem_]

iamthespark wrote...
The problem with the ME2 style interrupts is that player hits the button just to see what will happen instead of actually being involved in the choice. The interrupts also werent affected by my alignment. Even though I was 99% paragon, I would still get the option for renegade interrupts..

What an odd complaint.  I always thought that was the best part of the system.  If the game is tracking your alignment and then limiting your conversation or interrupt choices then IT is doing your character's choosing for you, in effect.  The same is true in DA2.  Your choices are tracked but this does not prevent you from choosing a diplomatic reply just because your overall personality has developed as sarcastic.

Anyway, maybe DA shouldnt follow ME2 on this one and think outside the box for another way to involve the player in conversations.

After just one game, ME2's interrupt system is "in the box" thinking? 

[Blastback]

I'd rather not see them. for my money, in regards to actual roleplaying, Mass Effect is more RPG lite, which allows for interupts. Dragon Age is more of a heavy RPG, with more character freedom. I just don't see it working without costing me to much of the feeling that I control the character's identity and actions.

[Demx]

I think Bioware should do something else to make Dragon Age more interactive.

[iamthespark]

Zem_ wrote...

iamthespark wrote...
The problem with the ME2 style interrupts is that player hits the button just to see what will happen instead of actually being involved in the choice. The interrupts also werent affected by my alignment. Even though I was 99% paragon, I would still get the option for renegade interrupts..

What an odd complaint.  I always thought that was the best part of the system.  If the game is tracking your alignment and then limiting your conversation or interrupt choices then IT is doing your character's choosing for you, in effect.  The same is true in DA2.  Your choices are tracked but this does not prevent you from choosing a diplomatic reply just because your overall personality has developed as sarcastic.

Anyway, maybe DA shouldnt follow ME2 on this one and think outside the box for another way to involve the player in conversations.

After just one game, ME2's interrupt system is "in the box" thinking? 

The thing is that its the same interrupt.  Its always a Renegate interrupt at X scene and a Paragon at Y scene, so no matter how I play I always have the same interrupts at the same scenes.  It'd be nice if it was different.  Maybe if I wasn't that Renegade, I'd have a chance of the interrupt failing and causing a differnet (and more comedic) outcome.

I actually enjoyed how DA2 captured the tone for the smaller comments, that makes playthroughs a little more fun and it suits the last 3-ish choices you may have made.

ME2 is a very popular game and DA2 has already grabbed the dialogue wheel from it and now we are considering interrupts? DA2 was already blasted with the line "Mass Dragion Effect" in gamer articles because it was getting similar to ME2.  Now its time for DA3 to think of something uniquely its own..   Its got to stand on its own legs and not keep borrowing its brother.   That's what I mean about "thinking outside the box". 

[element eater]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Your character should never be unpredictable to you.  If he ever is, he's no longer your character.

i completely agree, unfortunately I dislike most aspects of how the pc is implemented in da2 name,voice  dialogue wheel etc so Hawke never feels like my character anyway. With that in mind if this undesired style  is to continue  why not add interrupts atleast its more interesting to watch if its not going to be my character it may as well be an entertaining one

Modifié par element eater, 20 mai 2011 - 01:51 .

[Foolsfolly]

JohnEpler wrote...

I'm a big fan of the interrupt system, personally. I believe you can still implement it without the necessity of attaching it to a Paragon/Renegade sort of meter, though I would agree that you have to be careful about telegraphing them properly and ensuring that the person who uses them has at least some idea what's going to happen.

Shepard almost always telegraphs the Renegade interrupts with a balled fist, pulling a pistol, or looking at something that can be destroyed.

Those for a DA character would be easy to telegraph to the player....the Paragon interrupts aren't as telegraphed like that, they're hugging, healing, and a few times punching.

It would take a bit of work to impliment them into DA, a series I personally don't see as 'Paragon' and 'Renegade' like ME is. But I know it can be done, as long as the interupts are properly telegraphed....and as long as they're not just Good Guy and Bad Guy things.

[John Epler]

Just to be clear - when I say 'I like interrupts', I don't mean 'I want to take what ME2 did with the interrupt system and put it in DA2 with few alterations'. We've had discussions before about what form this sort of thing might take in the Dragon Age franchise, though nothing concrete. If we did ever do it (and I'm certainly not saying we will or won't)? I'd definitely like to try something a little different.

[The Dubious]

It would be nice to say- for example slap Anders from behind as he sits on that crate just after- well after what he did towards the end, or maybe interrupt by murder-knifing some particular NPC (instead of Hawke automatically or not doing anything at all- even though he should *Petrice comes in mind*).

I wouldn't want the interrupts based of the ME2 system.