51 réponses à ce sujet

[CARL_DF90]

[quote]Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

[quote]CARL_DF90 wrote...

Hope Bioware is taking notes and learning from these and other missteps. [/quote]

You said that 4 days ago, I don't think saying it again is going to make Bioware suddenly go "Oh look he really wants us to read this and take note..." [quote]

lol

Oh, did I now? I didn't realize that.  Maybe I was just saying something for the sake of keeping a good thread alive.

Modifié par CARL_DF90, 24 mai 2011 - 04:10 .

[aimlessgun]

laecraft wrote...
Cerberus is the issue the majority of the players seem to feel very strongly about - even stronger than about the Reapers, ironically. Where are the complaints "But the Reapers are coming! Why can't I make my Shepard prepare to war, speak with all the species to try and convince them, rally a campaign on the media, do research on Reaper tech, search for more clues from Protheans, develop super weapons, or just do ANYTHING before they strike and nearly burn down the Earth and kill so many humans? Even if nobody listens to Shepard and it doesn't affect the story, at least I've tried. I need to roleplay a soldier desperately trying to save the galaxy. I can't just sit and wait after "Arrival" until they come! Where's the choice, Bioware?" No, you don't hear complains like that.

Actually I complain about that all the time  But more along the lines of "The Collector storyline is a glorified side mission that should not have been the main plot", not "we should get more choice".

[Iakus]

100k wrote...

Waltzingbear wrote...
Regarding Vasir. Look at this. Sounds to me like a paraphrase of what you wanted to say minus the few extra bits

To be fair, this line (which I use most often) is still far too vague to convey what Shepard probably meant.

This is how it should have gone: 

Vasir: ...you pay them lip service while working for terrorists? Do you know what your friends at Cerberus are up to?

Shepard: Cerberus hasn't asked me to blow up a building of innocent people, Vasir! And if they did, not only would I quit, but I'd do everything in my power to stop them!

OR:

Shepard:  You don't need to tell me what Cerberus has done.  Their time will come eventually.  But for right now they're the lesser evil

Shepard:  My "partnership" with Cerberus is a marriage of convenience.  The Reapers threaten the entire galaxy!.

Shepard: Believe me, I don't like working with Cerberus.  What they have done turns my stomach.  But I have no other option. 

I too approve of the OP, and hope Mr Hudson and the writers take note of it.

[aimlessgun]

I agree wholeheartedly with both examples in the OP.

The Collector ship setup: I wanted to tell my crew that TIM betrayed us. Even if it's not strictly true. The point is that you're trying to drive a wedge between the Cerberus crew and TIM so you can take the Normandy for yourself.


Vasir Conversation:

iakus wrote...

OR:

Shepard:  You don't need to tell me what Cerberus has done.  Their time will come eventually.  But for right now they're the lesser evil

Shepard:  My "partnership" with Cerberus is a marriage of convenience.  The Reapers threaten the entire galaxy!.

Shepard:
Believe me, I don't like working with Cerberus.  What they have done
turns my stomach.  But I have no other option. 

And not just from the paragon side. The lack of a true renegade option for this conversation was maddening. The whole exchange is ridiculous, and a true renegade would not have bandied words with her. As soon as she starts blabbing, shoot her again to make sure she's dead, and walk away. Being forced to 'defend' myself to her was vomit inducing.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 24 mai 2011 - 04:33 .

[Bluefuse]

The whole reason why BioWare made the story with Cerberus reviving Commander Shepard and making all of ME2 appearing that we work for Cerberus is because we need a reason to side with Cerberus in ME3. The whole experience of experiencing a degree of loyalty to the Alliance in ME1 and Cerberus in ME2 foreshadows the fact that we must choose one or the other in ME3 when we finally choose how we want to face the reapers, whichever method seems most reasonable in the players' eyes.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 24 mai 2011 - 06:54 .

[Ahglock]

Forced choices should fit the character better or if they don't they need a lot more explanation. Working for the alliance was forced in ME1 but it fit, you start off as a soldier of the alliance, you know a bit of your character's history that makes it work. When you are forced to become a specter it works because they had multiple story points leading up to it.

One extra mission is likely all you would need to make it at least a rational choice so it hits the suspension of belief bar. Something like you escape fro Cerberus, go to the alliance and they totally blow you off on the reaper threat etc., then have Cerberus operatives approach you and give you a deal where they let you know you are calling the shots, they are just giving you the resources you need to stop the reapers. But you don't even try for another option, you just accept it. And it really doesn't fit.

I was talking to my Nephew last week, he had just replayed ME1 but for the first time had done the side quests, his first thing he said was now that I am starting ME2 again, I really don't want to work with Cerberus this time.

Given the events of ME1 you need more of an explanation for why you go down this path than what we got.

[Jebel Krong]

iakus wrote...

100k wrote...

Waltzingbear wrote...
Regarding Vasir. Look at this. Sounds to me like a paraphrase of what you wanted to say minus the few extra bits

To be fair, this line (which I use most often) is still far too vague to convey what Shepard probably meant.

This is how it should have gone: 

Vasir: ...you pay them lip service while working for terrorists? Do you know what your friends at Cerberus are up to?

Shepard: Cerberus hasn't asked me to blow up a building of innocent people, Vasir! And if they did, not only would I quit, but I'd do everything in my power to stop them!

OR:

Shepard:  You don't need to tell me what Cerberus has done.  Their time will come eventually.  But for right now they're the lesser evil

Shepard:  My "partnership" with Cerberus is a marriage of convenience.  The Reapers threaten the entire galaxy!.

Shepard: Believe me, I don't like working with Cerberus.  What they have done turns my stomach.  But I have no other option. 

I too approve of the OP, and hope Mr Hudson and the writers take note of it.

Shepard: Yes. i know. I stopped enough of their 'experiments' before i died; and at the first opportunity i will gut them like a fish, but for now they are the only group to even acknowledge the reaper threat.

i do actually agree with that OP here, BUT it does come back to drawing the line somewhere to drive the actual story of the game forward and concentrate on that rather than keep going over the same ground. that said, telling Ashley to STFU and stop being such a dumb **** after everything in ME1 would have been more logical than what we got, as would th OP example of TIM's betrayal on the collector ship (though the people you took with you knew about that anyway, so it's not like it would/would have stayed secret forever).

[Lady Olivia]

Thompson family wrote...

Re: OP

And what, exactly, is Shep supposed to say when s/he resurfaces two years after his/her disappearance, flying around in an extremely expensive, state-of-the-art Cerberus spaceship with Cerberus making the crew's payroll?

"Man, I really hate this." or something to that effect?

Only if s/he wants to look like a hypocrite.

My Shep handled the problem thus:

Cmdr. Frank Shepard immediately left the system he started in and flew straight to the Citadel, where he docked the Normandy. The council could have seized the ship right then and there.

He then took Wilson and Lawson with him to Anderson's office to meet with the Council. They could have arrested him and two of Cerberus' top operatives -- and the recently recruited Kasumi Goto aboard the Normandy, assuming they could catch her. They did not. Not only did they let him come and go, they reinstated him as a Spectre and sanctioned the same mission Cerberus sent him out to do -- stop the collector attacks.

Even if you argue that the Normady and EDI could have gotten away somehow, a paragon Shepard would have stayed in the office and submitted to Council authority if that is what the Council wanted. Notably, that is NOT what the Council wanted. Note that the idea of sending out Shepard to the Terminus system to deal with the attacks was put forward by the Turian member, the one who presumably would like to nail Shep's hide to the side of a barn more than either of the others.

It's absolutely clear the Council had its mind made up about what to do with Shepard before s/he ever showed up.

So my Shep went to the bar in the Citadel, bought some ice brandy, picked up some high-quality provisions on the way back and had a binge with Chakwas. They toasted dead comrades. Then Shep went to Omega and went to work.

The lack of a bellyaching option didn't bother me at all.

One other thing:

It was Liara T'soni, not Shep, who made the deal with the devil here. Shep was a corpse when he found out s/he'd been delivered to Cerberus like a processed piece of beef. She's the one Shep should blame for his/her situation, and Shep most certainly does have the chance to do that in her office at Illium.

I despise TIM. Nobody playing this game blew up the Collector base with a bigger sense of gratification than me in every playthrough. However, within the game there are much bigger things at stake than Shep's discomfiture at working for a smooth villain. There's a job to be done and people to save. That's that.

This. Absolutely.

iakus wrote...

100k wrote...

Waltzingbear wrote...
Regarding Vasir. Look at this. Sounds to me like a paraphrase of what you wanted to say minus the few extra bits

To be fair, this line (which I use most often) is still far too vague to convey what Shepard probably meant.

This is how it should have gone: 

Vasir: ...you pay them lip service while working for terrorists? Do you know what your friends at Cerberus are up to?

Shepard: Cerberus hasn't asked me to blow up a building of innocent people, Vasir! And if they did, not only would I quit, but I'd do everything in my power to stop them!

OR:

Shepard:  You don't need to tell me what Cerberus has done.  Their time will come eventually.  But for right now they're the lesser evil

Shepard:  My "partnership" with Cerberus is a marriage of convenience.  The Reapers threaten the entire galaxy!.

Shepard: Believe me, I don't like working with Cerberus.  What they have done turns my stomach.  But I have no other option. 

I too approve of the OP, and hope Mr Hudson and the writers take note of it.

All of which boils down to: end justifies the means. That's how Saren worked. That's how Vasir worked. You don't have the option to explain how she's wrong because she's not, and only a very naive Shepard could be blind to that.

[Sebby]

aimlessgun wrote...

laecraft wrote...
Cerberus is the issue the majority of the players seem to feel very strongly about - even stronger than about the Reapers, ironically. Where are the complaints "But the Reapers are coming! Why can't I make my Shepard prepare to war, speak with all the species to try and convince them, rally a campaign on the media, do research on Reaper tech, search for more clues from Protheans, develop super weapons, or just do ANYTHING before they strike and nearly burn down the Earth and kill so many humans? Even if nobody listens to Shepard and it doesn't affect the story, at least I've tried. I need to roleplay a soldier desperately trying to save the galaxy. I can't just sit and wait after "Arrival" until they come! Where's the choice, Bioware?" No, you don't hear complains like that.

Actually I complain about that all the time  But more along the lines of "The Collector storyline is a glorified side mission that should not have been the main plot", not "we should get more choice".

In retrospect ME2 is more about building Cerberus up as an antagonist in ME3 than the Collectors.

[Iakus]

Lady Olivia wrote...


All of which boils down to: end justifies the means. That's how Saren worked. That's how Vasir worked. You don't have the option to explain how she's wrong because she's not, and only a very naive Shepard could be blind to that.

Small difference, though.  There was no response that indicates that Shepard doesn't like those means.

It's like Anderson said in ME1:  "I know how the world works, Commander. Sometimes you're forced to make unpleasant choices, but only if there's no other way.  Saren doesn't even look for another way." 

The Vasir conversation, the closest you could get was "It doesn't matter"

Jebel Krong wrote...

Shepard: Yes. i know. I stopped enough of their 'experiments' before i died; and at the first opportunity i will gut them like a fish, but for now they are the only group to even acknowledge the reaper threat.

I like that even better

[Reever]

Terror_K wrote...
That's the neutral option with the "it doesn't matter" line tacked on. My Shepard would never, IMO, say, "it doesn't matter" when it came to what Cerberus did, especially considering she was the Akuze thresher maw victim. Where's the upper right Paragon dialogue choice there? Where is the choice that isn't so wishy washy and allows me to directly agree and slam Cerberus, but give a good excuse for my "joining them" and even say I haven't technically joined them but are just using their resources and info because they are my only real source and the only ones doing something (i.e. they are a last and only resort right now)? There's the neutral and Renegade option on that wheel, but nothing for the upper-right Paragon choice.

I must say, that bothered me as well. Not being able to defend oneself a bit better (with Shepard being the great speaker he/she is...) was a bit exasperating sometimes...

[Dave666]

Excellent thread Terror and I couldn't agree with you more strongly.

[Phaedon]

It happened in ME1, with the Spectres, you could complain to Anderson, but he would tell you that you have no choice.

It happened in ME2, with Cerberus, and although it makes sense how TIM manipulated you at first to investigate the colonies, collecting a Cerberus-sponsored team didn't really work that well.

In both games, you could insult the Council and TIM, and well, let's be honest, you are going to join the Alliance in ME3, and you don't really have the chance to hate them.

I suppose that you are a bit more "freelance" though, since Earth is under attack, and the Alliance won't have as much political power.

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 mai 2011 - 05:04 .

[Ahglock]

Phaedon wrote...

It happened in ME1, with the Spectres, you could complain to Anderson, but he would tell you that you have no choice.

It happened in ME2, with Cerberus, and although it makes sense how TIM manipulated you at first to investigate the colonies, collecting a Cerberus-sponsored team didn't really work that well.

In both games, you could insult the Council and TIM, and well, let's be honest, you are going to join the Alliance in ME3, and you don't really have the chance to hate them.

I suppose that you are a bit more "freelance" though, since Earth is under attack, and the Alliance won't have as much political power.

In ME1 it made sense in the context of the character.  You are an alliance soldier, so being forced to by orders works to some degree.  You are an alliance soldier and you wake up in the med bay of a Cerberus experiment and you just go along with them does not make much sense.  It requires a lot more than what they gave us to make it plausible, at best you have people accepting it because it is a game.  

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

In both games, you could insult the Council and TIM, and well, let's be honest, you are going to join the Alliance in ME3, and you don't really have the chance to hate them.

What makes you think that?

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Mesina2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

In both games, you could insult the Council and TIM, and well, let's be honest, you are going to join the Alliance in ME3, and you don't really have the chance to hate them.

What makes you think that?

Because it is highly unlikely that they'll have Shepard hating the Alliance even if some people did have their Sheps not only stating they weren't with the Alliance but were also pissed off with them. As has been said by others with regards how Cerberus was handled in ME2 they'll most likely settle for a happy medium where you can show mild dissatisfaction or approval of being back with the Alliance.

I mean think about it, if the Alliance has took back the Normandy SR2, then how exactly is Shepard going to fly around if Shep tells the Alliance to go swivel... let's not also forget even if you did have that option, it'd most likely lead to a Mission Critical Failure due to Alliance deciding to throw you into Prison.

[aimlessgun]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Shepard: Yes. i know. I stopped enough of their 'experiments' before i died; and at the first opportunity i will gut them like a fish, but for now they are the only group to even acknowledge the reaper threat.

And on the renegade side, another better one would be:

"Vasir, I'm right and you're wrong. Do you know why? Because I'm alive....and you're dead."  *BLAM BLAM BLAM*

The current options for that convo are just terrible for everyone.

[Phaedon]

Mesina2 wrote...
What makes you think that?

Because we know some of the major players in the Alliance are Hackett and Anderson.

[Phaedon]

Ahglock wrote...
In ME1 it made sense in the context of the character.  You are an alliance soldier, so being forced to by orders works to some degree.  You are an alliance soldier and you wake up in the med bay of a Cerberus experiment and you just go along with them does not make much sense.  It requires a lot more than what they gave us to make it plausible, at best you have people accepting it because it is a game.

Anderson never said that "this is an order". "You've gotta do this Shep, it's for the good of yoomanity!"

Working with Cerberus is hardly 'unexplainable'.
The game explains it to you several times, though it is understandable why you won't like it. It's a plot device.
TIM: Missing colonies! MISSING COLONIES! EVERYONE PANIC.
Shepard: Yeah, I see your point, though I would rather ask the help of the Alliance and the Counc-
TIM: Oh, yeah, that you can, iiiif you think that they'll help.
Shepard: What's that supposed to-
Joker: Shepard! I am glad to see you! Also yeah, the Alliance are major asses buttockses and they didn't care about us.
Shepard: Hmm, okay, but there is still Anderson and-
Anderson: Hey, Shepard, yeah, nobody else believes us.
Shepard: But that makes no sense, they can obviously see that this is Reaper technolodgy, can't they take some circuits off Sovereign and compare them to-
Anderson: To?
Shepard: I don't know, some other kind of known Reaper artifact. *crosses arms*
TIM: And yeah, we are pretty much the only one who cares about the colonists.
Shepard: Pfffffff, fine.

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 mai 2011 - 05:36 .

[CroGamer002]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

In both games, you could insult the Council and TIM, and well, let's be honest, you are going to join the Alliance in ME3, and you don't really have the chance to hate them.

What makes you think that?

Because it is highly unlikely that they'll have Shepard hating the Alliance even if some people did have their Sheps not only stating they weren't with the Alliance but were also pissed off with them. As has been said by others with regards how Cerberus was handled in ME2 they'll most likely settle for a happy medium where you can show mild dissatisfaction or approval of being back with the Alliance.

I mean think about it, if the Alliance has took back the Normandy SR2, then how exactly is Shepard going to fly around if Shep tells the Alliance to go swivel... let's not also forget even if you did have that option, it'd most likely lead to a Mission Critical Failure due to Alliance deciding to throw you into Prison.

Well I want just an option to say that I dislike Alliance.

I don't need to kiss they're ass. I didn't had to with Council and Cerberus and I had option to say I dislike them.

Phaedon wrote...

Because we know some of the major players in the Alliance are Hackett and Anderson.

I can still hate Alliance but love those guys.

Unless they fully take over leadership of Alliance, I want an option to say that I don't like Alliance( anymore).

[Phaedon]

Mesina2 wrote...
I can still hate Alliance but love those guys.

Unless they fully take over leadership of Alliance, I want an option to say that I don't like Alliance( anymore).

Yeah, but you would need some new sort of new admiral character to appear in order to be able to yell at him/her. Yelling at Anderson and Hackett wouldn't work, and otherwise you'd feel as if you are being forced to join the Alliance.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Ahglock wrote...
In ME1 it made sense in the context of the character.  You are an alliance soldier, so being forced to by orders works to some degree.  You are an alliance soldier and you wake up in the med bay of a Cerberus experiment and you just go along with them does not make much sense.  It requires a lot more than what they gave us to make it plausible, at best you have people accepting it because it is a game.

Anderson never said that "this is an order". "You've gotta do this Shep, it's for the good of yoomanity!"

Working with Cerberus is hardly 'unexplainable'.
The game explains it to you several times, though it is understandable why you won't like it. It's a plot device.
TIM: Missing colonies! MISSING COLONIES! EVERYONE PANIC.
Shepard: Yeah, I see your point, though I would rather ask the help of the Alliance and the Counc-
TIM: Oh, yeah, that you can, iiiif you think that they'll help.
Shepard: What's that supposed to-
Joker: Shepard! I am glad to see you! Also yeah, the Alliance are major asses buttockses and they didn't care about us.
Shepard: Hmm, okay, but there is still Anderson and-
Anderson: Hey, Shepard, yeah, nobody else believes us.
Shepard: But that makes no sense, they can obviously see that this is Reaper technolodgy, can't they take some circuits off Sovereign and compare them to-
Anderson: To?
Shepard: I don't know, some other kind of known Reaper artifact. *crosses arms*
TIM: And yeah, we are pretty much the only one who cares about the colonists.
Shepard: Pfffffff, fine.

Plus I'd like to add that Council was afraid to send patrols near their borders in ME1 do to being afraid of causing war with Terminus System's.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...
I can still hate Alliance but love those guys.

Unless they fully take over leadership of Alliance, I want an option to say that I don't like Alliance( anymore).

Yeah, but you would need some new sort of new admiral character to appear in order to be able to yell at him/her. Yelling at Anderson and Hackett wouldn't work, and otherwise you'd feel as if you are being forced to join the Alliance.

I don't need to yell at some Admiral.
I can talk to people( like with Kaidan about Council or Tali about Cerberus) and say I don't like Alliance( anymore).

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Nice post Terror. I wholeheartedly agree.

Also you forgot to mention Akuze if Shepard is a sole survivor who learned the truth.

[88mphSlayer]

my shorter summarized response to this topic is simply that:

IF you force a position on players

THEN you need to give those players room to get comfortable with that position

in many ways Mass Effect 1 was not just a story about stopping Saren and the averting catastrophe at the end, it was more about letting players get comfortable with the position of being intergalactic "above the law" super-cop

this is basically what being a "role" playing game is, in many ways in ME2 we never get the chance to stretch out and feel what it's like to "role play" a rogue dead spectre as everything is too modular and focused for players to truly become comfortable with the new position they've been handed, this modular-feel ends up making players feel like they're in a prison which ends up making paragon players want to go back to the alliance and renegade players want to go more rogue or have more say in who they owe loyalty to

basically claustrophobia in an rpg is a really, really bad thing, while it might be a cool idea to force something onto players you've got to weave that change into a role they can become comfortable with, if they never become comfortable with it the experience ends up being negative

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 24 mai 2011 - 05:56 .