237 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I'm not saying that the Hegemony controlled the region in the first place, just that they were there first. It doesn't imply control, but it does imply that the Alliance was the interloper.

Again, we find Turian corpses but not Batarian. We know from the Codex that the Turians surveyed it. Since the Batarians were an associate race before the Turians were even encountered (200 BCE vs 700 CE), how is it that the Turians were the ones doing the surveying? Are you arguing that they invaded Batarian space just to survey it?

If they weren't invading Batarian space, then the Batarians weren't the first there.

Do you mean to say that, with the Hegemony funding raids up and down the Verge and Traverse, the economy is taking a hit? That might be true of the Alliance, but the Verge is a backwater compared to the places the more developed species have as their industrial and economic bases, places like Illium, which is a powerhouse unto itself. It may adversely affect the Alliance, but that doesn't bother the Council.

Before the Alliance, the Batarians were committing raids and attacks on Council worlds while an associate member. That suggests they are likely not the best trading partners, doesn't it? And they can't be that backwater if they were hitting Council worlds.

Ah, I get you. That's true, there is some inconsistency in the lore. But we have cold hard statistics to help out: 1 million on Camala, 300,000 on Aratoht, millions on Elysium. Is this a retcon? Or an inconsistency as a result of a writer not cross-checking the material? Maybe. I can let it slip in that key word, "rarely". With those systems being so close to the border, it is likely that you would see proportionately more batarians than on the Citadel, Palaven, Sur'Kesh or Thessia.

A point I'd like to slip in here in relation to you saying "just one jump away", it is very likely that the speed at which we see Shepard travel across massive regions of space is missing out all the travel time, which is probably weeks in between locations. Remember, you've got to travel through space, which is slow even with the best FTL the Alliance has (a dozen lightyears in a day's cruise aboard a fast military ship) to get to a relay to begin with.

If there is a retcon it is more that the codex says the Batarians pulled back to their 'home systems.' It is hard to consider a world that the Batarians colonized only recently (since the Alliance had first chance and pulled out) to be a 'home system.'

I agree, it's an educated guess. Given the tensions, I highly doubt batarians and humans live as neighbours. The planet is probably divided up just like Watson. So I wholly agree, there is nothing to suggest there is any sort of joint ownership.

You say it is divided up but that there is no joint ownership. Which is it?

The Council quite possibly said that, to which the batarians said no. Why should they share it when they have been in the region for quite some time already, enough time to develop a colony of a million people even before the Alliance started moving in? Just like the case with Antarctica, I wouldn't be surprised if they claimed the entire region with Council approval. Again, this is an educated guess based on what we know about Hegemony politics and their compaint to the Council.

But the Batarians hadn't 'been in the region', at least no more than the Turians. The portion the Batarians were occupying wasn't in question. Neither the Alliance nor Council were asking the Batarians to leave.

And a world with a million people doesn't mean much when the Alliance has a world there with millions. Even at a conservative 3 million, and even taking into account half that being non-human, that would still be 1.5 million humans and regardless 'millions' of Alliance citizens. By the way, if half the populaiton was as you suggested Batarian, how did they react to the Blitz? If Batarians stood beside Humans on Elysium, why would there be the racial tensions that exist now? If they were there and didn't stand with the Humans, you are suggesting that pirates attacked the world and inexplicably ignored half the population? You aren't making much sense here.

[Vengeful Nature]

Moiaussi wrote...

Again, we find Turian corpses but not Batarian. We know from the Codex that the Turians surveyed it. Since the Batarians were an associate race before the Turians were even encountered (200 BCE vs 700 CE), how is it that the Turians were the ones doing the surveying? Are you arguing that they invaded Batarian space just to survey it?

If they weren't invading Batarian space, then the Batarians weren't the first there.

Do we see any turian colonies? Nope. They may have surveryed it, but they obviously chose not to settle it.

Also, as partners under the authority of the Citadel, turian explorers would be well within their rights to use batarian space as a base for the exploration of the Verge. They were officially allies back then, after all.

Before the Alliance, the Batarians were committing raids and attacks on Council worlds while an associate member. That suggests they are likely not the best trading partners, doesn't it? And they can't be that backwater if they were hitting Council worlds.

All the more reason to force them out of Citadel Space with dirty tricks.

And I meant that the Verge was backwater, compared to the power houses of Illium and other established Citadel worlds. Economic disruption in the region wouldn't bother the Council.

If there is a retcon it is more that the codex says the Batarians pulled back to their 'home systems.' It is hard to consider a world that the Batarians colonized only recently (since the Alliance had first chance and pulled out) to be a 'home system.'

The Alliance didn't have first chance. The Hegemony was already in the region when the Alliance starting moving in. Camala proves this.

Additionally, Camala might be considered a home system, given it's high population.

You say it is divided up but that there is no joint ownership. Which is it?

Errr... they both mean the same thing?

But the Batarians hadn't 'been in the region', at least no more than the Turians. The portion the Batarians were occupying wasn't in question. Neither the Alliance nor Council were asking the Batarians to leave.

And a world with a million people doesn't mean much when the Alliance has a world there with millions. Even at a conservative 3 million, and even taking into account half that being non-human, that would still be 1.5 million humans and regardless 'millions' of Alliance citizens. By the way, if half the populaiton was as you suggested Batarian, how did they react to the Blitz? If Batarians stood beside Humans on Elysium, why would there be the racial tensions that exist now? If they were there and didn't stand with the Humans, you are suggesting that pirates attacked the world and inexplicably ignored half the population? You aren't making much sense here.

Again, turians surveyed it but didn't settle it. They obvisouly saw no reason to, possibly for the same economic reasons we discussed earlier regarding the Alliance's choice not to settle Aratoht.

Why should they ask the batarians to leave? They settled the region first. So I agree, they wouldn't ask them. They had absolutely no right to. The point is that the Alliance was on iffy ground when it started to develop the region (even though, in a perfect world, they could both settle it), and the Council was wrong to allow both governments to settle the region alonside each other, knowing the likelyhood of territorial disputes given the nature and policies of both governments.

Re: that would still be 1.5 million humans and Alliance citizens - Yes, and, likewise, on the other hand, it would still be 1.5 million Hegemony citizens. That is cause enough for the Hegemony to lable Elysium's system as a 'home system'.

It would make perfect sense that Elysium was a focal point during the Blitz if both the Hegemony and the Alliance were claiming the planet. What's implausible about the Blitz coalition ignoring batarian areas and focusing on the human ones? Especially if they are spread out across the planet, and payed by the people who represent this untouched half of the colony. You've actually inspired me here - racial tensions on Elysium would make a really good story! Imagine, what happened in Bosnia, but on the scale of an entire planet! Ethnic cleansing, warlords committing attrocities, mass graves uncovered decades later. That makes for some powerful storytelling!

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 27 mai 2011 - 10:58 .

[SkittlesKat96]

The Batarians are angry at the Alliance and Citadel species and all that but Shepard was instigating a war by doing that (even though it was for the right reason kind of) and war is serious stuff, the Batarians have probably been waiting to start a full scale war or something. Maybe they'll hire mercenaries or something too.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Now, I can't say I ever got that impression, and I'd be curious as to what gave you that idea. The Terminus, after all, is far more than the Batarian Hegemony: it's an entire galactic region of what's implied to be dozens/hundreds of independent worlds, disreputable nations, piracy and merc groups and more. That's the region where poor-man's WMD's, like bioweapons and colony drops and more, are rampant vis-a-vis the Council's stability. And that's back from the ME1 codexes: in ME2, our Terminus adventures rarely go into 'Batarian' space in particular.

I dunno what gave me that impression. Maybe it's just something I picked up when first playing and just stuck.

The way I understood it was like this: the Hegemony storms off the Citadel, effectively becoming a rogue state in the eyes of the Council. Almost immediately, every independantly-minded person or group floods to into batarian space. The Hegemony is just inundated with these groups and can't close the doors at this point. Batarian space then fractures, becoming the nucleus of what today is called the Terminus systems. Before the Hegemony left, there were independant systems on the fringes but nothing to warrant such a high profile case.

Am I way off here?

Pretty sure you are. Even the ME1 codex on the Terminus rather emphasizes that it's far, far more than the Batarians, both in terms of nations and species involved. The Batarian departure is also recent, while Aria's been rulling Omega for centuries.

I agree that it might be a factor, but not the defining one. I think more emphasis would be put purely on what can be taken out of this world. If it came down to a choice between a gashouse that's brimming with useful minerals, or a pretty world with breathable air but pretty dull under the crust... well, you get the picture.

I quite like the idea that Grissom had a sense of humour, and was basically saying to the batarians, "this planet smells funny, I think I'll go for these ten others that smell like raspberry and new car. Hey four-eyes, you want this dungball?"

A point about colonies, however, is that while extraction is one aspect of the value, the maintanence costs/ease of living is another. The two biggest requirements for Human colonization in-mass are (a) water and ( breathable air: any colony which requires space suits to go outside is fundamentally just a mining operation, and those are plenty enough in space as it is. It's the reason that most worlds are actually uncolonized: when you have to ship in your food, water, but also your air for breathing, the resources to be extracted become offset by the costs to keep alive.

All the species do resource-extraction 'minor' colonies, but for major-settlement colonies air quality is always one of the defining features when we see it throughout the galaxy.

I know, right? It makes me excited to think that, even if was an accident, the writer's managed to create this outwardly-shiny, inwardly-ruthless, corrupt, unscrupulous and downright coldly effective (for the most part) interstellar government whose schemes take centuries to unfold and are as comfortable using entire rival nations as weapons as they are their apocalyptically powerful warships, if not more so.

It's part of the reason I love the Mass Effect universe so much.

I've always felt that the big thing about the Paragon/Renegade divide is that it's a standard dependent on the Council's views. A Paragon is what the Council claims to want, while the Renegade is more reflective of what the Council is, and so a Human Paragon is really just usurping the Council's claim to idealism (by actually being idealistic) while the Renegades are really just winning at the Council's own game.


The writers created such a wonderful grimm-shiney world, it's a shame what they (don't) do with it sometimes.

If you find this kind of "utopia" inspiring, you'd love Iain M. Banks' Culture novels. They revolve around a society that is so egalitarian it is run entirely by hyper-advanced AI's, finds the concept of money so outdated that it is rumoured the be hoarding vast amounts of it, and is such an open society that it has a legendary secret service. I highly recommend them.

I have a strong personal dislike of the Culture, mainly from a viewpoint of 'BUT ECONOMY DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT' and moving on down.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 mai 2011 - 11:06 .

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Do we see any turian colonies? Nope. They may have surveryed it, but they obviously chose not to settle it.

Also, as partners under the authority of the Citadel, turian explorers would be well within their rights to use batarian space as a base for the exploration of the Verge. They were officially allies back then, after all.

Empty worlds are colonies of neither. If the Batarians had already surveyed the region (a) why would there be no Batarian corpses, and ( why would the Turians need to re-survey? You keep avoiding both questions.

All the more reason to force them out of Citadel Space with dirty tricks.

And I meant that the Verge was backwater, compared to the power houses of Illium and other established Citadel worlds. Economic disruption in the region wouldn't bother the Council.

Funny, how does disputing a claim over a region someone obviously does not control equate to a dirty trick? And if economic disruption in the region doesn't bother the council, why do they run anti piracy patrols?

The Alliance didn't have first chance. The Hegemony was already in the region when the Alliance starting moving in. Camala proves this.

Additionally, Camala might be considered a home system, given it's high population.

Let's try this again. Camala has a population of ONE million. Elysium has a population of MILLIONS, plural. By your logic, the Alliance must have started colonization first. And 'in the region' doesn't mean a lot. Iceland and Greenland were colonized by scandenavia before North America was colonized by europeans. North America was claimed by Norway before France or Spain or England landed any troops here. That doesn't mean it ended up Norwegian. In fact despite various claims, most of it ended up English before getting independance, with various wars, land sales and treaties changing the boundries considerably before it was all sorted out.

Border colonies don't equate to ownership of entire regions. Otherwise, whoever is on the outer edge owns the rest of the galaxy, which I doubt anyone at all would agree with.

Errr... they both mean the same thing?

Yes they do, but you were saying no to one and yes to the other.

Again, turians surveyed it but didn't settle it. They obvisouly saw no reason to, possibly for the same economic reasons we discussed earlier regarding the Alliance's choice not to settle Aratoht.

But Batarians didn't settle it either. They settled parts of it, which isn't the same thing.

Why should they ask the batarians to leave? They settled the region first. So I agree, they wouldn't ask them. They had absolutely no right to. The point is that the Alliance was on iffy ground when it started to develop the region (even though, in a perfect world, they could both settle it), and the Council was wrong to allow both governments to settle the region alonside each other, knowing the likelyhood of territorial disputes given the nature and policies of both governments.

I never said they should be asked to leave. I only said that the Batarians only control what they control, i.e. what they colonize. This isn't a region they had completely colonized or even colonized much at all. Quit portraying it as something it isn't. One low population world is not evidence of significant anything, and 1 million is low population.

Re: that would still be 1.5 million humans and Alliance citizens - Yes, and, likewise, on the other hand, it would still be 1.5 million Hegemony citizens. That is cause enough for the Hegemony to lable Elysium's system as a 'home system'.

There is no evidence at all though that the other 1.5 million are Batarian, and if they were it makes no sense at all with respect to the Blitz. You also persist in a completely unsubstantiated assumption that race = citizenship. Horizon, Noveria, Omega and countless other worlds in ME prove otherwise. 

It would make perfect sense that Elysium was a focal point during the Blitz if both the Hegemony and the Alliance were claiming the planet. What's implausible about the Blitz coalition ignoring batarian areas and focusing on the human ones? Especially if they are spread out across the planet, and payed by the people who represent this untouched half of the colony. You've actually inspired me here - racial tensions on Elysium would make a really good story! Imagine, what happened in Bosnia, but on the scale of an entire planet! Ethnic cleansing, warlords committing attrocities, mass graves uncovered decades later. That makes for some powerful storytelling!

Your version is completely unsubstantiated. And why would the Alliance retalliate against Torfan rather than a Hegemony nation on Elysium? Every character in the game blames the Blitz on the Batarians and doesn't consider the pirates as neutrals. You really are living in your own version of ME.

[Vengeful Nature]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Pretty sure you are. Even the ME1 codex on the Terminus rather emphasizes that it's far, far more than the Batarians, both in terms of nations and species involved. The Batarian departure is also recent, while Aria's been rulling Omega for centuries.

True, though her control could predate the Terminus' creation. All we know is she took control of Omega centuries ago, we don't know about the political circumstances around Omega at the time.

A point about colonies, however, is that while extraction is one aspect of the value, the maintanence costs/ease of living is another. The two biggest requirements for Human colonization in-mass are (a) water and ( breathable air: any colony which requires space suits to go outside is fundamentally just a mining operation, and those are plenty enough in space as it is. It's the reason that most worlds are actually uncolonized: when you have to ship in your food, water, but also your air for breathing, the resources to be extracted become offset by the costs to keep alive.

All the species do resource-extraction 'minor' colonies, but for major-settlement colonies air quality is always one of the defining features when we see it throughout the galaxy.

I don't really like the idea that surveyors would see an nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere and think "well, better start shipping in the millions, then." Think about the Alliance's return of investment. What do they get out of a metropolis on a world with breathable air in return for transporting people there in the first place, especially when you can instead put a colony on a place that's full to the brim with eezo, by far the most valuable commodity in Citadel Space? It's just colonisation for colonisation's sake.

I think the focus would be far more on systems with substantial resources, because you get much more back from your investment, especially when you're at a technological state to be able to engineer plants for higher oxygen and/or food yields and build extremely efficient water recycling systems. You're far more likely to have large cities springing up around these places, because the colony would expand to cater for the primary industry's needs and wants, with service industries springing up to take care of the workers when they've got a couple of days off. Then they start moving their families in so they don't have to travel light years to see them, and more sectors develop around their needs and wants.

If you have a planet with both breathable air and plentiful natural resources, then you've hit the jackpot. Terra Nova, for example. But given the massive variation of planets in our galaxy, how often is that going to happen?

I've always felt that the big thing about the Paragon/Renegade divide is that it's a standard dependent on the Council's views. A Paragon is what the Council claims to want, while the Renegade is more reflective of what the Council is, and so a Human Paragon is really just usurping the Council's claim to idealism (by actually being idealistic) while the Renegades are really just winning at the Council's own game.

The writers created such a wonderful grimm-shiney world, it's a shame what they (don't) do with it sometimes.

I agree. Every time I see some ridiculous comic book released, I see a squandered opportunity for any interesting story.

If you find this kind of "utopia" inspiring, you'd love Iain M. Banks' Culture novels. They revolve around a society that is so egalitarian it is run entirely by hyper-advanced AI's, finds the concept of money so outdated that it is rumoured the be hoarding vast amounts of it, and is such an open society that it has a legendary secret service. I highly recommend them.

I have a strong personal dislike of the Culture, mainly from a viewpoint of 'BUT ECONOMY DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT' and moving on down.

Really? Keep in mind that the Culture is tens of millennia more advanced than current standards. It's a post-scarcity civilisation, so material needs aren't a concern because of vast technological improvements. Unless you have a problem with the concept of a post-scarcity society in the first place? Never mind, let's not derail this thread any further.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 28 mai 2011 - 11:21 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Moiaussi wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

First off, indentured servants aren't necessarily beholden to fair and well enforced regulations like on Illium. Case in point, many slaves held in the US were indentured servants initially in order to gain sponsorship into the country from Europe but the contracts weren't exactly fair and they ended up serving much, much longer than they agreed to doing tasks that they hadn't agreed to.

Let's say that some of the indentured servants are Batarians as that seems likely, Batarian intergalactic politics being what they are. That doesn't nullify the possibility of the existance of slaves of other species and if even a dozen such slaves existed, your point would then be invalid. You were arguing that the Batarians were not worth protecting, that because they are outside of galactic society and because many of the batarians we encounter in the galaxy are pirates, slaves, or terrorists that the species has no inherent value that would be worth protecting.

That is your opinion and I have no way of refuting that that Mesina hasn't already tried. Instead I will point out that slaves were killed that weren't batarians, in all probability, and that because of that your argument is fatally flawed. You cannot argue that the destruction of the system was moral because those killed were batarians if people that aren't batarians are killed as well.

You then move on to claim that the destruction of the system was a necessary military sacrifice and I agree. Were it a human, turian, asari, salarian, or krogan system I would make the same choice again. It had to be done. However, this is a departure from your earlier stance and is in fact completely unrelated to it (unless I missed one of your posts were you previously argued this) and I find that slightly dishonest.

Finally, the discussion of both of these topics is quite irrelevant because the topic of the thread is whether or not the Council can actually take legal action against Shepard for his actions in the Viper Nebula. The reason being that if there were slaves on that planet that were not in fact batarian and were in fact of a council race then the Council (and by extension the Alliance) would be able to take action regardless of jurisdiction. The Batarians may not be a citadel species anymore but humans, turians, and asari are.

Not to mention the fact that a major Relay was destroyed completely and utterly. That has to be against a council law as just activating one when you haven't found its twin is outlawed. 

Also, jurisdiction means nothing to spectres. It is safe to assume that the same applies to the Council when a spectre does something untoward. 

Before I reply to the rest of what I said, I should point out that you are missing a couple important points in what I have been posting.

1) Our respective points regarding racial composition of the slaves is supposition on both our parts. There is no evidence either way on whether the Batarians enslave their own or not. It is tough to consider an arguement 'fatally flawed' based on information you cannot back up.

2) My point regarding the racial mix, and for that matter the existance of a significant military presence is contingent on their being a state of war. I am not claiming that there is currently any such state of war. I was merely responding to points others were making and presenting as if they are fact. Several times though I have also said that said facts, either way, are academic. I have several times agreed that this is irrelvant and the only reason I have responded is that I dislike leaving statements I consider questionable unchallenged.

Now as for the rest of your post, "Humans, Turians, and Asari" are not automatically Council citizens. They are considered 'Council races', but that is because any given empire is nigh racially pure simply due to the population levels involved. There are plenty of examples of 'free worlds,' independant of Council rule and there are mixed race worlds such as Elysium, which is an Alliance colony, but approximately 50% non-human.

Again though, that is academic.

 Besides being a Spectre, Shepard is still considered an Alliance (and Council) citizen and can be tried under Council rules against use of WMD's, and tampering with relays (as you suggest).

I have already said this in other posts, btw.

Well then, it seems we are actually in agreement about Shepard's culpability. My mistake.

And yes, you make a good point about my rather liberal interpretation of the word fatal (hehe). Point taken, I was wrong.

[Vengeful Nature]

Moiaussi wrote...

Empty worlds are colonies of neither. If the Batarians had already surveyed the region (a) why would there be no Batarian corpses, and ( why would the Turians need to re-survey? You keep avoiding both questions.

No, but populated worlds are. And, as we have discussed, colonial governments will use far less than that to claim an entire empty region.

(a) I don't know. Perhaps it could be because batarians didn't have an in-game model before Bring Down the Sky. Or perhaps it's because the writers wanted to tell us stories about turian and salarian history. It really doesn't matter.

( ... when did they re-survey it? I don't understand where your getting that from. They surveyed it once with pioneer teams from different colonies and an interferometric telescope array.

Funny, how does disputing a claim over a region someone obviously does not control equate to a dirty trick? And if economic disruption in the region doesn't bother the council, why do they run anti piracy patrols?

Again, you've misunderstood me. It was presumably a dirty trick on the part of the Council to let both governments develop the Verge, knowing that it would lead to hostilities.

The Council doesn't run anti-piracy patrols, the Alliance does. Anderson out and out says that the Council aren't helping the Alliance in the Verge in any way.

Let's try this again. Camala has a population of ONE million. Elysium has a population of MILLIONS, plural. By your logic, the Alliance must have started colonization first. And 'in the region' doesn't mean a lot. Iceland and Greenland were colonized by scandenavia before North America was colonized by europeans. North America was claimed by Norway before France or Spain or England landed any troops here. That doesn't mean it ended up Norwegian. In fact despite various claims, most of it ended up English before getting independance, with various wars, land sales and treaties changing the boundries considerably before it was all sorted out.

Border colonies don't equate to ownership of entire regions. Otherwise, whoever is on the outer edge owns the rest of the galaxy, which I doubt anyone at all would agree with.

No, my logic is that the batarians started colonising first because they have colonies, other than just Elysium, of millions of people. Elysium is the only Alliance colony in the region that is that advanced, and they aren't even the only ones on the planet.

Border colonies do equate to ownership of entire regions, in the eyes of the governments involved. Is it dodgy? Yes. But it's the way colonial governments work. The instances you've stated are great examples of that.

Yes they do, but you were saying no to one and yes to the other.

No I'm not. The Terminus Systems and the Verge are divided up and there is no joint ownership. It means the same thing. The batarians sought to claim full ownership of the region.

But Batarians didn't settle it either. They settled parts of it, which isn't the same thing.

Again, not to a territorial government.

Let's use your government as an example for that. Canada sought to reinforce it's claim on areas of the Arctic Circle by relocating people further north and putting a military base there. (Disclaimer: I'm not judging your government in any way, this is a natural act for a government and I wish them the best of luck. I'd rather have Canadians running the far north than the Russians.)

Governments have, for time immemorial, used the slightest excuse to claim an entire unpopulated region. In the case of the treaty that Dean_the_Young mentioned, the Treaty of Tordesillas, Portugal and Spain divided up pretty much the entire known world at the time between themselves with virtually no real claim to them. And those areas weren't even unpopulated.

I never said they should be asked to leave. I only said that the Batarians only control what they control, i.e. what they colonize. This isn't a region they had completely colonized or even colonized much at all. Quit portraying it as something it isn't. One low population world is not evidence of significant anything, and 1 million is low population.

Again, see above.

There is no evidence at all though that the other 1.5 million are Batarian, and if they were it makes no sense at all with respect to the Blitz. You also persist in a completely unsubstantiated assumption that race = citizenship. Horizon, Noveria, Omega and countless other worlds in ME prove otherwise.

It's an educated guess based on the fact that the Alliance and the Hegemony are the only direct players in the region.

Elysium is an entire planet. That's a very big place. The Blitz could have easily missed entire sections of the planet and focused on the human bits. What's hard to believe about that? The likelihood is, given tensions, the Hegemony and Alliance control different parts of the planet.

I never made any arguments related to citizenship. The Alliance is colonising Elysium, so the humans on that planet are Alliance citizens. That's as far as that goes.

Your version is completely unsubstantiated. And why would the Alliance retalliate against Torfan rather than a Hegemony nation on Elysium? Every character in the game blames the Blitz on the Batarians and doesn't consider the pirates as neutrals. You really are living in your own version of ME.

Torfan was a military target, and a place in which key figures directly responsible for the Blitz were hiding.

*sigh* All I'm doing is speculating on the reasons behind certain events. We all know those events happened, they're in everyone's copy of Mass Effect. I'm using educated guesses and knowledge about the way colonial governments work to get to the bottom of the political situation in the Verge, in relation to the destruction of the Bahak system (there, I worked in a thing about how what were discussing isn't off topic .)

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 28 mai 2011 - 12:05 .

[Nightdragon8]

Honestly yes he did break council laws I don't think mass destruction in under the prevue of Spectres tho it was allowed on Virmire. Because a race of Krogan free of the Geopage is a huge problem.

So as it is right now Shepeard is a criminal. The moment the Reapers show up and start eating planets. Is when he will be seen as a Hero that did what he had to do in order to give everyone a fighting chance. So in that point he was the first and going to be the last line of defense of the Council. Which IS what a Spectre, is sposed to do. And be. So at that point he is the ideal Spectre. He did what he had to do to defend the Council.

So he will be given a pardon or dismissal of all charges.

Modifié par Nightdragon8, 04 juin 2011 - 05:03 .

[Homebound]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Shepard doesn't necessarily have to break any Citadel/Alliance laws to be executed if political pressure (to avoid war with the baterians) requires Citadel/Alliance officials to do something.

Also, killing civilians is a war crime.

this.

[Bloodleash]

Alliance Official: Shepard, you risk a full scale war with the Batarians after what you've just done. Report to Earth immediately for trial.

Shepard: You really think you're going to 'run in' a Spectre?

Alliance Official: Son of a...

Modifié par Bloodleash, 04 juin 2011 - 08:22 .

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

No, but populated worlds are. And, as we have discussed, colonial governments will use far less than that to claim an entire empty region.

(a) I don't know. Perhaps it could be because batarians didn't have an in-game model before Bring Down the Sky. Or perhaps it's because the writers wanted to tell us stories about turian and salarian history. It really doesn't matter.

( ... when did they re-survey it? I don't understand where your getting that from. They surveyed it once with pioneer teams from different colonies and an interferometric telescope array.

a) is basicly saying it is a retcon, despite no evidence to back that up.

Someone had to have surveyed it first. If it was the Batarians, why did the Turians do so in addtion after it was already claimed by the Batarians? If the Turians surveyed it first, then how do the Batarians have any claim to it based on being there first?

Again, you've misunderstood me. It was presumably a dirty trick on the part of the Council to let both governments develop the Verge, knowing that it would lead to hostilities.

They didn't know it would lead to hostilities and indeed the Batarians never directly became hostile. They put negligible resources into defending their claim.

The Council doesn't run anti-piracy patrols, the Alliance does. Anderson out and out says that the Council aren't helping the Alliance in the Verge in any way.

Here is the relevant codex quote:

At least once a year, a fleet from Terminus invades the nearby Attican Traverse. These attacks are typically small raids against poorly-defended colonies. The Council rarely retaliates, as sending patrols into the Terminus Systems could unify the disparate species against their common foe, triggering a long and costly war.

"Rarely retaliates' means they do on occasion retalliate. The codex says they sometimes do retaliate, albiet rarely. Also, the Collector cruiser did encounter a Turian patrol before setting up as a trap.

No, my logic is that the batarians started colonising first because they have colonies, other than just Elysium, of millions of people. Elysium is the only Alliance colony in the region that is that advanced, and they aren't even the only ones on the planet.

Border colonies do equate to ownership of entire regions, in the eyes of the governments involved. Is it dodgy? Yes. But it's the way colonial governments work. The instances you've stated are great examples of that.

Napoleon, Hilter and others thought the entire world belonged to them. Colmbus technically claimed all of the Americas in the name of Spain. Claims only mean something when they are recognized by competitors. Spain ended up with much of South and Central America, as well as Califorina. Russia ended up with Alaska. Everyone had claims in the Carribean, and North America was fought over by the Brits and French, and later Brits and the US, and Mexicans and US.

Canada's northern borders are still under dispute and there are often fisheries disputes between Canada and the US that are effectively border disputes.

Ownership is never as simple as saying you own something.

No I'm not. The Terminus Systems and the Verge are divided up and there is no joint ownership. It means the same thing. The batarians sought to claim full ownership of the region.

And the rest of civilization objected, not that much different than has happened with any other new territory at any given point in history.

Again, not to a territorial government.

Let's use your government as an example for that. Canada sought to reinforce it's claim on areas of the Arctic Circle by relocating people further north and putting a military base there. (Disclaimer: I'm not judging your government in any way, this is a natural act for a government and I wish them the best of luck. I'd rather have Canadians running the far north than the Russians.)

Governments have, for time immemorial, used the slightest excuse to claim an entire unpopulated region. In the case of the treaty that Dean_the_Young mentioned, the Treaty of Tordesillas, Portugal and Spain divided up pretty much the entire known world at the time between themselves with virtually no real claim to them. And those areas weren't even unpopulated.

That is the point though.. they can claim anything they want. I can claim the moon but unless everyone else is willing to accept my claim, my claim means nothing. Simply calling 'dibs' doesn't make it so.

It's an educated guess based on the fact that the Alliance and the Hegemony are the only direct players in the region.

Elysium is an entire planet. That's a very big place. The Blitz could have easily missed entire sections of the planet and focused on the human bits. What's hard to believe about that? The likelihood is, given tensions, the Hegemony and Alliance control different parts of the planet.

I never made any arguments related to citizenship. The Alliance is colonising Elysium, so the humans on that planet are Alliance citizens. That's as far as that goes.

It is hard to believe because there is no evidence even remotely supporting your premise. At the very least, one would think that any Batarian colony would have been asked to help defend and whether they helped either side or stayed neutral would be rather important to mention. You are pulling this suggestion out of a hat.

Torfan was a military target, and a place in which key figures directly responsible for the Blitz were hiding.

*sigh* All I'm doing is speculating on the reasons behind certain events. We all know those events happened, they're in everyone's copy of Mass Effect. I'm using educated guesses and knowledge about the way colonial governments work to get to the bottom of the political situation in the Verge, in relation to the destruction of the Bahak system (there, I worked in a thing about how what were discussing isn't off topic .)

And yet for some reason, the Batarians stopped there colonization efforts in the area because the Alliance defeated some pirates. You aren't making educated guesses, you are making wild speculations not supported by the facts.

It is relevant in that it would be useful to Shepard's defence to show a lack of motive on his part, and Shepard openly arguing that the Batarians aren't a threat and that given that he has no quarrel with him begs the question why he would deliberately target them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Bloodleash wrote...

Alliance Official: Shepard, you risk a full scale war with the Batarians after what you've just done. Report to Earth immediately for trial.

Shepard: You really think you're going to 'run in' a Spectre?

Alliance Official: Son of a...

Alliance Official: Shepard has been deemed a rogue Spectre. His spactre status and privileges are revoked.  You can run him in now.