237 réponses à ce sujet

[Vengeful Nature]

If I set off a nuke in a country that isn't part of the UN, I'm still a mass murderer.

[dreman9999]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

of course not he just killed 300,000 people, blew up a mass relay, and took out an entire galaxy sure no laws were broken murder is totally legal if you do it where no one is watching you...

It's Solar system....Not Galaxy....

[OmegaXI]

tomorrowstation wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

If they can charge Shepard with blowing up the relay and taking out that system then by those same standards they can charge Shepard for every person he killed in the Terminous systems, everything thing he blew up in the Terminous systems, and every other council law he broke while being in the Terminous systems.

Yes. Yes they can.

(In so much that states can and do have laws in which their citizens can't do illegal things even outside of territory. Jurisdiction goes past territory, even if enforcement often falters.)

And whats more, Shepard listened to the Council (if alive) and kept his activities in the Terminous systems. So not only did he not break any council law but he also followed his orders to keep his activities in the Terminous systems.

His orders, however, did not mandate, encourage, or expect, or pardon mass murder or destruction of a relay.

The Terminous systems do not fall under council law and spectres are abovie the law, and the Council did not tell Shepard he could not do that, they simple told him to keep his activities in the Terminous systems.

open and shut case for Shepard's lawyer.

The Council's mandate is to promote galactic stability.  Terminus is in the galaxy, and such a monumental action (like killing 300,000 and possible instigating a war) will have ramifications outside Terminus. Therefore, the Council is within their rights to charge Shep.

I could be wrong, but it seems as if the crux of your OP is that Shep is being treated unfairly by the Council. That may be, but if they want a show trial, they will have one.

Actually, this is good for qualifying why Shep's not being tried on the Citadel.

That is interesting.

Well the point I was coming to is that Shepard didn't break any council or alliance law sicne they do not have jurisdiction in the Terminous system, so Shepard would get off with a technically or at most be repremanded. If they were to charge Shepard (alliance or council) then there would be a double standard. And by charging shepard they can also charge and merc company that attacks colonies in the terminous systems.

Also the Alliance and council did not get involved when the collectors were harvesting humans in the Terminous, when just as many if not more humans were wiped out by the collector attacks. So why would they get involved for batarians? Because the batarians are threatening war? the batarians are always threatening war.

[dreman9999]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

If I set off a nuke in a country that isn't part of the UN, I'm still a mass murderer.

The question is not if your a mass murder, but if your going to be held accounted for it....

[Vengeful Nature]

dreman9999 wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

If I set off a nuke in a country that isn't part of the UN, I'm still a mass murderer.

The question is not if your a mass murder, but if your going to be held accounted for it....

If the Citadel Council is worth it's salt, it would deal with a mass murderer regardless of who the victim was, who the perpetrator was and what the circumstances were. This is why there are rules of conduct in war. Even if the enemy break those laws, how you treat your enemy is part of what makes you civilised, and is going to be remembered long after you defeat him.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 20 mai 2011 - 04:51 .

[DeadLetterBox]

OmegaXI wrote...

Also Balak tried to drop a asteroid on a human colony with over a million people, the batarians slave raid human colonies, the only reason why they are calling Shepard to Earth is to ask him why he did it. They would not bow to the batarians and give them Shepard. The differnce between Balak and Shepard is that Balak tried to kill off alot more humans and failed, while Shepard killed  off less than a million and suceeded.

So I must respectively disagree

The Alliance may not hand Shepard over to the batarians, but that doesn't mean they won't make a show of trying, convicting, and punishing Shepard themselves.  To avoid a war they can't really afford, they would absolutely do it.  Hackett said as much.  ("You be there with your dress blues on and ready to take the hit.")  Even if they had to execute Shepard I think they would do so, although they wouldn't want to.  That would be a good way to stop the war, though.  Legality isn't going to matter.  It's appearances and politics that matter.  After all, Udina grounded Shepard in the first game, and he's a civilian so he shouldn't have been able to.

Now that Hackett appears to believe in the reality of the Reaper threat, that makes it more rather than less likely that they'll serve up Shepard, as the Alliance can't afford to fight the batarians and the Reapers at the same time.

[Vanek86]

I'm confused..how would the Batarians even know who did it? Tell me who who could possibly know who caused the destruction of the mass relay other than Hackett and Shepard because as far as i know everyone involved was killed. Hackett said himself it wasn't an Alliance operation, it was a friend helping another.

[Vengeful Nature]

DeadLetterBox wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Also Balak tried to drop a asteroid on a human colony with over a million people, the batarians slave raid human colonies, the only reason why they are calling Shepard to Earth is to ask him why he did it. They would not bow to the batarians and give them Shepard. The differnce between Balak and Shepard is that Balak tried to kill off alot more humans and failed, while Shepard killed  off less than a million and suceeded.

So I must respectively disagree

The Alliance may not hand Shepard over to the batarians, but that doesn't mean they won't make a show of trying, convicting, and punishing Shepard themselves.  To avoid a war they can't really afford, they would absolutely do it.  Hackett said as much.  ("You be there with your dress blues on and ready to take the hit.")  Even if they had to execute Shepard I think they would do so, although they wouldn't want to.  That would be a good way to stop the war, though.  Legality isn't going to matter.  It's appearances and politics that matter.  After all, Udina grounded Shepard in the first game, and he's a civilian so he shouldn't have been able to.

Now that Hackett appears to believe in the reality of the Reaper threat, that makes it more rather than less likely that they'll serve up Shepard, as the Alliance can't afford to fight the batarians and the Reapers at the same time.

The Alliance would be on very shaky ground if it didn't extradite Shepard. What happened in the Bahak system was a case where the only victims were batarians, so no other authority could make a claim over him. To be honest, if the destruction of the system wasn't cause enough already, Alliance or Council refusal to extradite Shepard would be cause for a declaration of war. Of course, the Hegemony would have to think long and hard over whether it would win that war.

Yes, the Reapers put it off for now. But if anything is left after the Reapers are through, I would feel that it is of paramount importance to at least appear to extradite him. It would be a terrible precedent for what is left of society if justice for a war crime, no matter how justified, wasn't done.

[Vengeful Nature]

Vanek86 wrote...

I'm confused..how would the Batarians even know who did it? Tell me who who could possibly know who caused the destruction of the mass relay other than Hackett and Shepard because as far as i know everyone involved was killed. Hackett said himself it wasn't an Alliance operation, it was a friend helping another.

Good point.

The obvious answer would be: because the Alliance are putting him on trial for it. Great move there, Alliance. Just give the whole game away. <_<

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 20 mai 2011 - 05:07 .

[darthbuert]

Savber100 wrote...

Even he didn't break any laws, the Citadel and the Alliance would still drop Shepard like a hot potato. The dude killed 300,000 people because of some random nonsense about god-like machines coming to invade the galaxy? Pleeeaasse.

Not to mention the fact that with the asteroid destroyed along with the Reaper artifact (Rho), Shepard still has no definitive proof to present to the council that he was fighting off a genicidal race of eons-old uber-machines intent on destroying all advanced life in the galaxy...

I can almost see the Turian councilor air quoting right now...about how "no proof exists" and how fragile Shepard's mind is...

[OmegaXI]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

DeadLetterBox wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Also Balak tried to drop a asteroid on a human colony with over a million people, the batarians slave raid human colonies, the only reason why they are calling Shepard to Earth is to ask him why he did it. They would not bow to the batarians and give them Shepard. The differnce between Balak and Shepard is that Balak tried to kill off alot more humans and failed, while Shepard killed  off less than a million and suceeded.

So I must respectively disagree

The Alliance may not hand Shepard over to the batarians, but that doesn't mean they won't make a show of trying, convicting, and punishing Shepard themselves.  To avoid a war they can't really afford, they would absolutely do it.  Hackett said as much.  ("You be there with your dress blues on and ready to take the hit.")  Even if they had to execute Shepard I think they would do so, although they wouldn't want to.  That would be a good way to stop the war, though.  Legality isn't going to matter.  It's appearances and politics that matter.  After all, Udina grounded Shepard in the first game, and he's a civilian so he shouldn't have been able to.

Now that Hackett appears to believe in the reality of the Reaper threat, that makes it more rather than less likely that they'll serve up Shepard, as the Alliance can't afford to fight the batarians and the Reapers at the same time.

The Alliance would be on very shaky ground if it didn't extradite Shepard. What happened in the Bahak system was a case where the only victims were batarians, so no other authority could make a claim over him. To be honest, if the destruction of the system wasn't cause enough already, Alliance or Council refusal to extradite Shepard would be cause for a declaration of war. Of course, the Hegemony would have to think long and hard over whether it would win that war.

Yes, the Reapers put it off for now. But if anything is left after the Reapers are through, I would feel that it is of paramount importance to at least appear to extradite him. It would be a terrible precedent for what is left of society if justice for a war crime, no matter how justified, wasn't done.

Would the batarians extradite their slavers to the alliance for raiding alliance colonies or those they hired to attack human worlds? Also that planet was a military  and mining base according to the codex and it was in the process of being terraformed.

[Vengeful Nature]

OmegaXI wrote...

Would the batarians extradite their slavers to the alliance for raiding alliance colonies or those they hired to attack human worlds? Also that planet was a military  and mining base according to the codex and it was in the process of being terraformed.

No, they probably wouldn't. Like I said, how you treat your enemies is part of what makes you a civilised society. If you can't respect the rule of law, you set an awful precedent. Who knows, extraditing Shepard may even be the first step in the cessation of raids in the Skyllian Verge, perhaps even formal peace.

The planet's don't matter. 300,000 people are dead in one stroke. This is a terrible crime, no matter the circumstances, victims or the justification of the perpetrators.

[Nathan Redgrave]

No, Shepard didn't break any Council law. He just did something on his own that might instigate a war that neither the Alliance nor the Council wants, and he may even have done it under Spectre status. Also, war crimes, you tool. There is always a charge to be made. If he's considered under the authority of a military organization and does something they point-blank don't want him to do, especially something like this, there will be charges. Respectfully disagree or not, that's still how the real world works.

[OmegaXI]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

Would the batarians extradite their slavers to the alliance for raiding alliance colonies or those they hired to attack human worlds? Also that planet was a military  and mining base according to the codex and it was in the process of being terraformed.

No, they probably wouldn't. Like I said, how you treat your enemies is part of what makes you a civilised society. If you can't respect the rule of law, you set an awful precedent. Who knows, extraditing Shepard may even be the first step in the cessation of raids in the Skyllian Verge, perhaps even formal peace.

The planet's don't matter. 300,000 people are dead in one stroke. This is a terrible crime, no matter the circumstances, victims or the justification of the perpetrators.

Your morals are respectable as well as your ideals, but the batarians have there own set of morals and ideals which condones slavery (which turns someone from a person to property). From the Batarians mindset they lost maybe 100,000 people (free), but since slaves are considered property and not people to the batarians they lost 100, 000 free people and whatever 200,000 slaves are worth in property. As well as military and mining bases and some prisons. So some would consider this planet a prime military and industrial target.

sorry off topic

Modifié par OmegaXI, 20 mai 2011 - 05:56 .

[OmegaXI]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

No, Shepard didn't break any Council law. He just did something on his own that might instigate a war that neither the Alliance nor the Council wants, and he may even have done it under Spectre status. Also, war crimes, you tool. There is always a charge to be made. If he's considered under the authority of a military organization and does something they point-blank don't want him to do, especially something like this, there will be charges. Respectfully disagree or not, that's still how the real world works.

war crimes only exist if there was a signed treaty between the alliance/council and the batarians on the conduct of war which there is not. So Shepard did not commit war crimes because there where no rules of warfare with the batarians.
Also the place was a military and industrial target. But yes shepard commited mass murder, can he be charged with it by the law? no he can not , he can be repremanded at most.

Some could say he did a covert operation to hinder future batarian aggression againist humans by taking out a military and mining base.

Modifié par OmegaXI, 20 mai 2011 - 06:26 .

[Dave666]

 All I know is that (if the option is avaliable) my Shep will say: 'Who me?  Blow us a Relay?  You must have me mistaken with someone else, I was dealing with pirates who were luring ships with a false signal on Sanctum.'

The only one who knows that Shepard was involved was Hackett, everyone else died when the solar system went nova.

[vkt62]

If Shepard had killed those people a few at a time or in some way that was not obvious as genocide, it would have been fine. But governments are going to notice you killing 300000 people (Not forgetting the mass relay and the entire system) and unless an order was given by the highest powers that be, I don't think they would let him go unless he had physical evidence such as a live reaper dropping by to say hello and provide evidence for him.

[LorDC]

I always wondered how people tend to make arguments like "Blah-blah-blah Shepard didn't break the law" or like "Blah-blah-blah Shepard is Spectre so Alliance can't arrest and judge him". Where do you live guys? Countries only care about the law when it suits their needs. Neither formal nor factual crime is needed to get your ass into the jail. If Alliance or Council will want put Shepard under the trial the only thing that will be required is o catch him.

[Dave666]

LorDC wrote...

I always wondered how people tend to make arguments like "Blah-blah-blah Shepard didn't break the law" or like "Blah-blah-blah Shepard is Spectre so Alliance can't arrest and judge him". Where do you live guys? Countries only care about the law when it suits their needs. Neither formal nor factual crime is needed to get your ass into the jail. If Alliance or Council will want put Shepard under the trial the only thing that will be required is to catch him and fabricate evidence that it was Shepard.

Fixed

[AlexMBrennan]

The only one who knows that Shepard was involved was Hackett, everyone else died when the solar system went nova.

Not exactly - they suspected Dr Kenson was up to something relating to asteroids in that sector, and have footage of Shepard breaking Dr Kenson out of their prison (Shepard was out for 2 days on Project Base - enough to tell someone at HQ about the incident). Whilst there might not any actual evidence Shepard would still be the prime suspect.
In addition, a fragment of his warning to the colonists might have been picked up by other vessels in the area. Or someone might have spotted the Normandy using a relay to travel to the system before it disappeared.

[Dave666]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The only one who knows that Shepard was involved was Hackett, everyone else died when the solar system went nova.

Not exactly - they suspected Dr Kenson was up to something relating to asteroids in that sector, and have footage of Shepard breaking Dr Kenson out of their prison (Shepard was out for 2 days on Project Base - enough to tell someone at HQ about the incident). Whilst there might not any actual evidence Shepard would still be the prime suspect.
In addition, a fragment of his warning to the colonists might have been picked up by other vessels in the area. Or someone might have spotted the Normandy using a relay to travel to the system before it disappeared.

Thats a hell of a lot of 'mights' and 'may haves'.  To quote Hackett evidence against Shep is sketchy at best.

[Yeti13]

If humans are mass murdering alines then the other species arent going to look to kindly on that. The batarians might just be hostile but that might push it to a real war

[Gabey5]

shepard has some s'plaining to do