237 réponses à ce sujet

[corporal doody]

Everywhere Shep shows up...people mysteriously die....violently...and stuff accidently gets blown up...gloriously. must be coincidence....no one wants to acknowledge Shep is back...too many questions....


300k batarians....many civilians? near bases? i dunno man. sounds like some shady living shield type stuff the batarians were playing....propaganda....for both sides!! Shep just got stuck in the middle.

Modifié par corporal doody, 22 mai 2011 - 11:23 .

[Moiaussi]

Acually, esp in ME1 where Shepard goes, killing often stops.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's hard to kill when Shepard's killed you.

[Vengeful Nature]

[quote]008Zulu wrote...

Don't blame me because Bioware subscribes to the "Planet of Hats" theory. [/quote]



I don't. But I don't think they do subscribe to that theory. We see a massive variety in all the species we have regular contact with, it's just that the only batarians we have regular contact with happen to be hardened criminals for the most part. Places like Omega aren't the sort of place you want to get your sample from.

[quote] The Batarian reports you hear about ingame in the background, state that slavery is part of their culture. It has been historically proven that when people have slaves, they think it gives them free reign to treat them however they want. Which they do, brutally.

When you start "thinking" for an entire culture, you risk projecting your own issues on to them. [/quote]

We hear a quote from a representative of the Hegemony when he tries to justify the practice. He doesn't speak for all batarians.

[quote] According to Balak (ME1 Bringing down the Sky), he said that system should have been theirs (the Batarians), this indicates that they had never been there. By his logic, the entire galaxy belongs to the Batarians. The Council declined because the Batarians aren't a Council race (Council forbids slavery) and therefore couldn't provide assistance or intervention in a fight that they (the Batarians) started against a Council race. [/quote]

I don't think that this indicates whether they'd been there or not. It's a pretty vague comment and can mean any number of things. If anything, it indicates that the Verge was theirs, but was taken away in favour of the Alliance.

[quote] As for the Council giving the go ahead, the entire Terminus is one big lawless zone. No central goverment or authority. If there is a vacant system, it is up for grabs. The Alliance made their claim and the Batarians thought it would be an easy target for slaves. If the Turians, Asari, Salarians or Alliance want to sweep through half a dozen systems and wipe out all the pirates and mercs in order to set up new colonies, they are allowed to. [/quote]

True, but that's not to say that there aren't governments there. Nations do exist in the Terminus systems, one of which being the Hegemony itself, another being Anhur, where the anti-slavery faction are said to be in power, which implies some sort of law and order. The Terminus Systems is an area of extreme instability, think modern sub-Saharan Africa except probably worse. The difference is that the Council doesn't want to poke too hard, at least obviously, in case the entire region unites against a common enemy, and in that case, the Council seems to think it would be hard going. Probably not 50/50, but not a pushover either.

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

Do we have any evidence that it was ever formally
promised to the Batarians? Your link is to the timeline and doesn't even
show it being promised to the Alliance. The Batarians protested
Alliance colonization in the region but there is nothing in what you
linked that says anything about the region being granted to either. Why
is 'both colonize at your own pace, may the best empire win' necessarily
bad policy? [/quote]

Yeah, that link didn't explain as much as I remember it explaining. Maybe I read it somewhere else. Anyway.

It was clearly under development by the batarians before the Alliance was allowed to start developing it by the Council. Camala, a batarian colony in the Verge, has a population of over 1 million people and several major cities. This is some heavy development.

[quote] It was claimed
exclusively by the Hegemony but the Alliance never actually ordered the
Batarians out. The Alliance never protested or threatened Batarian
worlds in the region until after the Skyllian Blitz, and even then they
hit Torfan, which was a Batarian backed pirate stronghold rather than a
formal Batarian colony.

"Just not officially" means 'it wasn't, really.' Claiming a region and having your claim recognized are vastly different things. [/quote]

True. But what does that tell you? If the Alliance felt it was Alliance territory, they woud have made steps to ensure that it was maintained as such. This indicates that the Alliance are the ones moving in, and the batarians are the ones who were already there.

And your right, it wasn't official. But until the Alliance starting moving in, why would it need to be officially a zone of batarian interest? That motion was only made after the Alliance began colonising the place, in attempt to stop "aggressive" (quoted because this is stated in-game) Alliance expansion.

[quote] Which
really begs the question as to how the Alliance had any chance at all
in the First Contact war. I don't care how new or innovative Alliance
tactics were. 10 to 1 is still 10 to 1. The writers really don't seem to
have a sense of scale sometimes.

The US Navy has more ships than that and only has Earth's oceans to patrol.

You
are completely right regarding the codex entry, but the number is
innanely small given the way Alliance military strength is usually
portrayed in game. [/quote]

The full force of the turian fleets were never bought to bear against the Alliance. The most that the Alliance fought was one or two patrols. Shanxi's liberation was done by the entire Alliance 5th Fleet. Even if the turians are more advanced, those aren't good odds.

True, the US Navy has more ships. But then it's been sailing for, what, 250 years? The Alliance Navy has been around for only about 30 years. Plus, it's cheaper to make sea-going ships. You don't have to put antimatter and element zero in an ocean frigate.

And I agree, the writers seem to be at cross-purposes about the the nature of the Alliance's new position of strength. Hell, the other species still vastly outnumber the Alliance in terms of naval strength. I think it's gratitude and a recognition of human sacrifice, and a dash of having and entire Alliance fleet sitting pretty right outside the Citadel. It obviously can't last.

[quote] The
Batarians don't even have sufficient fleet strength to be willing to
even attempt challenging the Alliance. They went to the Council first
rather than putting ships over worlds themselves and in the Skyllian
Blitz, the naval prescence was laugable. It was only a tough fight on
the ground. In space it was very one sided.

Given the fact that
Alliance naval strength is inexplicably low, the Batarians must have a
really pathetic navy to not be able to stand up for themselves. [/quote]

It's less Alliance strength in and of itself, and more that the Alliance is under Citadel protection. Which means the batarians would have to go toe-to-toe with the rest if Citadel Space. The Hegemony could have double the amout of ships that the Alliance has, and they could be twice as advanced, those still aren't good odds. Maybe they succeed in decimating the Alliance Navy, but what good is that when their navy is gone too and they're suddently a protectorate of the Hierarchy. And I don't think it matters how popular the Alliance is within Citadel Space, the Council is still required to come to its aid in the case of a war.

[quote] This
is true and it is a pitty that we never really see the other side. The
Batarians we deal with on Omega can be dealt with reasonably, and even
show respect when respect is given to them. Batarians work with human
pirates all the time with no racial incidents, so the issues are pretty
much purely territorial and it is a pity that diplomatic solutions were
not found.

All this is somewhat academic though in that Shepard wasn't trying to kill Batarians. [/quote]

I agree.

[quote]OmegaXI wrote...

It says that the batarians were the
backers of the slavers and those who wanted slaves in the Anhur
Rebellion, the didn't fight to end  it ,they supported slavery. The
humans were the ones fighting to end slavery there.
[/quote]

Anhur is a planet of just under 210 million people. All you telling me that every single batarian, every last soul in that planet, supported the pro-slavery faction? Even the batarian slaves that want to be free?

Besides, look at the description more carefully:

[quote] A civil war erupted as one side sought to end slavery throughout the
system and the other, primarily a batarian faction called the Na'hesit,
sought to keep the slaves they had. [/quote]

All that means is the majority of Na'hesit were batarian. It doesn't mean that no batarians fought on the side of the abolitionists.

[eye basher]

Ah it was the 2nd fleet who liberated shanxi.

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I don't think that this indicates whether they'd been there or not. It's a pretty vague comment and can mean any number of things. If anything, it indicates that the Verge was theirs, but was taken away in favour of the Alliance.

Actually I think the Turians surveyed the region first, hence finding Turian corpses on various remote worlds. Does that mean the Batarians were really poaching on the Turians? Getting there first does not actually establish claim. The norse got to the east coast of North America first. Various explorers got to various portions of North America, South America and Africa first. Mapping something and drawing a line on a map is a very weak establishment of claim. The US doesn't own the moon simply because they landed on it first.

True, but that's not to say that there aren't governments there. Nations do exist in the Terminus systems, one of which being the Hegemony itself, another being Anhur, where the anti-slavery faction are said to be in power, which implies some sort of law and order. The Terminus Systems is an area of extreme instability, think modern sub-Saharan Africa except probably worse. The difference is that the Council doesn't want to poke too hard, at least obviously, in case the entire region unites against a common enemy, and in that case, the Council seems to think it would be hard going. Probably not 50/50, but not a pushover either.

The closest thing to a formal nation-state is Omega. Other than that there are various warlords, but it is a very balkanized region. There is no actual evidence other than the Blitz that the region would unite, and the Blitz was easily defeated. The Council anti-war paranoia does not equate to proof.

Yeah, that link didn't explain as much as I remember it explaining. Maybe I read it somewhere else. Anyway.

It was clearly under development by the batarians before the Alliance was allowed to start developing it by the Council. Camala, a batarian colony in the Verge, has a population of over 1 million people and several major cities. This is some heavy development.

The Batarians had some colonies there, but they can't have had a large prescense since they pulled out relatively quickly. If you are trying to move large scale populations, that isn't easy.

True. But what does that tell you? If the Alliance felt it was Alliance territory, they woud have made steps to ensure that it was maintained as such. This indicates that the Alliance are the ones moving in, and the batarians are the ones who were already there.

And your right, it wasn't official. But until the Alliance starting moving in, why would it need to be officially a zone of batarian interest? That motion was only made after the Alliance began colonising the place, in attempt to stop "aggressive" (quoted because this is stated in-game) Alliance expansion.

You are missing my point I think. It isn't either/or. The Alliance never said 'this is all Alliance territory.' They said 'there are unoccupied worlds here on our border and we are going to colonize them.' That is very different from saying 'we don't recognize the sovereignty of the worlds you have colonized.'

The full force of the turian fleets were never bought to bear against the Alliance. The most that the Alliance fought was one or two patrols. Shanxi's liberation was done by the entire Alliance 5th Fleet. Even if the turians are more advanced, those aren't good odds.

True, the US Navy has more ships. But then it's been sailing for, what, 250 years? The Alliance Navy has been around for only about 30 years. Plus, it's cheaper to make sea-going ships. You don't have to put antimatter and element zero in an ocean frigate.

And I agree, the writers seem to be at cross-purposes about the the nature of the Alliance's new position of strength. Hell, the other species still vastly outnumber the Alliance in terms of naval strength. I think it's gratitude and a recognition of human sacrifice, and a dash of having and entire Alliance fleet sitting pretty right outside the Citadel. It obviously can't last.

Especially since they cite the Geth as having 5000 to 10,000 ships, 2 to 5 times as many as the Turians. And although you don't need to put antimatter or eezo into surface ships, they do burn a lot of oil.

As for the first contact war, I was referring to the Turians feeling the need to ask the Council for aid. Why would they need Asari or Salarian assistance with a 10 to 1 advantage?

It's less Alliance strength in and of itself, and more that the Alliance is under Citadel protection. Which means the batarians would have to go toe-to-toe with the rest if Citadel Space. The Hegemony could have double the amout of ships that the Alliance has, and they could be twice as advanced, those still aren't good odds. Maybe they succeed in decimating the Alliance Navy, but what good is that when their navy is gone too and they're suddently a protectorate of the Hierarchy. And I don't think it matters how popular the Alliance is within Citadel Space, the Council is still required to come to its aid in the case of a war.

Ask the Quarians how much 'Citadel protection' they got. For that matter, ask the Alliance. There is no 'Citadel protection' for associate races. Associate just means an embassy, nothing more. The Council didn't even react to Krogan agression until they hit an Asari world.

This concept is one of the most misunderstood in ME. People keep reading promises and obligations into 'associate member' status that simply are not there.

Anhur is a planet of just under 210 million people. All you telling me that every single batarian, every last soul in that planet, supported the pro-slavery faction? Even the batarian slaves that want to be free?

How about the residents of Dresden? All pro Hitler? Were all the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki pro war? Civilians do on occasion take punishment for the decisions of their governments, whether they deserve it or not. Collateral damage is to be avoided where possible, but not to the extent of losing a war because you don't want to hurt anyone.

Again, though, academic.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 23 mai 2011 - 01:16 .

[008Zulu]

Mesina2 wrote...
What datapad?

If memory serves, its the datapad in the alcove to the right of the first door when you arrive on the asteroid station.

Mesina2 wrote...
Considering that Batarians are there since 200 BCE( Council made in 500 BCE) and no other species started to take those worlds, I'm sure that those worlds were left for them.

And why they asked for assistance? Well they couldn't just colonize those colonies their forces are too tin because they protect their territory from pirates and keep order.
And going to war with Alliance is not a question since they would most likely have Council support.

And look at Alliance, many colonies left Alliance Space and many more colonies are exposed to pirate attacks.

If the Batarians made some physical claim, such as planting their flag, then they would be able to claim ownership. Space exploration is like the gold rush, he who stakes their claim owns that bit of land.

Most of the pirate bands out there are made up primarily of Batarians, no need to defend themselves from themselves. Alliance wouldn't need the Council fleets to fight the Batarians, Alliance had more than enough ships to win any engagment.

Exposed yes, but the Alliance outreach program is seeing some of these colonies equpied with defensive measures.

Mesina2 wrote...
Those were random Batarian, Human and probably Turian pirates, not real Batarian military.

None of the codex entries, inter party banter or official sources make any mention of species other than Batarians.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 22 mai 2011 - 10:40 .

[008Zulu]

Vengeful Nature wrote...
I don't. But I don't think they do subscribe to that theory. We see a massive variety in all the species we have regular contact with, it's just that the only batarians we have regular contact with happen to be hardened criminals for the most part. Places like Omega aren't the sort of place you want to get your sample from.

There may be Batarian poets or soap stars, but all we can go on is what is presented in the game. If Bioware wanted to, they could have included a few extra paragraphs in the codex entries about how there are several resistance groups inside the Batarian government seeking to overthrow the existing powers. Anything really to show they all aren't wearing the same "hat".

Vengeful Nature wrote...
We hear a quote from a representative of the Hegemony when he tries to justify the practice. He doesn't speak for all batarians.

A representative, by definition, speaks for a group of people. The Hegemony is the offical governemnt of the Batarians. While no government is a true repesentation of all the people, those that get the majority in an election or have the most allies for a coup, get to say what's what.

Vengeful Nature wrote...
I don't think that this indicates whether they'd been there or not. It's a pretty vague comment and can mean any number of things. If anything, it indicates that the Verge was theirs, but was taken away in favour of the Alliance.

If the Batarians had a beacon or flag on the planet claiming it was theirs, then yes it was theirs by right. Since there wasn't, nor has anything been said to indicate it, then simply saying "We saw it first" is not a legitimate means of staking a claim.

Vengeful Nature wrote...
True, but that's not to say that there aren't governments there. Nations do exist in the Terminus systems, one of which being the Hegemony itself, another being Anhur, where the anti-slavery faction are said to be in power, which implies some sort of law and order. The Terminus Systems is an area of extreme instability, think modern sub-Saharan Africa except probably worse. The difference is that the Council doesn't want to poke too hard, at least obviously, in case the entire region unites against a common enemy, and in that case, the Council seems to think it would be hard going. Probably not 50/50, but not a pushover either.

The Council's official status is that, yes. But individual species can go in and colonize if they want to. The Council just hands them the boilerplate disclaimer that it is outside their jurisdiction and would be unable to provide any assistance should pirates come raiding. I think as long as any action doesn't start a galactic war, they are content to let whatever happens, happen.

[Moiaussi]

008Zulu wrote...

There may be Batarian poets or soap stars, but all we can go on is what is presented in the game. If Bioware wanted to, they could have included a few extra paragraphs in the codex entries about how there are several resistance groups inside the Batarian government seeking to overthrow the existing powers. Anything really to show they all aren't wearing the same "hat".

The Batarians on Omega are some of the few people that Shepard interacts with that don't try to shoot him on sight. There is no indication they are slavers or criminals of any sort. When Shepard helps them or deals with them honourably, they show the same consideration back.

Pre-Legion, the Geth were portrayed similarly to the Batarians, as all wearing an organic-hater hat, but we now know they are more complex than that. The rest of your post I agree with.

[LeVaughnX]

To be blunt - if the Council / Alliance aren't willing to put the Batarians on Trial (or any other Slaver Species) and basically go on a rampage jailing and executing the law breakers; then Shepard should be fine.

Sure Shepard is going to have to..Wait..I'm a Spectre...I can do whatever the hell I want according to the lore...****** on the Council!

[Heimdall]

As noted by Saren in the first novel, there is a difference between a Spectre's legal right to use any means necessary to ensure galactic stability and the means a Spectre can actually use to ensure galactic stability.

The Council nor the Alliance can just allow Shepard to walk around free after blowing up an entire system for no apparent reason that they believe. The Alliance especially can't since Shepard was performing a mission for them at the time.

[008Zulu]

Moiaussi wrote...
The Batarians on Omega are some of the few people that Shepard interacts with that don't try to shoot him on sight. There is no indication they are slavers or criminals of any sort. When Shepard helps them or deals with them honourably, they show the same consideration back.

Pre-Legion, the Geth were portrayed similarly to the Batarians, as all wearing an organic-hater hat, but we now know they are more complex than that. The rest of your post I agree with.

Omega is the unoffical crime capital of the galaxy. If your there, you probably have less than honourable intentions. The Batarians there may have just assumed that he too was there for nefarious reasons and let him be.

Perhaps in ME3 the Batarians will get a little of that same development as the Geth.

[InvincibleHero]

008Zulu wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
The Batarians on Omega are some of the few people that Shepard interacts with that don't try to shoot him on sight. There is no indication they are slavers or criminals of any sort. When Shepard helps them or deals with them honourably, they show the same consideration back.

Pre-Legion, the Geth were portrayed similarly to the Batarians, as all wearing an organic-hater hat, but we now know they are more complex than that. The rest of your post I agree with.

Omega is the unoffical crime capital of the galaxy. If your there, you probably have less than honourable intentions. The Batarians there may have just assumed that he too was there for nefarious reasons and let him be.

Perhaps in ME3 the Batarians will get a little of that same development as the Geth.

Anto was just doing his job as a guard for Aria. He did not seem a typecast batarian. The merc seems likewise surprised to see an honroable human. So humanity has as much bad press as the batarians if not more. So that must mean every human is evil right? Nope.

[008Zulu]

InvincibleHero wrote...
Anto was just doing his job as a guard for Aria. He did not seem a typecast batarian. The merc seems likewise surprised to see an honroable human. So humanity has as much bad press as the batarians if not more. So that must mean every human is evil right? Nope.

Or surprise to meet an honourable person on Omega.

[CroGamer002]

008Zulu wrote...

If memory serves, its the datapad in the alcove to the right of the first door when you arrive on the asteroid station.

Didn't happen.

If the Batarians made some physical claim, such as planting their flag, then they would be able to claim ownership. Space exploration is like the gold rush, he who stakes their claim owns that bit of land.

And yet no other species ever tried to do that and respected Batarian claims for over 2000 years.

It's still Alliance to blame for being greedy and decided to rush it.

Most of the pirate bands out there are made up primarily of Batarians,

Prove it.

no need to defend themselves from themselves.

Or you saying that Batarian Hierarchy is pirate country or that nobody would do criminal activity on their own species?

Alliance wouldn't need the Council fleets to fight the Batarians, Alliance had more than enough ships to win any engagment.

False.
It is very possible for Batarians to have more ships then Alliance and Alliance never had a battle with real Batarian military.

Exposed yes, but the Alliance outreach program is seeing some of these colonies equpied with defensive measures.

Well that program came little too late and we don't even know that it works 100%.

None of the codex entries, inter party banter or official sources make any mention of species other than Batarians.

Elanos Haliat lead assault on Skyllian Blitz and he's human. What makes you think that there weren't other Turian and human pirates there as well?

Modifié par Mesina2, 23 mai 2011 - 06:39 .

[CroGamer002]

008Zulu wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Anto was just doing his job as a guard for Aria. He did not seem a typecast batarian. The merc seems likewise surprised to see an honroable human. So humanity has as much bad press as the batarians if not more. So that must mean every human is evil right? Nope.

Or surprise to meet an honourable person on Omega.

He literally says: "Human nobility? I didn't even know that thing existed."

[Seboist]

There are some positive examples of Batarians in ME like that one in Garrus' former squad and the Omega shopkeeper who's trying to make an honest living.

The Vorcha have it far worse than the Batarians when it comes to negative portrayals.

[Nashiktal]

What we are seeing with the Batarians is a classic culture clash. It would seem certain fundemental elements of their culture is directly at odds with key aspects of the citadel (and by extension our) culture.

Slavery for example. If you were born and raised within the Batarian hierarchy you would find nothing wrong or even strange about slavery or how it is handled as long as you don't experience some sort of cultural redirection as the result of extraneous circumstances. (Like say contact with an alternate culture early on in life)

With the Batarian way of life at such odds with the other races, I am actually surprised the Batarians weren't kicked out sooner. For them to be able to stay a significant player within council space for so long they must have some sort of power they are able to exercise(Signs seem to point to the sheer size of the terminous factions) to have been able to keep the other council members wary enough not to fight them directly.

In fact with the council encouraging humanity to expand in Batarian promised space, it seems that humanities origional purpose in the galactic community was to be a buffer against the Batarian state.

It must have been a surprise to see that humanity not only survived this role, but excelled in it.

[Moiaussi]

Mesina2 wrote...

And yet no other species ever tried to do that and respected Batarian claims for over 2000 years.

It's still Alliance to blame for being greedy and decided to rush it.

You have yet to cite a source for the date of the Batarian claim to the region. Your story is either that the Batarians claimed the region then the Turians invaded it to survey it for their own purposes (with no objections from the Batarians) or the Batarians suddenly claimed territory the Turians (and not the Batarians) had already mapped.

Neither story holds up well.

Either way you are claiming that the Batarians have some sort of claim to a significant area of space that they did essentially nothing with for 2000 years and were unwilling or unable to defend. Land claims don't work that way. They simply don't. Based on your logic, the Alliance could claim all currently unexplored space and since noone else has done so yet, they would have a legitimate claim to it.

Or you saying that Batarian Hierarchy is pirate country or that nobody would do criminal activity on their own species?

Pretty sure he is saying that the pirates are Batarian sponsored, and are functioning essentially as privateers.

False.
It is very possible for Batarians to have more ships then Alliance and Alliance never had a battle with real Batarian military.

If that is true, why didn't the Batarian Navy even try to enforce their claim? Even if they showed up and tried to bluff it would have been more than they did.

You are right though about the region (and the pirates) being mixed race, and Batarians live just fine alongside other races on Omega.

[CroGamer002]

Moiaussi wrote...

You have yet to cite a source for the date of the Batarian claim to the region.

Well nobody knows but I'm pretty certain many claims happen very long time ago.

Your story is either that the Batarians claimed the region then the Turians invaded it to survey it for their own purposes (with no objections from the Batarians) or the Batarians suddenly claimed territory the Turians (and not the Batarians) had already mapped.

Neither story holds up well.

Where did you even get that idea?

Either way you are claiming that the Batarians have some sort of claim to a significant area of space that they did essentially nothing with for 2000 years and were unwilling or unable to defend. Land claims don't work that way. They simply don't. Based on your logic, the Alliance could claim all currently unexplored space and since noone else has done so yet, they would have a legitimate claim to it.

In 2000 years they very likely colonized a lot of claimed worlds, just a lot of them left too in that time period. Also it's not cheap to maintain Orwellian society and colonize worlds.

Pretty sure he is saying that the pirates are Batarian sponsored, and are functioning essentially as privateers.

And there is still no mention that Batarian Hierarchy had anything with it.

If that is true, why didn't the Batarian Navy even try to enforce their claim? Even if they showed up and tried to bluff it would have been more than they did.

Like I said, they are very strict with keeping their territory clean of criminals and most of their fleet is doing that job against pirates so they couldn't do it without exposing their territory.

[Bright_Ops]

You know, I 've never understood why Shepard couldn't twist the truth a little in order to maintain and reach his goals.

For example, instead of claiming that he blew up the Mass Relay to stop the Reapers, he could have very easily claimed that Dr. Amanda Kenson, having tracked down a relic that proved that Sovereign was not a geth creation, was driven insane by it.

Unaware of her mental state, Shepard was asked to ensure her release after she was arrested for 'false charges'. Shortly after breaking her out, she showed her true colors and turned on Shepard, drugging him while her crew made the final arrangements for her giant rock.

Waking up early, he did everything in his power to try and warn the batarian's of the coming threat. When that failed due to Amanda jamming the signal, he tried to stop the rock itself. Unable to stop it, he was helpless to prevent the deaths of innocent civilains.

Is it really that hard to put the threat of Reapers aside long enough to ensure that you are not going to be shot for warcrimes?

[Nashiktal]

Bright_Ops wrote...

You know, I 've never understood why Shepard couldn't twist the truth a little in order to maintain and reach his goals.

For example, instead of claiming that he blew up the Mass Relay to stop the Reapers, he could have very easily claimed that Dr. Amanda Kenson, having tracked down a relic that proved that Sovereign was not a geth creation, was driven insane by it.

Unaware of her mental state, Shepard was asked to ensure her release after she was arrested for 'false charges'. Shortly after breaking her out, she showed her true colors and turned on Shepard, drugging him while her crew made the final arrangements for her giant rock.

Waking up early, he did everything in his power to try and warn the batarian's of the coming threat. When that failed due to Amanda jamming the signal, he tried to stop the rock itself. Unable to stop it, he was helpless to prevent the deaths of innocent civilains.

Is it really that hard to put the threat of Reapers aside long enough to ensure that you are not going to be shot for warcrimes?

Even in that scenerio shep would probably still be the scapegoat. Someone has to take the fall.

[Vengeful Nature]

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually I think the Turians surveyed the region first, hence finding Turian corpses on various remote worlds. Does that mean the Batarians were really poaching on the Turians? Getting there first does not actually establish claim. The norse got to the east coast of North America first. Various explorers got to various portions of North America, South America and Africa first. Mapping something and drawing a line on a map is a very weak establishment of claim. The US doesn't own the moon simply because they landed on it first.

I don't know if those turian bodies count, but you may disagree. This is a case of gameplay and story segregation. The game wanted to give us collection quests, so they scattered various alien bodies around the area and used it to tell us about moments in those species' history. Anyway, it's clearly not turian territory, because we know exactly what the turian Hierarchy is like. If they wanted the area, they would have have it and no question.

In the case of the explorers you mention, the batarians were already developing the area. We know this from Camala. Having a colony of a million people is a very strong claim. The batarians weren't just skitting around looking at planets or putting a man on a planet and then lea. They were actively developing the area.

The closest thing to a formal nation-state is Omega. Other than that there are various warlords, but it is a very balkanized region. There is no actual evidence other than the Blitz that the region would unite, and the Blitz was easily defeated. The Council anti-war paranoia does not equate to proof.

No, there are nations in the Terminus Systems. Anhur is one, the Hegemony is another. Omega is another example, as you say. Then there are stable colonies of turians, salarians, volus, hanar and, of course, humans (well, stable before the Collectors gobbled them up, anyway).

The Batarians had some colonies there, but they can't have had a large prescense since they pulled out relatively quickly. If you are trying to move large scale populations, that isn't easy.

They didn't pull out. Camala and Bahak are still populated batarian colonies. Well, in the case of Bahak, not so much anymore.

You are missing my point I think. It isn't either/or. The Alliance never said 'this is all Alliance territory.' They said 'there are unoccupied worlds here on our border and we are going to colonize them.' That is very different from saying 'we don't recognize the sovereignty of the worlds you have colonized.'

I agree. I'm not saying the Alliance claimed the entire region. The the batarians did, though. Is this an example of batarian aggression? Probably, yes. The batarians didn't want to share. But all the Council had to do was tell the Alliance to back off. They are the new kids on the block, they don't get to have all the toys. The batarians were a mature, highly developed member of the interstellar community, and had been for around two millennia. The Alliance was already heavily involved in the Attican Traverse, anyway. So both parties could have had what they wanted. But Council ineptitude and/or plotting allowed both governments to have at it.

Especially since they cite the Geth as having 5000 to 10,000 ships, 2 to 5 times as many as the Turians. And although you don't need to put antimatter or eezo into surface ships, they do burn a lot of oil.

As for the first contact war, I was referring to the Turians feeling the need to ask the Council for aid. Why would they need Asari or Salarian assistance with a 10 to 1 advantage?

They didn't ask for aid. Where did you hear that? They mobilised their own fleets for full scale war, and this alerted the Council to what was happening.

Ask the Quarians how much 'Citadel protection' they got. For that matter, ask the Alliance. There is no 'Citadel protection' for associate races. Associate just means an embassy, nothing more. The Council didn't even react to Krogan agression until they hit an Asari world.

This concept is one of the most misunderstood in ME. People keep reading promises and obligations into 'associate member' status that simply are not there.

No, if you are a member of Citadel Space, of any rank, you are entitled to Citadel protection. One of the first coversations in the first game tells us this. It's a system of collective security.

In the case of the quarians, there an argument to be had for the fact that they tried to perform genocide on their newly sentient slaves. The Council was well within it's rights to say "this is a mess you got yourselves in, you tidy it up. And by the way, your not one of us any more because you just tried to annihilate an entire species. Byebye!"

However, you are partially right. The Council isn't good at keeping its promises. It's the threat of full reprisal, though, that keeps the batarians in check.

How about the residents of Dresden? All pro Hitler? Were all the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki pro war? Civilians do on occasion take punishment for the decisions of their governments, whether they deserve it or not. Collateral damage is to be avoided where possible, but not to the extent of losing a war because you don't want to hurt anyone.

I agree. But what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

eye basher wrote...

Ah it was the 2nd fleet who liberated shanxi.

Oh right, my bad.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 23 mai 2011 - 10:04 .

[Brohammed]

dreman9999 wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

of course not he just killed 300,000 people, blew up a mass relay, and took out an entire galaxy sure no laws were broken murder is totally legal if you do it where no one is watching you...

It's Solar system....Not Galaxy....

It's a Star System, not Solar System. Sol is our star

[Vengeful Nature]

008Zulu wrote...

There may be Batarian poets or soap stars, but all we can go on is what is presented in the game. If Bioware wanted to, they could have included a few extra paragraphs in the codex entries about how there are several resistance groups inside the Batarian government seeking to overthrow the existing powers. Anything really to show they all aren't wearing the same "hat".

True, it's a missed opportunity. But I take the Anhur Rebellions as an example of batarian resistance groups.

A representative, by definition, speaks for a group of people. The Hegemony is the offical governemnt of the Batarians. While no government is a true repesentation of all the people, those that get the majority in an election or have the most allies for a coup, get to say what's what.

In theory, yes. but let me tell you a story. The mayor of my country's capital city has come out with some of the most bizarre, classist and racist comments I've ever heard. As Mayor of London, he also represents my country as the leader of the 2012 Olympic City. I can tell you right now, that man most certainly does not represent me or my views in any way.

So in practice, it very seldom works like that.

If the Batarians had a beacon or flag on the planet claiming it was theirs, then yes it was theirs by right. Since there wasn't, nor has anything been said to indicate it, then simply saying "We saw it first" is not a legitimate means of staking a claim.

That, plus the fact that they were already heavily involved in developing the region. Look at Camala. It has a population of 1 million batarians. I'd say that's as good a flag as any.

The Council's official status is that, yes. But individual species can go in and colonize if they want to. The Council just hands them the boilerplate disclaimer that it is outside their jurisdiction and would be unable to provide any assistance should pirates come raiding. I think as long as any action doesn't start a galactic war, they are content to let whatever happens, happen.

The Council has to mediate between all these different factions vying for control of various regions of space. In the case of the Skyllian Verge, they didn't do their job. This can be one of two things: a) they are dangerously inept or they were purposefully playing one government off against the other.

Later, when the batarians were going it on their own, pirates were coming out of their space. Now, yes, the Council can't do anything about individual pirate gangs. But it was pretty clear to the galactic community by then that the Hegemony was funding and arming these pirates. Anyway, if the Council has done it's job in the first place, this wouldn't have happened, or if it had, it would be to a much lesser degree than how things actually played out.