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[Vengeful Nature]

Mesina2 wrote...

Elanos Haliat lead assault on Skyllian Blitz and he's human. What makes you think that there weren't other Turian and human pirates there as well?

I'll just quote this from the wiki:

official Mass Effect wiki says...

Though intended to be a turian, Elanos Haliat was accidentally given a human model in the game itself. His actual species is only hinted at by his "turian-esque" name, the distinctive turian sound processing applied to his dialogue, and his referring to humanity as "Shepard's kind". This explains why despite being on a planet with an atmosphere comprised of carbon dioxide and krypton, and a surface temperature of −70 °C (-92 °F), he is not wearing a helmet when encountered outside.

Other than that, I agree with most of your points. 

I just wish you'd stop using motivationals of facepalms to insult people.

Nashiktal wrote...

What we are seeing with the Batarians is a classic culture clash. It would seem certain fundemental elements
of their culture is directly at odds with key aspects of the citadel (and by extension our) culture.

Slavery for example. If you were born and raised within the Batarian hierarchy you would find nothing wrong or even strange about slavery or how it is handled as long as you don't experience some sort of cultural redirection as the result of extraneous circumstances. (Like say contact with an alternate culture early on in life)

With the Batarian way of life at such odds with the other races, I am actually surprised the Batarians weren't
kicked out sooner. For them to be able to stay a significant player within council space for so long they must have some sort of power they are able to exercise(Signs seem to point to the sheer size of the terminous factions) to have been able to keep the other council members wary enough not to fight them directly.

In fact with the council encouraging humanity to expand in Batarian promised space, it seems that humanities origional purpose in the galactic community was to be a buffer against the Batarian state.

It must have been a surprise to see that humanity not only survived this role, but excelled in it.

This is why I believe that the Council was purposefully playing the Hegemony off against the Alliance in the Skyllian Verge.

The Alliance comes along and starts aggressive colonisation of the Verge, so the Council think to themselves, "we'll use this to take the batarians down a notch or two, since they so adamantly refuse to abandon practices which we don't like."

Disclaimer: this is purely me speculating. We can't know this from anything in the games. It's just a cool little plot point if it's true, like what the Culture does to the Affront in Iain M. Bank's novel, Excession.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 23 mai 2011 - 10:16 .

[CroGamer002]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Elanos Haliat lead assault on Skyllian Blitz and he's human. What makes you think that there weren't other Turian and human pirates there as well?

I'll just quote this from the wiki:

official Mass Effect wiki says...

Though intended to be a turian, Elanos Haliat was accidentally given a human model in the game itself. His actual species is only hinted at by his "turian-esque" name, the distinctive turian sound processing applied to his dialogue, and his referring to humanity as "Shepard's kind". This explains why despite being on a planet with an atmosphere comprised of carbon dioxide and krypton, and a surface temperature of −70 °C (-92 °F), he is not wearing a helmet when encountered outside.

Heh, didn't know that.

But than again my probably Turian is no longer just probably.

Other than that, I agree with most of your points. 

I just wish you'd stop using motivationals of facepalms to insult people.

What?

How was I insulting anyone with that?

I found that argument really freaking dumb, but not person itself. Big difference. I'm pretty sure I was clear with that one.

[008Zulu]

Mesina2 wrote...
Didn't happen.

So I can assume you skipped all the datapads then? Its in one of them.

Mesina2 wrote...
And yet no other species ever tried to do that and respected Batarian claims for over 2000 years.

It's still Alliance to blame for being greedy and decided to rush it.

If given the chance, the Batarians would claim dominion over the entire galaxy. "Greed" implies that the Alliance knew the Batarians owned that world (if they did, proove it), they didn't. And yeah, its hard to respect slavers.

Mesina2 wrote...
Prove it.

The mission to save either the space port or the city from a missle strike. Bararian leader and mostly batarian members of the gang. Bringing down the sky, Batarian leader of a Batarian gang. Blue Suns, Vido uses mostly Batarians for the rank and file.

Mesina2 wrote...
Or you saying that Batarian Hierarchy is pirate country or that nobody would do criminal activity on their own species?

They respect each others rights, just no one elses (re:slavery)

Mesina2 wrote...
False.
It is very possible for Batarians to have more ships then Alliance and Alliance never had a battle with real Batarian military.

First you say False, a definitive answer. Then you say possible. You just argued against your own statement. If the Batarians had a fleet to speak of, why didn't they employ it? I mean, invading another's territory is an act of war.

Mesina2 wrote...
Well that program came little too late and we don't even know that it works 100%.

It was TIMs fault that the program never got the chance to work. He set the Collectors on them just to satisfy his own curiosity.

Mesina2 wrote...
Elanos Haliat lead assault on Skyllian Blitz and he's human. What makes you think that there weren't other Turian and human pirates there as well?

He masterminded it, Batarians were the ground forces. Again I refer you to the codex entries, no mention of Turians there. I'd also like to see you justify Mindoir.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vengeful Nature wrote...


The Council has to mediate between all these different factions vying for control of various regions of space. In the case of the Skyllian Verge, they didn't do their job. This can be one of two things: a) they are dangerously inept or they were purposefully playing one government off against the other.

Not just against those two: in various points in ME1, you can hear some implications that the Council (specifically the Salarians and Asari) are trying to angle the Alliance to be a counterbalance to the Turians.

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I don't know if those turian bodies count, but you may disagree. This is a case of gameplay and story segregation. The game wanted to give us collection quests, so they scattered various alien bodies around the area and used it to tell us about moments in those species' history. Anyway, it's clearly not turian territory, because we know exactly what the turian Hierarchy is like. If they wanted the area, they would have have it and no question.

In the case of the explorers you mention, the batarians were already developing the area. We know this from Camala. Having a colony of a million people is a very strong claim. The batarians weren't just skitting around looking at planets or putting a man on a planet and then lea. They were actively developing the area.

They could have been Batarian corpses and we still would have had a collection quest. You seem to think an area has to be 'someone's territory.' Who owns the 80ish percent of the galaxy we don't currently know about?

"A colony of a million people' doesn't equate to a claim of anything other than that one world. Otherwise, Illium 'owns' the Terminus systems.

No, there are nations in the Terminus Systems. Anhur is one, the Hegemony is another. Omega is another example, as you say. Then there are stable colonies of turians, salarians, volus, hanar and, of course, humans (well, stable before the Collectors gobbled them up, anyway).

The point is that it is not uniformly owned. Make up your mind. Are Omega and Anhur part of the Hegemony or not?

They didn't pull out. Camala and Bahak are still populated batarian colonies. Well, in the case of Bahak, not so much anymore.

They pulled out of the Skyllian Verge, which was the territory under dispute when the Batarians pulled their embassy.

I agree. I'm not saying the Alliance claimed the entire region. The the batarians did, though. Is this an example of batarian aggression? Probably, yes. The batarians didn't want to share. But all the Council had to do was tell the Alliance to back off. They are the new kids on the block, they don't get to have all the toys. The batarians were a mature, highly developed member of the interstellar community, and had been for around two millennia. The Alliance was already heavily involved in the Attican Traverse, anyway. So both parties could have had what they wanted. But Council ineptitude and/or plotting allowed both governments to have at it.

It is arguably an act of agression to claim territory that you have no immediate need for and have no willingness to defend or even patrol. Again, being the first to the moon doesn't equate to ownership of the moon, and there is no evidence that the Batarians were even the first race into the Verge.

They didn't ask for aid. Where did you hear that? They mobilised their own fleets for full scale war, and this alerted the Council to what was happening.

Sigh, while it is possible I am misremembering, I swear the codex and/or game originally said that the Turians went to the Council after the Alliance won against them at Shanxi. I don't remember fleet sizes being given in ME1 either though, so I do wonder if this is revisionism or if I am just misremembering.

If I have a chance later I'll pop ME1 in and see if I can find a quote. The Wiki doesn't seem to separate out the ME1 codex.

No, if you are a member of Citadel Space, of any rank, you are entitled to Citadel protection. One of the first coversations in the first game tells us this. It's a system of collective security.

In the case of the quarians, there an argument to be had for the fact that they tried to perform genocide on their newly sentient slaves. The Council was well within it's rights to say "this is a mess you got yourselves in, you tidy it up. And by the way, your not one of us any more because you just tried to annihilate an entire species. Byebye!"

However, you are partially right. The Council isn't good at keeping its promises. It's the threat of full reprisal, though, that keeps the batarians in check.

Can you provide a quote? Who said this and in what context?

I agree. But what does this have to do with what we're talking about?

I was responding to the suggestion that attacking Batarian worlds is wrong simply because they are not all slavers or all hostile.

[CroGamer002]

008Zulu wrote...

So I can assume you skipped all the datapads then? Its in one of them.

Codex entries≠Datapad

If given the chance, the Batarians would claim dominion over the entire galaxy. "Greed" implies that the Alliance knew the Batarians owned that world (if they did, proove it), they didn't. And yeah, its hard to respect slavers.

They claimed empty worlds so thise comparison is poor.

Als Alliance knew that this worlds were left for Batarians but they still went and get them. And reason why Council let them do it is because they don't like what political system Batarian Hierarchy uses and they underestimated humans.

The mission to save either the space port or the city from a missle strike. Bararian leader and mostly batarian members of the gang.

Those are terrorists.
Almost every race has terrorists.

Bringing down the sky, Batarian leader of a Batarian gang.

While in rest of ME1 only pirates and criminals we saw are humans, Turians and Krogans.

Blue Suns, Vido uses mostly Batarians for the rank and file.

They still have a lot humans and Turians in it.

Also Eclipse doesn't have Batarians and same thing for Blood Pack.

They respect each others rights, just no one elses (re:slavery)

And so those majority of Terminus System's.
That still doesn't give any connection to Skyllian Blitz.

First you say False, a definitive answer. Then you say possible. You just argued against your own statement. If the Batarians had a fleet to speak of, why didn't they employ it? I mean, invading another's territory is an act of war.

Batarians are there for 2000 year while Alliance 40 years and only has 200 ships. Also Batarians live in Orwellian society which demands heavy security presence, which is often military, so it's very high possibility for them to have more ships.

Though it's still just possibility since there's no real number ever released.


And no, I never said those worlds are their territory, but territory claimed by them and was respected by every other race for 2000 years. And by time many worlds were colonized but then Alliance shows up out of nowhere and starts to taking territory they claim.

And since they can't beat Alliance while they have Council support, they never go to war with them.
Until they get good excuse for Council not to help Alliance.

It was TIMs fault that the program never got the chance to work. He set the Collectors on them just to satisfy his own curiosity.

And if he didn't do that then some other colony would be attacked anyway. Which that program didn't cover. So that program still isn't good enough.

He masterminded it, Batarians were the ground forces. Again I refer you to the codex entries, no mention of Turians there. I'd also like to see you justify Mindoir.

Well considering that ME1 only had no Batarian pirates until Bring Down the Sky DLC, I wouldn't be surprised to have Turian pirates as well.
Plus how I was pointed out earlier, that guy was supposed to be a Turian at first.

And for Mindoir? Pirates. Just pirates. I don't care what species attacked that planet, those were just pirates that were not backed by any government and attacked solely for their personal gain.

For crimes on Mindoir and Elysium you can only rationally blame those individuals, not their species.

[Moiaussi]

Mesina2 wrote...

Codex entries≠Datapad

The ME1 codex also said that Sovereign was a Geth ship. In game datapad > codex.

They claimed empty worlds so thise comparison is poor.

Als Alliance knew that this worlds were left for Batarians but they still went and get them. And reason why Council let them do it is because they don't like what political system Batarian Hierarchy uses and they underestimated humans.

You have yet to provide evidence, codex or otherwise, that those worlds were 'left for Batarians.' All that has been done in this thread is cite when first contact between the Council races and Batarians happened, which is not the same as when any claim was made over that region.

Those are terrorists.
Almost every race has terrorists.

While this is true, the codex does tell us that after the Batarians pulled out of the Council, they started sponsoring criminal activities in the region.

Batarians are there for 2000 year while Alliance 40 years and only has 200 ships. Also Batarians live in Orwellian society which demands heavy security presence, which is often military, so it's very high possibility for them to have more ships.

Though it's still just possibility since there's no real number ever released.

And no, I never said those worlds are their territory, but territory claimed by them and was respected by every other race for 2000 years. And by time many worlds were colonized but then Alliance shows up out of nowhere and starts to taking territory they claim.

And since they can't beat Alliance while they have Council support, they never go to war with them.
Until they get good excuse for Council not to help Alliance.

Possible is not evidence. While it is possible that he Batarians have a huge fleet it doesn't seem probable. Why sponsor pirates when you have the fleet to defend the region yourself? And there is NO evidence of 'council support' for the Alliance. There is only evidence of a lack of council support for the Batarians. Those are not the same.

For crimes on Mindoir and Elysium you can only rationally blame those individuals, not their species.

The codex says those operations were 'Batarian backed.' State sponsored terrorism or mercenary forces are hardly unknown concepts.

[CroGamer002]

Moiaussi wrote...

The ME1 codex also said that Sovereign was a Geth ship. In game datapad > codex.

Then what datapad are you talking about then?

You have yet to provide evidence, codex or otherwise, that those worlds were 'left for Batarians.' All that has been done in this thread is cite when first contact between the Council races and Batarians happened, which is not the same as when any claim was made over that region.

Claims could have happen between 100 BCE when Batarians got embassy on Citadel and First Contact War.

I'm pretty sure Batarians were colonizing that region for centuries but a lot of it still left.

While this is true, the codex does tell us that after the Batarians pulled out of the Council, they started sponsoring criminal activities in the region.

True, but no evidence nor even hints for their involvement for Mindoir and Elysium.

Possible is not evidence.

When did I said it's evidence or fact?
It's just very logical assumption.

While it is possible that he Batarians have a huge fleet it doesn't seem probable. Why sponsor pirates when you have the fleet to defend the region yourself?

An outright war with Council?

And there is NO evidence of 'council support' for the Alliance. There is only evidence of a lack of council support for the Batarians. Those are not the same.

Council outright told Alliance they can colonize those worlds and yet they could have done it long time ago by themself.
So Batarians very likely find out about that.

And if Batarian Hierarchy went to war with Alliance, then Council would have every reason to get rid of them without getting attack by rest of Terminus System's.

Win for the Council, but Alliance become a bit too powerful then they expected.

The codex says those operations were 'Batarian backed.' State sponsored terrorism or mercenary forces are hardly unknown concepts.

Still means nothing.

Then again some Alliance officials support Cerberus. Is Alliance evil then as well or is just act of individuals?

[Moiaussi]

Mesina2 wrote...

Then what datapad are you talking about then?

Whichever datapad 008 was talking about. I was simply reacting to your suggestion that a codex entry would trump such a piece of evidence.

Claims could have happen between 100 BCE when Batarians got embassy on Citadel and First Contact War.

I'm pretty sure Batarians were colonizing that region for centuries but a lot of it still left.

Or they might not have happened until the Alliance started colonization. The other Council races weren't on that border so there would have been no particular reason for the Batarians to mention it to anyone. Regardless, in 2000+ years I would have expected a lot more to be settled. Unless Batarians don't breed at all, the 1 million pop colony you cited would be nothing for that time period.

True, but no evidence nor even hints for their involvement for Mindoir and Elysium.

The codex says 'Batarian backed.' It also says the Batarians started a proxy war by funding criminals in the region. That is evidence. You keep dismissing it, but it is evidence.

When did I said it's evidence or fact?
It's just very logical assumption.

An outright war with Council?

Council outright told Alliance they can colonize those worlds and yet they could have done it long time ago by themself. So Batarians very likely find out about that.

And if Batarian Hierarchy went to war with Alliance, then Council would have every reason to get rid of them without getting attack by rest of Terminus System's.

Win for the Council, but Alliance become a bit too powerful then they expected.

The Council didn't step in when the Geth were attacking the Alliance. They didn't step in when the Krogan were attacking other associate members. Why would they be expected to step in now, especially if the Batarians didn't pull out? It would have been a war between two associate members. It would have been just like the Krogan rebellion without either side having the Krogan reproductive advantage.

And the Batarians didn't just not go to war. They didn't even posture or threaten war. They went straight to the Council.

Still means nothing. Then again some Alliance officials support Cerberus. Is Alliance evil then as well or is just act of individuals?

Besides the fact there are people who argue just that, when there is a Cerberus backed operation, it is said to be Cerberus backed, not 'human backed.'  The codex doesn't say 'some batarians' started a proxy war, it says 'the batarians.' 'The Batarians' means 'the recognized Batarian government,' i.e. the Hegemony.

Cerberus is never refered to as 'humans' (other than by TIM), whereas the Alliance pretty much always is. You are really stretching here to try to say otherwise.

[Yate]

I expect Shepard'll still be charged with 'vandalism'.

[Vengeful Nature]

Moiaussi wrote...

They could have been Batarian corpses and we still would have had a collection quest. You seem to think an area has to be 'someone's territory.' Who owns the 80ish percent of the galaxy we don't currently know about?

"A colony of a million people' doesn't equate to a claim of anything other than that one world. Otherwise, Illium 'owns' the Terminus systems.

Look, I'm not saying that all of the Verge belonged to just the batarians. They were developing the place first, yes, but space is really really big, so there was almost certainly enough of it for both governments. Every species and their mothers could all start developing the Verge at once, if the Council let them.

My point is that the area was under batarian development. Camala is an example of this. No, it doesn't mean the batarians owned the whole sector. But the Hegemony had in it's collective head the idea that the whole region was theirs to settle and exploit. Now, the Council are probably the ones who decide who gets what. Logically, if it was a free-for-all, everyone would be at war with everyone else because they would all be vying for the best bits. There has to be some administration going on here to keep everything running smoothly. So the Council are now telling the Alliance they can have the Verge too. The batarians aren't too happy about this, naturally. It's the principle of the matter as well as the pure hard fact of all those resources on all those worlds.

The point is that it is not uniformly owned. Make up your mind. Are Omega and Anhur part of the Hegemony or not?

I know it's not uniformly owned. This is what I've been saying this whole time. But neither is it a no-mans land where every raving lunatic and his pet cat can lay claim to a planet. It is a region, outside of Citadel jurisdiction, of high political instability. Very much like modern sub-saharan Africa. But probably worse. Warlords and dictators spring up and get torn down relatively regularly, and the area is rife with piracy and criminal activities. Think of how Somalia is a haven for piracy today. That doesn't mean that Somalia doesn't exist as a nation. The entire region is a patchwork collection of what humble students of international relations like myself call failed states. This is largely because the Council refuses to recognise any government that isn't part of it's sphere of influence, which makes said government a haven for everyone looking to be free of Citadel jurisdiction. This usually, but not always, means pirates, dodgy mercenary groups and criminals. So it's no real surprise that the region is unstable.

So yes, Anhur is a sovereign nation. I'm not so sure about Omega, however. Having thought about it, the station doesn't really match the normal description of an independant nation. It's one example of a true wild west, like you are suggesting the entire Terminus Systems is. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The point is that... well, what I said above.

They pulled out of the Skyllian Verge, which was the territory under dispute when the Batarians pulled their embassy.

Then why are both Camala and the Bahak system, both home to batarian colonies, counted as being in the Skyllian Verge?

As an aside, I realised something about Camala earlier. The colony had a population of a million people in 2165, which is when the Alliance started moving into the Verge. So it's pretty clear that the batarians were heavily involved in the Verge long before the Alliance started making waves in the place.

It is arguably an act of agression to claim territory that you have no immediate need for and have no willingness to defend or even patrol. Again, being the first to the moon doesn't equate to ownership of the moon, and there is no evidence that the Batarians were even the first race into the Verge.

But governments do that all the time. Look at all the treaties dividing up Antarctica, and similar ones in place for the seabed of the Arctic Circle. I wouldn't be surprised at all if, when humanity starts putting permanent or semi-permanent staffed habitats on the moon (whenever the hell that's gonna be), treaties are signed dividing up the moon amongst the various spacefaring nations.

Sigh, while it is possible I am misremembering, I swear the codex and/or game originally said that the Turians went to the Council after the Alliance won against them at Shanxi. I don't remember fleet sizes being given in ME1 either though, so I do wonder if this is revisionism or if I am just misremembering.

If I have a chance later I'll pop ME1 in and see if I can find a quote. The Wiki doesn't seem to separate out the ME1 codex.

I don't need the wiki, friend. It's all up here, in this head of mine.

Fleet sizes were given in both games, but I don't think they were voiced ones, so it's easier to forget them. The wiki tends to put the entries from both games in there. I get the fleet sizes from this bit here. It's got the entries from both games, one after the other.

It's a curse, you know. This encyclopedic knowledge of the Mass Effect background universe. You might think it's a gift, but it's a powerful curse. Think of all the useful information that those nuerons could carry.

Can you provide a quote? Who said this and in what context?

Shepard: "The Attican Traverse is under Citadel Protection. If the Terminus Systems attack, it's an act of war."
Nihlus: "Technically, yes. But some of the species in the Terminus might be willing to start a war over this."
- Shepard being briefed by Anderson and Nihlus on the discovery of the Beacon, before landing on Eden Prime.

And, because I'm such a nice person, I found you a direct source. Watch this, and skip forward to 3:20.

Again, it's a terrible terrible curse. :happy:

I was responding to the suggestion that attacking Batarian worlds is wrong simply because they are not all slavers or all hostile.

Oh, right. Yeah, I agree.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 23 mai 2011 - 10:53 .

[OmegaXI]

Yate wrote...

I expect Shepard'll still be charged with 'vandalism'.

Thats what humans call it when you wipe out a Batarian planet

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

Look, I'm not saying that all of the Verge belonged to just the batarians. They were developing the place first, yes, but space is really really big, so there was almost certainly enough of it for both governments. Every species and their mothers could all start developing the Verge at once, if the Council let them.

My point is that the area was under batarian development. Camala is an example of this. No, it doesn't mean the batarians owned the whole sector. But the Hegemony had in it's collective head the idea that the whole region was theirs to settle and exploit. Now, the Council are probably the ones who decide who gets what. Logically, if it was a free-for-all, everyone would be at war with everyone else because they would all be vying for the best bits. There has to be some administration going on here to keep everything running smoothly. So the Council are now telling the Alliance they can have the Verge too. The batarians aren't too happy about this, naturally. It's the principle of the matter as well as the pure hard fact of all those resources on all those worlds.

But there is no evidence that the Council did anything other than ok both races settling the region at their own pace. There is no Council edict that the Batarian colonies have to be turned over to the Alliance.

The Batarians objected to the Alliance being in the region at all. They wanted it exclusively to themselves without being willing to stand up for their claim and regardless of the Alliance needing a direction to expand.

I know it's not uniformly owned. This is what I've been saying this whole time. But neither is it a no-mans land where every raving lunatic and his pet cat can lay claim to a planet. It is a region, outside of Citadel jurisdiction, of high political instability. Very much like modern sub-saharan Africa. But probably worse. Warlords and dictators spring up and get torn down relatively regularly, and the area is rife with piracy and criminal activities. Think of how Somalia is a haven for piracy today. That doesn't mean that Somalia doesn't exist as a nation. The entire region is a patchwork collection of what humble students of international relations like myself call failed states. This is largely because the Council refuses to recognise any government that isn't part of it's sphere of influence, which makes said government a haven for everyone looking to be free of Citadel jurisdiction. This usually, but not always, means pirates, dodgy mercenary groups and criminals. So it's no real surprise that the region is unstable.

So yes, Anhur is a sovereign nation. I'm not so sure about Omega, however. Having thought about it, the station doesn't really match the normal description of an independant nation. It's one example of a true wild west, like you are suggesting the entire Terminus Systems is. Anyway, it doesn't matter. The point is that... well, what I said above.

There is no "Terminus Confederacy.' The region united temporarily for the Blitz, but we know that unity fell apart entirely after the loss.

Then why are both Camala and the Bahak system, both home to batarian colonies, counted as being in the Skyllian Verge?

As an aside, I realised something about Camala earlier. The colony had a population of a million people in 2165, which is when the Alliance started moving into the Verge. So it's pretty clear that the batarians were heavily involved in the Verge long before the Alliance started making waves in the place.

Are they? One thing that bothered me a lot in ME2 was that there didn't seem to be any coherrent boundries on the map. We are told in ME1 that noone survives crossing the veil, now in ME2 we cross over to visit Halcyon and it is treated like a non-event. For that matter, the Geth appearantly had to pass through Terminus to get anywhere, but didn't hit any colonies at all there nor did anyone in that region seem to care or even notice.

But governments do that all the time. Look at all the treaties dividing up Antarctica, and similar ones in place for the seabed of the Arctic Circle. I wouldn't be surprised at all if, when humanity starts putting permanent or semi-permanent staffed habitats on the moon (whenever the hell that's gonna be), treaties are signed dividing up the moon amongst the various spacefaring nations.

The US government, in theory a Canadian ally, declared the Northwest Passage 'international waters' just so they wouldn't have to formally ask permission to pass through. It is normally considered Canadian territory. Trust me, there are borders in the arctic. Various nations are challenging them but they exist. There are also indiginous populations up there who get government assistance, so it isn't entirely unoccupied. I thought Antarctica was considered international, but will take your word for it that that it is otherwise. You are assuming that there is no responsibility taken for the claimed territory though.

I don't need the wiki, friend. It's all up here, in this head of mine.

Fleet sizes were given in both games, but I don't think they were voiced ones, so it's easier to forget them. The wiki tends to put the entries from both games in there. I get the fleet sizes from this bit here. It's got the entries from both games, one after the other.

It's a curse, you know. This encyclopedic knowledge of the Mass Effect background universe. You might think it's a gift, but it's a powerful curse. Think of all the useful information that those nuerons could carry.

That's the thing though, I have a good memory too. I keep lamenting that if only I could remember useful things I would be doing a lot better. It has been rather a while since I last looked at the ME1 codex though. Regardless, it wouldn't be the first time the writers have had trouble with scale. Those 1mil pop worlds you cite are not very big. That is less pop than any given major Earth city.

Shepard: "The Attican Traverse is under Citadel Protection. If the Terminus Systems attack, it's an act of war." Nihlus: "Technically, yes. But some of the species in the Terminus might be willing to start a war over this."
- Shepard being briefed by Anderson and Nihlus on the discovery of the Beacon, before landing on Eden Prime.

And, because I'm such a nice person, I found you a direct source. Watch this, and skip forward to 3:20.

Again, it's a terrible terrible curse. :happy:

Technically doesn't go very far. There are no examples of any such right being followed up on, and the existance of any such right is contradicted by the codex.

Any species granted an embassy on the Citadel is considered an associate member, bound by the accords of the Citadel Conventions. Associate members may bring issues to the attention of the Council, through they have no input on the decision.

Obligating the Council to go to war on your behalf regardless of circumstance is well beyond 'may bring issues to the attention of the Council... no input on the decision.'

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

And, because I'm such a nice person, I found you a direct source. Watch this, and skip forward to 3:20.

I took a look. I would like to point out that this is some time after Torfan. The Batarians had already long ceded official claim to the region and meanwhile various Council races had trade interests in the area (eg. Noveria).

The Codex does mention that the Council do periodicly send token counter-piracy patrols of their own, but keep them scaled down to avoid provoking outright war.

[008Zulu]

Mesina2 wrote...
Codex entries≠Datapad

Codex -- Secondary -- Arrival: The Reaper's Secrets -- The Alpha Relay.

If you still can't find it, I suggest you do a copy and paste in to google.

Mesina2 wrote...
They claimed empty worlds so thise comparison is poor.

Als Alliance knew that this worlds were left for Batarians but they still went and get them. And reason why Council let them do it is because they don't like what political system Batarian Hierarchy uses and they underestimated humans.

Proove that the Alliance knew the world was left for the Batarians. Since at that time they were on relative terms with the Council, claiming a world would have required the Batarian Hegemony to officially claim the world in writing. Bureaucracy must be served. Simply saying something is so doesnt make it.

Mesina2 wrote...
Those are terrorists. Almost every race has terrorists.

While in rest of ME1 only pirates and criminals we saw are humans, Turians and Krogans.

They still have a lot humans and Turians in it.

Also Eclipse doesn't have Batarians and same thing for Blood Pack.

And so those majority of Terminus System's. That still doesn't give any connection to Skyllian Blitz.

Largely Batarians

Most of the enemies wore helmets. Humans and Batarians are virtually indistinguishable if wearing helmets.

Eclipse are largely centred around biotics and tech. Blood Pack originated on Tuchanka. Given that Asari, Salarian and Krogan don't particularly like Batarians, its easy to see why they don't want them.

The Codex entries for the Skyllian Blitz say the ground troops were Batarians, armed and paid by Batarian financiers.

Mesina2 wrote...
Batarians are there for 2000 year while Alliance 40 years and only has 200 ships. Also Batarians live in Orwellian society which demands heavy security presence, which is often military, so it's very high possibility for them to have more ships.

Though it's still just possibility since there's no real number ever released.

Where does it say the Batarians ever devloped or lived on Elysium? When the Alliance sent their ships in, why didn't the Batarians send theirs in?

Mesina2 wrote...
And no, I never said those worlds are their territory, but territory claimed by them and was respected by every other race for 2000 years. And by time many worlds were colonized but then Alliance shows up out of nowhere and starts to taking territory they claim.

And since they can't beat Alliance while they have Council support, they never go to war with them.
Until they get good excuse for Council not to help Alliance.

Despite the Council not much liking the Batarians, if they had a legal claim to the world then they would have told the Alliance.

Mesina2 wrote...
And if he didn't do that then some other colony would be attacked anyway. Which that program didn't cover. So that program still isn't good enough.

So why not send the Collectors to some other world, and give Horizon the time it needed to get the defenses up and running? Whos to say they weren't outfitting other colonies anyway?

Mesina2 wrote...
Well considering that ME1 only had no Batarian pirates until Bring Down the Sky DLC, I wouldn't be surprised to have Turian pirates as well. Plus how I was pointed out earlier, that guy was supposed to be a Turian at first.

And for Mindoir? Pirates. Just pirates. I don't care what species attacked that planet, those were just pirates that were not backed by any government and attacked solely for their personal gain.

For crimes on Mindoir and Elysium you can only rationally blame those individuals, not their species.

A lot of things in the game were "supposed to", but now due to bugs they are canon.

Mindoir was planned, financed and led by Batarians. A group that size had to have offical backing, it was retribution for the Skyllian Blitz anyway. So blowing up the Relay was payback for Elysium. A "neat" circle.

[Aumata]

Messing with a Mass Relay tends to have ramification throughout the galaxy, namely the economy. From delays and such, and them having to reconfigure, check to make sure everything is set up right, and this tends to cause delays throughout the galaxy. Shepard blew one up, this is going to screw over everyone as now people are probably scrambling to find out what happen to the relay in that center. Shepard just committed a terrorist action far bigger than what Saren did to get him kick off the Spectre program. Then counting the fact he destroyed an entire system. Shepard might as well be the big bad because that kind of decimating a small providence/state.

[Xerxes52]

But Batarians are the Always Chaotic Evil race!

[Yakko77]

Sheps actions are clearly justified given the circumstances but given only a handful of people or groups even acknowledge the Reaper threat the trial is more about perception than justice. The batarians will use the incident as an excuse to shift from raiding to full scale war and this trial, a show trial at that, seems more an act of appeasement. Generally acts of appeasement don't prevent wars, the enable them but given the circumstances I can see why the Alliance would want to do whatever it can to prevent war with the batarians with the Reapers quite literally on the horizon.

[GuardianAngel470]

Just a small comment in regards to your horribly off topic discussion Mesina and Moiaussi: Samara states that her presence aboard an asari vessel in asari space stopped a pirate attack. I find it highly unlikely that Batarians or even turians were said pirates as they wouldn't really care about a Justicar.

There is also the mission to kill Nissana Dantius's sister, the pirate/slaver who was, obviously, asari. Batarian's make up a tiny percentage of the pirate community based on in game missions in ME1 and 2. We have story missions as well as side quests that prove that Humans, Krogan, Turians, and Asari make up the vast majority of nefarious members.

We know that the system destroyed by Shepard in Arrival was a planet of mostly slaves so were most likely of various species NOT batarian (as per the description of the planet you land on).

The virtue of killing a batarian is moot in this instance, both because Moiaussi's argument is fundamentally flawed and because whoever we actually killed on that planet was most likely mostly slaves that weren't batarians at all.

[Moiaussi]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Just a small comment in regards to your horribly off topic discussion Mesina and Moiaussi: Samara states that her presence aboard an asari vessel in asari space stopped a pirate attack. I find it highly unlikely that Batarians or even turians were said pirates as they wouldn't really care about a Justicar.

There is also the mission to kill Nissana Dantius's sister, the pirate/slaver who was, obviously, asari. Batarian's make up a tiny percentage of the pirate community based on in game missions in ME1 and 2. We have story missions as well as side quests that prove that Humans, Krogan, Turians, and Asari make up the vast majority of nefarious members.

We know that the system destroyed by Shepard in Arrival was a planet of mostly slaves so were most likely of various species NOT batarian (as per the description of the planet you land on).

The virtue of killing a batarian is moot in this instance, both because Moiaussi's argument is fundamentally flawed and because whoever we actually killed on that planet was most likely mostly slaves that weren't batarians at all.

The discussion had devolved into one of the general ownership of the Skyllian Verge. Other than being off topic, I am not sure how my arguements were flawed, fundamentally or otherwise.

To be more precise, the population is about 2/3 slaves, 1/3 free Batarians. If a state of war existed, though, it would be a military target. Besides any economic importance as a mining world, per the codex:

Aratoht is rumored to have military bases on its surface and throughout its solar system, though details are heavily restricted by the Hegemony's Ministry of Information Control.

This brings it back to my earlier comments that collateral damage isn't automatically wrong in wartime.

By the way, you also dismiss the concept that some of the 'slaves' might be Batarians. It is a mix of slaves and indentured servants. Indentured servants are fixed duration contract workers, paid in necessities. Not only might some actual slaves be Batarian, but the indentured servants are likely to be mostly Batarian.

I would like to repeat that I consider this academic to the OP's topic in that Shepard's actions were justified for completely unrelated reasons.

[Vengeful Nature]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vengeful Nature wrote...

The Council has to mediate between all these different factions vying for control of various regions of space. In the case of the Skyllian Verge, they didn't do their job. This can be one of two things: a) they are dangerously inept or they were purposefully playing one government off against the other.

Not just against those two: in various points in ME1, you can hear some implications that the Council (specifically the Salarians and Asari) are trying to angle the Alliance to be a counterbalance to the Turians.

A very real possibility. It does seem to me that too much power is put into the hands of the turian military. It makes sense to have as many checks and balances as possible. The problem is that this could easily backfire. Given the turian attitude to the rest of the galaxy, I wouldn't dismiss another, more brutal war between the Alliance the Hierarchy some time in the future if this is their goal. Those turians brook no rivals.

Again, this is an indication that the Council are far more savvy than we are lead to believe. How can such an organisation ignore the Reaper threat? Or are they? Is my loaded response.

Moiaussi wrote...

But there is no evidence that the Council did anything other than ok both races settling the region at their own pace. There is no Council edict that the Batarian colonies have to be turned over to the Alliance.

The Batarians objected to the Alliance being in the region at all. They wanted it exclusively to themselves without being willing to stand up for their claim and regardless of the Alliance needing a direction to expand.

I agree, what I'm saying is that that is all it takes. Some Citadel Commission on Habitable Worlds, or whatever it's called, gives the go-ahead for both governments to start developing the region. But even "just ok'ing" them both is an act of criminal negligence or willful politics. Both the Alliance are the Hegemony are aggressive players on the interstellar stage. The Council should have, and indeed it is my argument that they did, predict that the two governments would eventually be at loggerheads over the territory.

I don't know about "needing a direction in which to expand." Space is insanely big, the Alliance could be kept busy for centuries with just the Local Cluster. The problem with this is that they want to compete with the big players and become a galactic power in their own right (I actually wouldn't have a problem with this). Which again brings us down to the Alliance being aggressive in its expansion. But my point is that the Council set this up from day one. Or such is my theory.

There is no "Terminus Confederacy.' The region united temporarily for the Blitz, but we know that unity fell apart entirely after the loss.

I know. I didn't say there was. It's a patchwork of failed states with no unifying body to direct it.

In the case of the Blitz, that wasn't really the entire Terminus Systems. The Hegemony was funneling money, arms and equipment to pirate gangs and mercenary groups, and probably training them as well, and encouraging them to cause as much disruption to Alliance operations in the Verge as possible. The Hegemony itself didn't move against them, they just payed for it to happen. Just like the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Are they? One thing that bothered me a lot in ME2 was that there didn't seem to be any coherrent boundries on the map. We are told in ME1 that noone survives crossing the veil, now in ME2 we cross over to visit Halcyon and it is treated like a non-event. For that matter, the Geth appearantly had to pass through Terminus to get anywhere, but didn't hit any colonies at all there nor did anyone in that region seem to care or even notice.

Indeed they are. The Viper Nebula, which is where Bahak is, is part of the Verge. Camala is just generally described as being in the Verge. Regardless, the wiki lists them as being part of the Verge.

I don't think clear boundaries are possible in space, given that's it's random, chaotic and 3-dimensional and things in it are drifting in all sorts of different directions. The best you can do is mark things up on a cluster-by-cluster, system-by-system or even planet-by-planet basis.

The geth were using the Armstrong Nebula in the Verge as a staging area for their forays into Alliance space. It is strange that no one in the Terminus Systems caught a wiff of them, but given the chaotic nature of the region, I'll let it slide. The geth are notoriously slippy, after all.

The US government, in theory a Canadian ally, declared the Northwest Passage 'international waters' just so they wouldn't have to formally ask permission to pass through. It is normally considered Canadian territory. Trust me, there are borders in the arctic. Various nations are challenging them but they exist. There are also indiginous populations up there who get government assistance, so it isn't entirely unoccupied. I thought Antarctica was considered international, but will take your word for it that that it is otherwise. You are assuming that there is no responsibility taken for the claimed territory though.

No I mean the seabed of the area around the North Pole. Lots of oil and gas up there, but it's very hard to get at. Give the article a read, it's pretty interesting stuff.

That's the thing though, I have a good memory too. I keep lamenting that if only I could remember useful things I would be doing a lot better. It has been rather a while since I last looked at the ME1 codex though. Regardless, it wouldn't be the first time the writers have had trouble with scale. Those 1mil pop worlds you cite are not very big. That is less pop than any given major Earth city.

It's still a heavily populated colony. It's just evidence that the Hegemony was there way before the Alliance, so their argument that the Verge was a zone of batarian interest carries a little weight, even if they weren't developing the whole region.

Technically doesn't go very far. There are no examples of any such right being followed up on, and the existance of any such right is contradicted by the codex.

Governments are built on technicalities.

Arguably, the Rachni Wars was an example of the Citadel's policy of collective security. I mean, someone's colony had to be attacked first, right? But yeah, we haven't got a clear example of this policy in action, not one that I can think of off the top of my head, anyway. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though.

Any species granted an embassy on the Citadel is considered an associate member, bound by the accords of the Citadel Conventions. Associate members may bring issues to the attention of the Council, through they have no input on the decision.

Obligating the Council to go to war on your behalf regardless of circumstance is well beyond 'may bring issues to the attention of the Council... no input on the decision.'

I'm fairly sure that means that associate members don't get to vote on issues of international policy, like subsidies or mining regulations, that sort of stuff. But if an associate member is attacked, they are entitled to the military protection of the combined Citadel fleets.

Modifié par Vengeful Nature, 24 mai 2011 - 08:10 .

[Moiaussi]

Vengeful Nature wrote...

I agree, what I'm saying is that that is all it takes. Some Citadel Commission on Habitable Worlds, or whatever it's called, gives the go-ahead for both governments to start developing the region. But even "just ok'ing" them both is an act of criminal negligence or willful politics. Both the Alliance are the Hegemony are aggressive players on the interstellar stage. The Council should have, and indeed it is my argument that they did, predict that the two governments would eventually be at loggerheads over the territory.

I don't know about "needing a direction in which to expand." Space is insanely big, the Alliance could be kept busy for centuries with just the Local Cluster. The problem with this is that they want to compete with the big players and become a galactic power in their own right (I actually wouldn't have a problem with this). Which again brings us down to the Alliance being aggressive in its expansion. But my point is that the Council set this up from day one. Or such is my theory.

It is no more 'criminal negligence' than allowing any sort of competition within an economy. A strong enough caretaker to look after any colonies in the region on their own is very much in the Council's best interests.

[Indeed they are. The Viper Nebula, which is where Bahak is, is part of the Verge. Camala is just generally described as being in the Verge. Regardless, the wiki lists them as being part of the Verge.

I don't think clear boundaries are possible in space, given that's it's random, chaotic and 3-dimensional and things in it are drifting in all sorts of different directions. The best you can do is mark things up on a cluster-by-cluster, system-by-system or even planet-by-planet basis.

The geth were using the Armstrong Nebula in the Verge as a staging area for their forays into Alliance space. It is strange that no one in the Terminus Systems caught a wiff of them, but given the chaotic nature of the region, I'll let it slide. The geth are notoriously slippy, after all.

Actually the codex entry for the system is interesting and makes no sense whatsoever. Appearantly both empires were trying to colonize, but the Alliance decided the atmosphere was too thin and pulled out. The Batarians inexplicably called them cowards and put in the extra effort to show it could be done. It makes no sense in the light of everything else the codex says about the history of Batarian relations.

No I mean the seabed of the area around the North Pole. Lots of oil and gas up there, but it's very hard to get at. Give the article a read, it's pretty interesting stuff.

I know what you are talking about. As a Canadian, it is of direct interest. There are actual official borders up there. They are being disputed on the basis of better information as to where the ocean shelf lies.

It's still a heavily populated colony. It's just evidence that the Hegemony was there way before the Alliance, so their argument that the Verge was a zone of batarian interest carries a little weight, even if they weren't developing the whole region.

Elysium is listed as having a population of 'several million', so a Batarian system with a population of a million doesn't mean much as far as prescence. That was as of 2165.

Governments are built on technicalities.

Arguably, the Rachni Wars was an example of the Citadel's policy of collective security. I mean, someone's colony had to be attacked first, right? But yeah, we haven't got a clear example of this policy in action, not one that I can think of off the top of my head, anyway. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though.

You are confusing the Rachni wars with the Krogan rebellion. The Rachni hit Council ships first and were reacted to immediately. The Krogan were not reacted to until they hit an Asari world. It wasn't just a matter of someone having to be hit first. They didn't even mobilize til a member race was hit.

I'm fairly sure that means that associate members don't get to vote on issues of international policy, like subsidies or mining regulations, that sort of stuff. But if an associate member is attacked, they are entitled to the military protection of the combined Citadel fleets.

Find proof and I'll concede the point. Nihlus' comments don't count because the Council had other involvment in the region already.

[Dean_the_Young]

OmegaXI wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

OmegaXI wrote...

The batarians are not in council space so that means even when Shepard killed off the  Batarians system he did not break any laws in citidal space. So at most he commited a crime againist the batarians who are not longer part of citidal space and there by not protected by any of its laws.

So Shepard didn't break any law or commit any crime againist the Alliance or the council/ citidal races. So he can not be charged with anything for blowing up the relay and killing 300,000+ batarians.

You realize that most governments have laws against their citizens killing foreigners in foreign lands, yes?

the batarians withdrew from the treaty with citidal space, and most governments have laws aganist enslaving another person, but I understamnd what you are saying yes Shepard did commit a crime, but the crime was commited in and aganist a batarian system which is part of the terminous systems and not under the Council law.

So Shepard can't really be charged with breaking any alliance law since he did not commit the crime in alliance space. He was outside the Jurisdiction of Alliance law and space as well as council law and space, call it a technically.

You could have shorted that to a 'no, I am largely ignorant about the enforcement of laws and legal theory past national borders' and saved yourself the trouble of two paragraphs.

While enforcement stops at legal borders, jurisdiction doesn't do the same. Nearly all nations and states can and do criminalize things by their citizens outside of the nations, as well as liberal (and selective) applications of Universal Jurisdiction theory, as well as the jus cogens concept, as well as the erga omnes principal.

[jamesp81]

Killing 300,000 batarians isn't a crime.  It's a good start:devil::devil: