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[HAM Hawke]

Doing a playthrough supporting Templars and finishing up the Faith quest I noticed the Grand Cleric saying

"There is no greater devotion than to lay one's life at the Maker's feet.  There is no better death than to take the blow for another."  

So she knew that she was going to die?  Is she able to see the future, or was she underestimating the potential for disaster with the coming war between the Mages and Templars?  After Telling her along with Sebastian, to get out of Kirk Wall, I came to the conclusion that she wanted to be a Martyr for the Chantry.  Then I unlocked the cloak & dagger acheivement.  What is that for I have not done my Wiki research yet... 

[Beerfish]

Not at all. Sebastien said she should leave and she said she was not going to abandon her post and duties, she said that as any devout follower of a cause would say something like that. She later says that she is in no danger, after all who would try to kill the Grand cleric? I think if any high profile person with a cause is asked the same thing they will give a similar reply. 'I don't want to die but if I do I'll do it serving my cause.' Much like Anders more or less says the same thing. (I think he had a much better idea that he was probably going to die than Elthina who was naive.)

[dragonflight288]

Elthina was incredibly naive. When we tell her that the Divine wants her removed from Kirkwall because of the danger, Elthina is completely shocked.

[Exicuren]

Well, I think that the grand cleric did realize about the current situation in Kirkwall, she knew that sooner or later there was going to be a revolt and she would die in it, wether in the hands of the templars or the magi, so it really was inevitable.

[HAM Hawke]

Exicuren wrote...

Well, I think that the grand cleric did realize about the current situation in Kirkwall, she knew that sooner or later there was going to be a revolt and she would die in it, wether in the hands of the templars or the magi, so it really was inevitable.

 You think the Templars would have killed her if given the chance?  Wow, I could see them restraining her if she interfeared with their cause but Templars killing the Grand Cleric?

[CalJones]

I think she was in denial. As Beerfish says, she couldn't believe anyone would dare harm her. She had her head in the sand.

[TEWR]

I could see Meredith killing her due to the idol warping her mind. She might've thought she was under the influence of blood mages and felt a mercy death was needed.


Honestly, I do wonder if she knew she was going to die. Maybe she wanted to die, because maybe she knew that there was nothing she could do to get rid of Meredith without Meredith trying in some way to retain power. If so, then I have respect for her and it makes her not as incompetent at her job as we first thought.

She does give a few lines that make me lean more towards her accepting that she needed to die to do what was right.

[HAM Hawke]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I could see Meredith killing her due to the idol warping her mind. She might've thought she was under the influence of blood mages and felt a mercy death was needed.


Honestly, I do wonder if she knew she was going to die. Maybe she wanted to die, because maybe she knew that there was nothing she could do to get rid of Meredith without Meredith trying in some way to retain power. If so, then I have respect for her and it makes her not as incompetent at her job as we first thought.

She does give a few lines that make me lean more towards her accepting that she needed to die to do what was right.

I am thinking that she knew and was prepared to be the Martyr of the coming war.

[dgcatanisiri]

Elthina had no idea that it was as bad as it was. Sure, she came out and sent Meredith and Orsino to their rooms without supper. But that was one time, and she wasn't addressing the underlying issue. Denial and naive are the best words to describe her attitude, because she refused to accept that the problem could not be solved by Meredith and Orsino alone. They needed a third party intervening. Hawke, as the Champion, had the option and got undermined by Elthina walking out into that square and calling an end to things. She could have reined in Meredith's abuses, as the templars are supposed to be in the service of the Chantry. She could even have removed Meredith from authority. Even if Meredith wouldn't submit, an attempt would have been made. Instead, Elthina pulled a Jedi Council move and decided that waiting, thinking, and meditating on the problem might clear things up.

[dragonflight288]

Orsino also greatly respects Elthina, and sought her council. When Elthina asked him if rabblerousing in the square was rise, he listened and backed down without a fight. I got the impression Meredith backed down only because Orsino did.

[HAM Hawke]

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Elthina had no idea that it was as bad as it was. Sure, she came out and sent Meredith and Orsino to their rooms without supper. But that was one time, and she wasn't addressing the underlying issue. Denial and naive are the best words to describe her attitude, because she refused to accept that the problem could not be solved by Meredith and Orsino alone. They needed a third party intervening. Hawke, as the Champion, had the option and got undermined by Elthina walking out into that square and calling an end to things. She could have reined in Meredith's abuses, as the templars are supposed to be in the service of the Chantry. She could even have removed Meredith from authority. Even if Meredith wouldn't submit, an attempt would have been made. Instead, Elthina pulled a Jedi Council move and decided that waiting, thinking, and meditating on the problem might clear things up.

She is suppose to be the GRAND Cleric.  I would think she would be more open and decisive than in denial and naive...

[Rifneno]

HAM Hawke wrote...

Exicuren wrote...

Well, I think that the grand cleric did realize about the current situation in Kirkwall, she knew that sooner or later there was going to be a revolt and she would die in it, wether in the hands of the templars or the magi, so it really was inevitable.

 You think the Templars would have killed her if given the chance?  Wow, I could see them restraining her if she interfeared with their cause but Templars killing the Grand Cleric?

The templars in general?  No.  One specific templar that's suffering from delusional paranoia at the hands of an ancient evil lyrium idol telling her everyone that disagrees with her is a blood mage thrall?  Oh hell yes.

[Silfren]

HAM Hawke wrote...

Doing a playthrough supporting Templars and finishing up the Faith quest I noticed the Grand Cleric saying

"There is no greater devotion than to lay one's life at the Maker's feet.  There is no better death than to take the blow for another."  

So she knew that she was going to die?  Is she able to see the future, or was she underestimating the potential for disaster with the coming war between the Mages and Templars?  After Telling her along with Sebastian, to get out of Kirk Wall, I came to the conclusion that she wanted to be a Martyr for the Chantry.  Then I unlocked the cloak & dagger acheivement.  What is that for I have not done my Wiki research yet... 

Er, they were talking about her needing to get out of Kirkwall in the event of an Exalted March, and take refuge in Val Royeaux..basically saying that her life is in danger if she stays where she is because of the Divine's plan to attack the city.  In that context, talking about her death hardly means that she's able to see the future.  Her possibly dying in the crossfire was the subject of the conversation, so of course she's going to talk about it.  

She's just making it clear that she's prepared to die if that's what she faces by staying in Kirkwall.  There's nothing odd about it.

[Avilia]

Doesn't she flat out say that 'no one would dare kill her, as she's Grand Cleric'? Or similar? I'd say she just really didn't believe that she was a) in real danger and that even is she was that it would come to anything.

[Xilizhra]

I believe that she did decide to die because she knew she couldn't do anything else to actually help. But we never really got to know her.

[dgcatanisiri]

HAM Hawke wrote...

dgcatanisiri wrote...

Elthina had no idea that it was as bad as it was. Sure, she came out and sent Meredith and Orsino to their rooms without supper. But that was one time, and she wasn't addressing the underlying issue. Denial and naive are the best words to describe her attitude, because she refused to accept that the problem could not be solved by Meredith and Orsino alone. They needed a third party intervening. Hawke, as the Champion, had the option and got undermined by Elthina walking out into that square and calling an end to things. She could have reined in Meredith's abuses, as the templars are supposed to be in the service of the Chantry. She could even have removed Meredith from authority. Even if Meredith wouldn't submit, an attempt would have been made. Instead, Elthina pulled a Jedi Council move and decided that waiting, thinking, and meditating on the problem might clear things up.

She is suppose to be the GRAND Cleric.  I would think she would be more open and decisive than in denial and naive...

And yet, we have the game. As the Grand Cleric she was in a position to stand up to Meredith's attempts at martial law and remove her from power. She didn't, she just stood by and let things go to hell, staying safe in her Chantry rather than walk amongst the Circle and the templars and seeing what is going on. Meredith may not have let Orsino go to her, but it was impossible that there were no rumors that made it to the Chantry and her ears, and she just let it all happen.

[BlueMew]

dgcatanisiri wrote...
And yet, we have the game. As the Grand Cleric she was in a position to stand up to Meredith's attempts at martial law and remove her from power. She didn't, she just stood by and let things go to hell, staying safe in her Chantry rather than walk amongst the Circle and the templars and seeing what is going on. Meredith may not have let Orsino go to her, but it was impossible that there were no rumors that made it to the Chantry and her ears, and she just let it all happen.

Agreed. Even if she didn't believe the templars were capable of what they did (which I think highly improbable), she should at least have felt morally responsible and get to the bottom of things. Or let someone else do it, for that matter. Someone like Leliana would have found out what was going on quickly enough. But sit on your hands and pray for the Maker to fix your mess... hmmm, that doesn't sound Grand to me.

[Rifneno]

Avilia wrote...

Doesn't she flat out say that 'no one would dare kill her, as she's Grand Cleric'? Or similar? I'd say she just really didn't believe that she was a) in real danger and that even is she was that it would come to anything.

Yep.  "I'm the grand cleric; who would dare harm me?" I believe it was.  Arrogant old harpy.  That was the exact moment I officially stopped caring if she lived.

[SkittlesKat96]

I think Elthina wanted compromise, she didn't want to pick a side. Anders did pick a side and started a war, the thing is though we don't know if what Anders did was for the better (maybe there really was no chance of compromise? I suppose it's best not to assume, what Anders did was still technically wrong.)

I reckon Elthina should have been a bit more forceful with her ideas of compromise though, she was pretty useless.

[Winterfly]

The biggest idiot is Meredith. No one could stand her. What a hag. Of course Grand Cleric wanted to die not to clean up this mess!

[Drachasor]

The Grand Cleric was awful. She spends the whole game doing nothing to keep order among her subordinates who constantly try to get chaos and war to envelope the city. No surprise that they eventually succeed. In the end, most of the characters in the game are nuts or ineffectual.

[Sowtaaw]

Ethina should have fired Meredith and promoted Cullen to knight commander then meredith go nuts and kill Ethina at the ending and declare martial law and the estermination of every mage on the city, but the writers wanted to go with the anders blowing the chantry,

[dragonflight288]

Elthina should have, but I believe Meredith would have accused Elthina of being influenced by blood mages if that happened. Meredith accused templars of it after she kills all the mages. There weren't any more to influence them, but she still makes the accusation.

Meredith was just too nuts by Act 3 for Elthina to have done anything. That fact that doesn't even try and attempts to say "The Maker will solve it" when chantry lore teaches the Maker abandoned the world-twice. Why would he do anything if he's abandoned them?

[Rifneno]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Elthina should have, but I believe Meredith would have accused Elthina of being influenced by blood mages if that happened. Meredith accused templars of it after she kills all the mages. There weren't any more to influence them, but she still makes the accusation.

I've heard if you're pro-templar she gives you the Best Served Cold quest instead of Orsino.  At the end she'll ask if Orsino was involved in it and Hawke tells her no, because he wasn't.  She accuses Hawke of being a blood mage thrall at that too.  Someone that's always supported her insanity and just put down a rebellion single-handedly is accused of being a thrall because they didn't lie and tell her what she wants to hear.  Yeah, she's completely lost it by then.  ...  Ironically, because she's a thrall herself.

Which, when you think about it, adds another layer of failure.  Anders didn't need to do what he did.  It was only a matter of time before Meredith killed Elthina herself for being a blood mage thrall.

[TEWR]

I think that when Orsino said he was going to go see Elthina, had Anders' bomb not been there, Meredith would've killed her upon them both reaching the Chantry. And then she would've invoked the RoA.

Meredith played right into Anders' plans.