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[BHRamsay]

I keep reading the Elthina-was-naive argument and I'm not buying it.
The Divine was threatening an Exalted March. Such a move , if taken would have lead to hundreds of innocents being killed, mages and mundanes alike.
Are we really going argue that Elthina should have abandoned the people of Kirkwall to their fate. Or even worse, lend the support of the the Chantry to heartless bigots and the morally weak

[Fast Jimmy]

I think the Grand Cleric was less "naive" and more tied down by what she knew and her responsibilities. She wanted to be a diplomat and friend to everyone, but knew the Divine was taking a keen interest in the mage rebellions in Kirkwall.

So she wanted to be merciful to the mages and her friend Orsino, but she knew that if she appeared to be taking the Mages side while reports to Orlais of blood mages, abominations and apostate mages walking the streets of Kirkwall were causing the Divine to become more and more apprehensive, she would be stripped of her position and be of help to no one.

Could she have done better in her roles and in the Kirkwall situation? Absolutely. But you'd be surprised how timid people become when they think any move they make will cost them their high profile job.

[BHRamsay]

I have a hard time hating someone for wanting to hold on to their job ... especially since Elthina was being let down by everyone around her.
Her Knight-Commander of the Templar Order is a full court whack job who sees blood mages in every shadow.
Her First Enchanter seems content to hand-wave the most vile misuse of magic as long as THE CIRCLE was safe.
She has an extremist bigot for a Reverend Mother so single minded she was willing to see the city burn trying to start a bloody war Everybody else was trying to stop.
Her only protection from this chaos is a stuck up rich boy who changes his mind every five minutes about where his loyalties lie -- to say nothing of his obvious prejudices issues.
By the time act3 rolls around I viewed my relationship with Elthina as being the only bright spot in that womans life, I mean sure Hawke is a smartmouth but at least his/her heart is truly in the right place most of the time.

[Fast Jimmy]

I concur. The Reverend Mother wasn't NEARLY as worthless as the Viscount. If we are going to be calling leaders out on being naive and ineffective, his name should be at the top.

Then again... his head did roll for his lack of leadership. Literally. So I guess the lesson learned here is... Ineffective, indecisive leaders get killed by zealots, who are in turn killed by the level-headed people who should be in charge in the first place?

The great political Circle of Life...? Man, humanity sure is awesome...

[dgcatanisiri]

Elthina may have wanted to do her job, but the problem with that is exactly what has been pointed out - EVERYONE around her wasn't on the same page. As much as I respect holding on to your principles in difficult times, the fact of the matter is when everyone around you is gearing for war, words of peace right hollow. Both sides were preparing for open combat, and she is in the center, asking politely for it all to stop. Neither were going to listen to her.

She had authority in Kirkwall. She talked and they listened. Rather than say 'you're both screwing up, time to shape up and get things right or you're gone,' she said 'this is not the time or place for such talk. She wouldn't even say if she considered either side in the wrong. She could have gone after Meredith for putting the city in martial law or trying to oust the City Guard, or Orsino for the numerous blood mages running around (they had to have learned this stuff somewhere). She didn't. It's her lack of action that makes me call her naive.

As for the Viscount, it's not surprising that his leadership wasn't the most effective - remember what you're told getting in to Kirkwall? The Viscount is essentially a puppet leader for Meredith. And this is long before the red lyrium idol, indicating that Meredith was on the path to crazy long before it.

[BHRamsay]

Elthina has authority alright and it is being undermined constantly ...and by people who claim the greater good as their excuse... Take the Tranquil Solution as an example.

Elthina is visibly upset when you present her with the Tranquil Solution papers not because of what they contain (because she already knows and knows the plan was rejected --- maybe with her help) but because of what you being in possession of them represents.

I would have loved to have had the option of admitting to killing Ser Ulrik just to have her go postal on you for your actions. Something along the lines of her being angry that she will be forced to hide what you've done from both Orsino and Meredith lest they use the murder as fuel for their idiocy.

[Rithmerdui]

Viscount: Political power and city influence. When he died it would have seemed Elthina even had more power than both Meredith and Orsino.
Grand Cleric Elthina: Religious Power is second to the viscount, being one highly devoted to the maker. Elthina favored both Orsino and Meredith, so she could not pick sides, also she would sacrifice herself in order to get peace if there was no other way.
Meredith: Military power, she had a large templar army. (Mentioned that she somehow manipulates both Viscount Dumar, and Grand Cleric, to get whatever she want)
Orsino: Magical power, didn't really got so much power, except over the circle, because of his power is limited to just control the mages.

Also that Elthina could not leave since the chaos between mages and templars.
She can't leave Kirkwall without a Viscount, that would be chaotic, leaving would result in Meredith taking over entirely and Kirkwall become under military rule, which would make the mages revolt and many lifes would be lost, and Kirkwall would be ruined.
Also she would not leave so that the mages would be in control, so it would be another mage imperium(If Meredith would fail to take over and she would be killed by Orsino and the mages).
Elthina was the very balance between mages and templars, she was the only one to keep it all togheter through peaceful means. when she did die the balance was lost and the war began.
You could pretty much say her death was the catalyst which started the war between mages and templars.
She had lived in Kirkwall nearly all her life even and the people loves her.
Her strong belief in the maker may also give her some reasons why she do not want to leave.

There is many reasons she would stay in Kirkwall. and because of her belief to make things better she died. Anders did everything his way by removing the compromise by blowing her up, because he felt her being incompetent.

Modifié par Nemeriss, 23 mai 2011 - 12:49 .

[LyndseyCousland]

As an answer to the original question: I don't think she knew she was going to die, or that she wished to be a martyr. She was simply a good woman.

[LyndseyCousland]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

LyndseyCousland wrote...

As an answer to the original question: I don't think she knew she was going to die, or that she wished to be a martyr. She was simply a good woman.

How do you know? Maybe under that warm exterior, Patrick Bateman was waiting to be unleashed.

See, an image of a topless Christian Bale has now taken over my mind and I now can't form a coherent argument. SO! *drools and sits in the corner*



Though it would have been quite intense if she just bolted out of the chantry with a chainsaw and chased Anders.

[Rifneno]

LyndseyCousland wrote...

As an answer to the original question: I don't think she knew she was going to die, or that she wished to be a martyr. She was simply a good woman.

ROFL!  Thanks, this thread needed a good joke to lighten the mood.  

[LyndseyCousland]

Rifneno wrote...

LyndseyCousland wrote...

As an answer to the original question: I don't think she knew she was going to die, or that she wished to be a martyr. She was simply a good woman.

ROFL!  Thanks, this thread needed a good joke to lighten the mood.  

You'll have to explain that one to me.

[LyndseyCousland]

I don't see how her simply walking away from Petrice getting headshot by a BIG LUMBERING QUNARI as making her somehow not a good woman. xD

Plus, she could have been in shock.

[LyndseyCousland]

Not Petrice. I meant the Grand Cleric.
I don't know I'd agree with the idea that she condoned the murder by walking away but I understand your point.

I still stand by believing that Elthina was decent. She wasn't perfect but no-one is. Not even a grand cleric (Sebastian +5 rivalry).

[LyndseyCousland]

Maybe I'm too trusting and/or optimistic. I more got the feeling that she had principles she wouldn't shake instead of her being a coward. I could have missed some dialogue somewhere.

Then again I was pretty respectful to her because she never gave me any real reason to be rude. Her wait-and-see attitude did seem somewhat cowardly.

[RangerSG]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Elthina should have, but I believe Meredith would have accused Elthina of being influenced by blood mages if that happened. Meredith accused templars of it after she kills all the mages. There weren't any more to influence them, but she still makes the accusation.

Meredith was just too nuts by Act 3 for Elthina to have done anything. That fact that doesn't even try and attempts to say "The Maker will solve it" when chantry lore teaches the Maker abandoned the world-twice. Why would he do anything if he's abandoned them?

I think this is the issue. I believe Elthina really thinks that Meredith is still sane and can be reasoned with. Also, she's in a horrible spot, given Meredith's power in removing the previous Viscount as well.

Short of appealing to Val Roy, I don't know what Elthina could have done realistically, and why would she make that appeal if she thinks Meredith is sane?

Also, quite honestly, I think Anders is just as bats as  Meredith at this point. If you read the codex, you can see that he's been increasingly bi-polar for the 3 years between Acts 2 & 3. So really, other than your PC, who could've predicted Anders would have done something *that* outlandish?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elthina might be "good", but she is most certainly useless and did not perform her function as she should have.

I seriously think that if Petrice was Grand Mother, that she probably would have been much more active in regards to the Mage / Templar conflict. Though I am not sure if she would have been a mediator or pro-Templar. Of course when it comes to the Qunari, she probably would have been a disaster.

[LyndseyCousland]

I hadn't viewed her as indifferent. I figured she seemed pretty concerned. D: It's interesting to see the different take on her character though; will give me something to think about when I replay.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Alistairlover94 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elthina might be "good", but she is most certainly useless and did not perform her function as she should have.

I seriously think that if Petrice was Grand Mother, that she probably would have been much more active in regards to the Mage / Templar conflict. Though I am not sure if she would have been a mediator or pro-Templar. Of course when it comes to the Qunari, she probably would have been a disaster.

This. Elhina just sat on her bum for 7 years, doing nothng about the increasing hostility between the mages and Templars in Jerkwall. And I suspect Petrice would have been Pro-Templar, which I would have wholeheartedly supported.

This made me laugh, thanks!