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[Xilizhra]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you're telling me, if God forbids your mother is murdered by a lunatic and you know that lunatic had some help from the Circle, that you would not even try to investigate?

If they were one of hundreds of people in a concentration camp run by a crazed paranoiac? I think I'd consider my personal issues lesser than the potential fallout that could land on them.

Family in RL tends to always come first. Strangers second thats human nature and Hawke was human. Jumping to the defense of lack of interest shown in relation to asking a mother about her BF or probing into who she is dating after years of seeing him is irrelevant to the fallout of anything, its talking to a family member about family issues like any family would do the wider issues have no relevence to this.

Oh, the rest of that questline is total steaming crap. I just found it odd that KoP chose to attack the one part of it I didn't mind.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
Entertainment is a bit more of an abstract concept than hair dye. Unless you really do buy your games expecting exactly what's on the box, in which case I doubt you'd ever be happy with any sort of artistic medium.

No, I expect quality first and foremost, something I did not feel I got, at least not worth my 60$.

What I do expect however is not insulting my intelligence and claim one thing and then get the complete opposite (and then claim that it was a deliberate attempted plot twist).

There is nothing abstract when you had devs actually giving details about a rise to power that never happened and claiming you can determine how. This is not typical marketing for games, at least not the games I've bothered buying.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 mai 2011 - 11:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you're telling me, if God forbids your mother is murdered by a lunatic and you know that lunatic had some help from the Circle, that you would not even try to investigate?

If they were one of hundreds of people in a concentration camp run by a crazed paranoiac? I think I'd consider my personal issues lesser than the potential fallout that could land on them.

You don't have to tell Meredith, you can lead a private investigation if you're so worried about them.

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you're telling me, if God forbids your mother is murdered by a lunatic and you know that lunatic had some help from the Circle, that you would not even try to investigate?

If they were one of hundreds of people in a concentration camp run by a crazed paranoiac? I think I'd consider my personal issues lesser than the potential fallout that could land on them.

You don't have to tell Meredith, you can lead a private investigation if you're so worried about them.

Trying to privately investigate in the Gallows? And I thought that bombing it was unrealistic...

[brgillespie]

You score cool points for having a David Xanatos avatar.

[ipgd]

Slugwood wrote...

Okay, this is more of a possibility.  Makes me worried for the writing team's careers, though, if they had the gonads to intentionally pull off something that would ****** off swaths of customers.  Certainly said executives would not be happy if that was the case.

It's too bad, of course, that it's unlikely we'd get to actually have this conversation with the writers themselves in a forum where they didn't have to toe the company line.

(Pardon my cynicism.)

I don't think the goal was specifically to ****** people off, per se. I think they were expecting more of an appreciative "oh, I see what you did there" reaction as you might have with a novel, movie, television show, etc., but uh... games are a decidedly and unfortunately younger medium enjoyed largely by people who aren't as open to that sort of thing.

[Dragoonlordz]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Don't get me wrong I'm glad you liked DA2 but to me personally DA2 had more inline with bondage and being tied up thrown in boot of a car and dropped in middle of carpark. You was just along for the ride and had no real choice in fact the opposite, where you was railroaded forced one way throughout the entire game on everything except  companions and some very small quests, the biggest was elves everything else was microscopic in affect. Some people like being helpless and tied up but I am not one of them, DA2 was the former and I am the latter.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 mai 2011 - 11:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Xilizhra wrote...
Trying to privately investigate in the Gallows? And I thought that bombing it was unrealistic...

Yes, since you had mages out there and not tranquilized ones.

Perhaps even ask Thrashk to let you in. Or Cullen.

Or as Champion of Kirkwall and a noble, request a meeting with Orsino.

[upsettingshorts]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

DA2 claimed to have something that it did not and it had the complete opposite. It's the same.

I disagree, ergo it is open to interpretation, ergo comparing it to different colors or even using phrases like "complete opposite" don't hold up.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Laidlaw said that one of those ways could have Hawke commanding armies. Where was that?

He listed it as a hypothetical possibility.  Context is important.  Were he to have listed an actual event from the game it would be what we on the forums call a "story spoiler" and in general, people hate those.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Furthermore, since the entire story is about forging a legend of the Champion (which Varric narrates to someone), the internal thinking of the Champion is not the only important thing. It's rather what he did materially. And there was no choice to determine what the Champion was. 

What he did was important, to Kirkwall and Thedas.  It just wasn't really up to the player that much.  Kinda like how the Warden always succeeds in ending the Blight.  So yes, I'd equate wanting to radically alter the path of the Champion for the sake of choice to having the Warden be able to abandon Ferelden and let it burn to cinders.  Both games call for certain events to have taken place by certain people. 

Who Hawke was was important to me.  If it wasn't important to you then you simply weren't hooked by the narrative, and that's perfectly fine.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't mind roleplaying vis-avis Hawke's personality. But that's not all. Choices reflect personality and character more than internalized thinking.

My Hawke got to express his internalized thinking through choices in almost every quest in the game.  That we weren't picking kings, but determining how Hawke would respond in various situations, doesn't detract from the experience for me.  It does for some people, some of whom don't care about a choice unless it sets a plot flag for the sequel.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Not talking about power here, but laziness.

Actually, you were.

You said laziness was masked as powerlessness.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The beginning of Act 3 makes it clear that the Champion never made his opinion of the entire issue public. That only after 3 years, does he state his position. And don't say he was trying to subtly grabing power from behind the scenes, because there was nothing. Despite there being a lot of opportunies. 

And at what point does "the public" have any say over what ultimately happens to Kirkwall?

The people of any significant influence are either EVENTED in a cutscene or gathered to witness it.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Investments, and not in a mine that we know ends up destroyed by Act 3.

And why doesn't the mine count?  Because it doesn't support your argument?  He's employing Ferelden refugees.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I think the Warden had his moments of being pro-ative. Like actually rising to power when he doesn't have to. Deliberately befriending Alistair and planning to put him on the throne and control him is pro-active.

Might be illusionary at the end,m but it was still there.

If illusionary pro-activity counts then I'd fall back on the subjectivity argument. 

This just reads to me like all your points could be boiled down to, "I just didn't buy in to the story at any point."  Which is fine, but entirely different from "This story is fundamentally flawed and the issues are X, Y, Z."

I feel similarly about TW2, but I wouldn't call the story or characters bad.  They just don't hook me, and as such, the emotional weight of certain decisions doesn't effect me because I simply don't care.  It happens.

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Don't get me wrong I'm glad you liked DA2 but to me personally DA2 had more inline with bondage and being tied up thrown in boot of a car and dropped in middle of carpark. You was just along for the ride and had no real choice in fact the opposite, where you was railroaded forced one way throughout the entire game on everything except  companions and some very small quests, the biggest was elves everything else was microscopic in affect. Some peoplelike being helpless and tied up but I am not one of them, DA2 was the former and I am the latter.

I honestly felt more "along for the ride" in Origins.  Especially when I was playing a character who hated and resented the Grey Wardens, and/or really didn't care about Ferelden.  

As a player who isn't a big fan of the Wardens or Ferelden (I never expressed any fondness for the latter when questioned about it by any companion in DA2, just for example) a hint of this was present in every playthrough.  

Like I said, a lot rides on whether or not you buy in to a story or not.

Alistairlover94 wrote...

She met Javaris completely by random(anyone as skilled at killing as Hawke could've save the fool from spiders). She met The Arishok simply because she was in need of coin for the expdition, Later, she stopped The Arishok because she was invited by Aveline to assist The Guard. If she didn't know Aveline, she would not have been there, which means she wouldn't have confronted The Arishok. Hawk stumbled onte the title of Champion.

To me that seems like a "plot." How many people are as good at combat?  How many people are on the expedition?  How many people would Aveline ask for assistance?  Someone who stumbled on to being Champion would be if some dude present in the Throne room was made champion simply because their appointment to the vague "position" would be politically convenient, or some other unrelated-to-action reason.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mai 2011 - 11:24 .

[Xilizhra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Trying to privately investigate in the Gallows? And I thought that bombing it was unrealistic...

Yes, since you had mages out there and not tranquilized ones.

Perhaps even ask Thrashk to let you in. Or Cullen.

Or as Champion of Kirkwall and a noble, request a meeting with Orsino.

You could ask around the courtyard, but you'd never be able to get inside for evidence that isn't word-of-mouth that way. Cullen isn't safe; he's too loyal. Thrask might work, but I don't know if he has enough pull. Meredith would never allow an audience with Orsino.

[Aesri]

Meh, opine away if you like. Forum fun for all. I liked DA...and I was SO not "all about" getting it at all to begin with. I'm a speculative fiction nut, but I like my techy/sci-fi-y flavor over others in greater measure. However, I'm also an RPGer of the elder school. 20+ years of table-top/SPRPG/MMO gives me a longer view than some, I guess...and with that, I can only say that I took DA2 on it's own merits. I do that with movies/games/books and on the whole, I can't say I dislike it. It's not Rifts, nor is it Tolkien, nor is it Fallout or even a true "sequel" (being a continuation of the firsts story in my usage of the term).

So what? For me it was disposable income spent on a fun little romp that I might play with a few more times. Then again I'm a characterist and as such I derive entertainment from acting within a world (be it as an omnipotent author or as an actor in-world) regardless of whether or not I'm the special snowflake that alters the reality in total or merely flips their own script while the world turns on regardless.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned. Or just old. I'd have wanted more, I guess, if I'd come with expectations or demands of the product other than for it to entertain me, period.

The genre of game is changing, granted. But then, evolution isn't always comfortable and linear.

*shrug* YMMV....

[Slugwood]

ipgd wrote...

I don't think the goal was specifically to ****** people off, per se. I think they were expecting more of an appreciative "oh, I see what you did there" reaction as you might have with a novel, movie, television show, etc., but uh... games are a decidedly and unfortunately younger medium enjoyed largely by people who aren't as open to that sort of thing.

Ha, true enough.  Reminds me of my college presentation on The Possibility of Video Games As Art and the "wtf bro, games are all about mindlessly shooting things" vibe I got in return...

EDIT for realization: I guess, if you are correct, then it is both a genuine artistic statement and a miscalculation.

Modifié par Slugwood, 21 mai 2011 - 11:29 .

[upsettingshorts]

double post

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mai 2011 - 11:25 .

[Mr.House]

My Hawke killed the Arishok by herself, I say she earned it, even if the title was useless.

[Zjarcal]

Alistairlover94 wrote...
None of the people i've supposedly known for a decade don't like Hawke enough to talk to her more than 3-4 times during after each time-skip.

That's what you're shown. For that matter, you would also be saying that in Origins the companions never spoke to the warden once they run out of dialogue.

You're free to imagine that plenty of conversations happen at other times. If you don't want to do that, well, that's not really a problem of the game.

No one listens to Hawke's advice....

The majority of the companions did listen to Hawke's advice.

[Dragoonlordz]

Aesri wrote...

The genre of game is changing, granted. But then, evolution isn't always comfortable and linear.

*shrug* YMMV....

And it (change) isn't always for the better either. DA2 is not evolution at all its a regression, that place it is trying to blend its way into is an overflooded marketplace. That of cinematic games with action and/or rpg elements.

[Robtachi]

No, it's not.


But it's not that good, either.

[Dragoonlordz]

Zjarcal wrote...
The majority of the companions did listen to Hawke's advice.

Than tell them to change their clothes I dare you because they have been wearing the same thing day in day out for years.

[upsettingshorts]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...
The majority of the companions did listen to Hawke's advice.

Than tell them to change their clothes I dare you because they have been wearing the same thing day in day out for years.

That's not what Zjarcal was talking about and you know it.

For God's sake the quests are even called, "Questioning Beliefs."

Alistairlover94 wrote...

"Don't do anything you'll regret Anders".

KA-BOOM!!!

"You should abandon your thirst for vengeance".

This is in-character.

Friendpath:  Anders, through Hawke's encouragement, embraces his connection with Justice.  Ergo, KABOOM.
Rivalpath:  Anders, through Hawke's criticism, attempts to fight Justice for control of his mind and fails.  Ergo, KABOOM.

Alistairlover94 wrote...

"Orsiono, we will fight for the mages freedom!"

*turns into Harvester*

Okay, that was lame. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 mai 2011 - 11:32 .

[Slugwood]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Aesri wrote...

The genre of game is changing, granted. But then, evolution isn't always comfortable and linear.

*shrug* YMMV....

And it (change) isn't always for the better either. DA2 is not evolution at all its a regression, that place it is trying to blend its way into is an overflooded marketplace. That of cinematic games with action and/or rpg elements.

I must say that is quite subjective.  If we're going by the storyline debate that's been going on--I doubt that jives easily with the "overflooded marketplace"/Call of Duty audience.

Maybe the "mainstreaming" of the visuals/gameplay mixed with the "artistic daring" of the writing was what did it in.

[Nerdage]

Just buy it. What's the worst that'll happen? Nothing's going to catch fire, you won't catch plague. Worst case: You're out ~£30, but considering the hours of entertainment that seems to buy everyone in coming here and bi*ching about it, it seems like good value for money either way.