791 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

Fixers0 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...



What we DO know about them is this:
-Thermal clips are the containers carrying material for heat sinks. Where was that stated? not in the codex.
-Heat sinks are stored internally in a weapon.  Where?
-Heat sinks have a distinct shape when ejected from a weapon (A shape and size that doesn't fit too well with the shape and size of thermal clips, btw) Wrong, the all look the same
-Heat sinks are adaptive. Ie. It depends on the heatproducing capability of the weapon how much heat sink material is used to keep the weapon at a safe level of warmth. Again never statet or told, just your own imagniation

Just a small edit.

Conclusion, You're inducing things when they were never tolled, you're inventing a Narative that doesn't exist. Why does Shepard nevers has to put a new clips in his weapons? why do enemies drop thermal clip with less ammo?<why is there an 'ammo' counter with resever 'ammo'?  where are thermal clips stored? I haven't seen any pockets.

Thermal clips and heat sinks are specifically used as thermal clips describing the clips you pick up and heat sinks as the ejected components.

The upgrade pictures specifically display internal components when you upgrade heat sink capability.

One thermal clip gives you different amount of 'heat sink capbility' depending on weapon. You cannot refute this. The amount of shots a weapon can fire before it needs to eject a heat sink, as well as the amount of heat sinks each weapon is capable of storing differs from weapon to weapon.

And no, thermal clips and heat sinks look nothing alike. You can see this just by looking at the graphics in game.

[Jorina Leto]

And again they're violating the lore with this sucking gameplay.

And if there's no possibility in the options menu to switch between ME1-Mechanics and the sucking Thermal Clips, the game cannot be better than ME1.

[Fixers0]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Thermal clips and heat sinks are specifically used as thermal clips describing the clips you pick up and heat sinks as the ejected components.

The upgrade pictures specifically display internal components when you upgrade heat sink capability.

One thermal clip gives you different amount of 'heat sink capbility' depending on weapon. You cannot refute this. The amount of shots a weapon can fire before it needs to eject a heat sink, as well as the amount of heat sinks each weapon is capable of storing differs from weapon to weapon.

And no, thermal clips and heat sinks look nothing alike. You can see this just by looking at the graphics in game.

First of all





They look awfully similar.

So Thermal clips and heatsinks are different okay, but that was never the problem, you say that Thermal clips are containers that Carry materiasl to create heatsinks, how is it possible to deduce that based only fact that thermal clips and heatsinks are different, if there is no explanation given then it's most logical to go with the simplist one , that is that Thermal clips store heat sinks.

And as far as that argument goes that heat sinks in different weapons have different capabilities, you again looked over the most obivious thing, that is that certain weapons build up more heat per shot then other weapons do.

So there is really nothing to indicate that there are different types of heatsinks.

[Minister of Sound]

I'd be willing to bet that they'll give us weapon mods that let us carry more ammo, so I'm not worried. I admit, I did not like running out of ammo for the sniper rifle, but I prefer hunting for clips than the boredom of keeping my right trigger held down.

[Varen Spectre]

Kaylord wrote...

Deus Ex 2 got totally crucified because they introduced generic ammo, and ME 2 gets away with it just like that.

IRC (corect me) the big difference is that in Deus Ex 2 all weapons took ammo from one universal stock, which in addition was very small, while in Mass Effect 2, each weapon has its own reserves and the ammo system basically works like in any other game.  

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 23 mai 2011 - 05:04 .

[Someone With Mass]

Jorina Leto wrote...

And again they're violating the lore with this sucking gameplay.

And if there's no possibility in the options menu to switch between ME1-Mechanics and the sucking Thermal Clips, the game cannot be better than ME1.

Because ME1 was sooo good with its weapons that were identical to each other and never changed at all besides stats-based stuff.
I can't care less if it's not true to the lore. I like it, and I prefer the way ME3 is going with.

Besides, adding a cooldown factor is just so unnecessary.

[Clonedzero]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

And again they're violating the lore with this sucking gameplay.

And if there's no possibility in the options menu to switch between ME1-Mechanics and the sucking Thermal Clips, the game cannot be better than ME1.

Because ME1 was sooo good with its weapons that were identical to each other and never changed at all besides stats-based stuff.
I can't care less if it's not true to the lore. I like it, and I prefer the way ME3 is going with.

Besides, adding a cooldown factor is just so unnecessary.

i agree.

ME1 weapon system was horrible. especially late game where you could SHOOT FOREVER. it flat out broke the game and made shootouts feel like a joke. it ruined ME1's combat, i enjoy the first half of ME1 where things actually overheat fairly fast, the second half was just the least fun combat ever. hold trigger down until everything is dead.

[The Spamming Troll]

Can someone please explain to me why everyone who "fired forever" seems to think they broke the game.

Sorry to tell you all, your fire-forever weapon simply sucked.

Its the only fault of ME1 weapons ive ever seen and its completely invalid.

[tonnactus]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Can someone please explain to me why everyone who "fired forever" seems to think they broke the game.

Of course: First,it was a decision a player could make but wasnt forced too.Only an idiot would complain about something that they could change if they want.
Second,on harder difficulties,abilities were needed to defeat the harder enemies.Sure it was possible to kill a krogan on insanity with bullets alone if the player has a lot of sparetime. Another one would prevent them from using immunity,and in the case they still use it,just neutralize this with warp.

[Crackseed]

To be honest, the immersion point that made the ME2 system better for me was having to have a break in firing with the cooling clips. I'd almost argue that while ME1's system was broken and I do prefer 2's, you could get away with basically indicating that every trooper has enough clips for an extended firefight and basically the only actual action that needs to be done is when the weapon hits the clip limit, have to eject and slap in a new one. You wouldn't have to go hunting for clips but you also could still not just "run and spray" - but you'd also combine both systems in a way. Unlimited "ammo" but still needing to time your firing patterns so that you don't overheat your clip at a critical moment and get mowed down.

I'm fine with ME2's system staying how it is - especially if the upgrades let you get a bit of extra mileage out of clips, but the above statement is something I would love to test if I were developing ME3 just to see how it works. You'd keep immersion and tactical use w/o forcing players to run around hunting clips OR promoting "run and spray forever" ME1 syndrome.

Summary [TL;DR] - Unlimited clips for every mission, but you still have to eject and slot in a new clip when you hit the "shot limit" for that weapon.

Modifié par crackseed, 23 mai 2011 - 07:22 .

[ObserverStatus]

personally i hated looking for ammo in me2, it wouldn't be so bad if he could carry enough ammo to win the longest fights without having to leave cover to go on a scavenger hunt

[CajNatalie]

"Fire forever" requires you to mod your gun with 'frictionless materials' instead of going for 'scram rail's and other mods that increase heat.
Firing forever results in crap damage, most noticeable on Hardcore/Insanity modes. If you use a pure fire forever weapon then you'll spend numerous minutes killing just one merc.

If you think making your weapon fire forever breaks the game, then here's a newsflash. Don't mod it like that! Firing forever is self-inflicted. Even the best Spectre gear overheats when unmodded.

...not that I specifically support retconning the ammo again to heat. I'm personally only interested with fixing the explanation and execution of thermal clips (along with making Shep actually bring a sensible ammo count for the job that doesn't require scrounging). Alternatively an option in a menu to switch ammo styles would do as it would satisfy the overheat lovers. I'm okay sticking to clips, though. Took me a bit of adjustment, but I'm happy to keep using them.

[Ahglock]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

And again they're violating the lore with this sucking gameplay.

And if there's no possibility in the options menu to switch between ME1-Mechanics and the sucking Thermal Clips, the game cannot be better than ME1.

Because ME1 was sooo good with its weapons that were identical to each other and never changed at all besides stats-based stuff.
I can't care less if it's not true to the lore. I like it, and I prefer the way ME3 is going with.

Besides, adding a cooldown factor is just so unnecessary.

But overall ME1 weapons were almost as diverse as ME2 weapons maybe more so after mods and ammo had nothing to do with it one way or the other.  Both games had guns variable by accuracy and damage, one had a variable of heat, the other ammo which is basically the same thing though.  The only thing ME2 added was a wider rangeof appearances for guns and autofire category weapons had different firing modes.  So yeah they "fired" differently in that a tempest is full auto and  shurken is burst fire, um whopedy what does that have to do wih ammo.  A heat management system could have that in as well.  

Modifié par Ahglock, 23 mai 2011 - 07:38 .

[Devos]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Can someone please explain to me why everyone who "fired forever" seems to think they broke the game.

Sorry to tell you all, your fire-forever weapon simply sucked.

Its the only fault of ME1 weapons ive ever seen and its completely invalid.

IIRC we clashed over this on the old forum but there is mileage in the long period to overheat in ME1. Even excluding the ridiculous extremes of zero heat generation negating sabotage it's the "S" in DPS that makes it worth while. It was possible to keep enemies in your line of fire long enough that the massive increase in length of time to overheat would out strip the advantage of much shorter time to overheat but slightly higher damage.

But there is two things I would like to point out about this...

First the reason the "S" in DPS was so important is because you could stand in the line of enemy fire without any trouble thanks to ridiculous survivability and hold enemies out of cover with Biotics. Even taking a reductio ad absurdom argument that ME1's system is equivilent to not just infinite ammo but infinitely long clips in ME2 if you stood and fired endlessly you would be forced to cover to recover shields/health quicker than you would empty a clip on most guns (on Insanity at least). That forced stop is long enough to reload anyway. Possible exception would be Charge chains but if that was really a problem then why intentionally include the reload trick. ME1's endless bullet sprays were much more a result of survivability and biotic lock downs than the cooling system. They couldn't happen in ME2.

Second the fact there is something to argue about in ME1's cooling system shows it didn't degenerate to a trivial system... well not entirely. For maximising damage out put there were a couple of significantly different set ups of mods. When it came to mods with utility (like High Explosive Rounds) the trade offs on cooling and overheat came into play again meaning different players could have different set ups and reasonably argue why they worked better for them. This is something that gets lost in the talks of a broken system: It added depth in a way ME2's ammo system completely fails to.

All that said, as I've written before I don't have a problem with a thermal clip, limited ammo system if it is implemented well. (though I don't see how anyone could reasonably argue for it making sense in lore) I certainly don't want Bioware switching around at this stage. Personally I suspect many of the problems with the ammo system in ME2 was that locking in the design was a late decision.

[Halo Quea]

CajNatalie wrote...

 I'm personally only interested with fixing the explanation and execution of thermal clips (along with making Shep actually bring a sensible ammo count for the job that doesn't require scrounging).

It can't be fixed, that's the problem.  The explained scientific logic behind thermal clips is completely broken.

ME1's reasoning was great, even if didn't fit the model for gunplay that you can find in eeeeeeeeevery damned shooter.   Weapons have a mass driver that magnetically suspends a precisely calculated and cut projectile from an ammo block that NEVER comes in contact with ANY internal parts.  Heat is dampened or mitigated by the mass driver's magnetic field the instant the weapon is fired, requiring only a brief cool down period.  Intelligent, efficient design for a weapon in the 23rd century. 

Enter thermal clips and broken logic.

Using Bioware's own explaination, (which I don't intend to go over again) the function and purpose of thermal clips creates a device that ultimately should be unusable.  These heat sink devices that function as a (un-needed) solution for thermal magnetic heat transfer would be burning on the battlefield like hot coals!  You would see steam and vapor rising from them as they were ejected from weapons.  You would feel intense burning heat against your face as you approached them.   If you picked them up you would lose your fingers or your entire hand. 

So even if you could pick it up it would still be an absolute hazzard to place this white hot burning clip in your own weapon which is a micro mass accelerator containing ezo that produces dark matter energy.  LMAO!!

Death or Cake anyone?   And always remember...............the cake is a lie

[Scandigeek]

I remeber an old ID game, before they even did Wolfenstien, where if you ran out of ammo, you could still fire, but at a reduced rate, like one shot a button press or something.

They could do something like that for some of the guns. 

Or what they could do is give you a pistol that doesn't use clips that you can use as a back up if you run out of ammo. 

[CroGamer002]

How the f*ck Thermal Clips break immersion?

[Someone With Mass]

Mesina2 wrote...

How the f*ck Thermal Clips break immersion?

Apparently, it's too hard for people to accept that the galaxy implemented this technology in two years.

I know that the story behind it sounds silly, but I don't care about trivial stuff like that.

And people can't apparently spend ten seconds of their precious time looking for clips.

[theelementslayer]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

How the f*ck Thermal Clips break immersion?

Apparently, it's too hard for people to accept that the galaxy implemented this technology in two years.

I know that the story behind it sounds silly, but I don't care about trivial stuff like that.

And people can't apparently spend ten seconds of their precious time looking for clips.

It just breaks immersion cant you tell, just does no questions. Makes me rage so much RAGEEEEEE.

But anways, i think people dont like it because they have to aim and have to micromanage which guns to use. Because I constantly find myself switching between pistol and widow (infiltrator) and sometimes busting out the Tempest if husks come too close for comfort. In ME1 I only ever used one gun when I got it. The Spectre assault rifle. And I never had to worry about my aim either cause there was no penalty for missing really.

I think thats why they dont like it. Now people have to be a bit more careful with their shots, especailly snipers. I cannt tell how many times Ive swore under my breath after missing a shot with the widow in cloak mode, as that would take down a collector one hit (headshot). 

I personally like clips or whatever people want to call them, it gives more of a challenge to gunfights.

[Firesteel]

Halo Quea wrote...

CajNatalie wrote...

 I'm personally only interested with fixing the explanation and execution of thermal clips (along with making Shep actually bring a sensible ammo count for the job that doesn't require scrounging).

It can't be fixed, that's the problem.  The explained scientific logic behind thermal clips is completely broken.

ME1's reasoning was great, even if didn't fit the model for gunplay that you can find in eeeeeeeeevery damned shooter.   Weapons have a mass driver that magnetically suspends a precisely calculated and cut projectile from an ammo block that NEVER comes in contact with ANY internal parts.  Heat is dampened or mitigated by the mass driver's magnetic field the instant the weapon is fired, requiring only a brief cool down period.  Intelligent, efficient design for a weapon in the 23rd century. 

Enter thermal clips and broken logic.

Using Bioware's own explaination, (which I don't intend to go over again) the function and purpose of thermal clips creates a device that ultimately should be unusable.  These heat sink devices that function as a (un-needed) solution for thermal magnetic heat transfer would be burning on the battlefield like hot coals!  You would see steam and vapor rising from them as they were ejected from weapons.  You would feel intense burning heat against your face as you approached them.   If you picked them up you would lose your fingers or your entire hand. 

So even if you could pick it up it would still be an absolute hazzard to place this white hot burning clip in your own weapon which is a micro mass accelerator containing ezo that produces dark matter energy.  LMAO!!

Death or Cake anyone?   And always remember...............the cake is a lie

I do agree that their lack of realism after ejection is odd, they are glowing white hot, they would start fires on just about anything they touch. However, the magnetic field you are talking about does not exist it's a Mass Effect field not magnetic, and since we do not know how the mass effect field deals with heat, the ME1 guns seem to be air-cooled or gas cooled, and would be dangerous for the user anyways, hot gas being vented near your hands and arms . The whole explination of heat build up in weapons has been woefully explained in my opinion, which is why most games use bullets still, or direct energy weapons. I think Halo's overheat system for the plasma guns works, and it makes sense that the hot gas wouldn't hurt you because you are in a freakin' armored suit that can survive reentry to a planet.

[Gatt9]

Ksandor wrote...

NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! No laser rifles please! ME franchise is original because very few scifi TV shows feature projectile weapons (like Battlestar Galactica remake). We have enough lasers and phasers between Star Trek and Star Wars . Particle beams yes, but lasers? Lasers are not energetic enough to be viable personal weapons anyway. Bioware you do not need to appeal very casual fan. Be specific, be distinct and differentiate. Create your own style. Mass Effec 3 is not a super supreme mixed pizza!

Technically speaking,  projectile weapons are a pretty big reach in a straight Sci-fi IP.  Any setting where Neutronium and FTL exists should be able to create armor strong enough to resist impacts and capable of absorbing force.  Especially in anything involving space combat,  as the downsides are so severe that they'd be replaced ASAP,  as the Citadel Marine illustrated.  Once you fire a projectile weapon,  someone somewhere is going to die.  Could be your wife on a shuttle.

Laser based,  Antimatter,  Plasma,  all bypass the issues caused by shields and materials that absorb kinetic impact.  They do their damage either through straight heat,  or particle annhilation,  making magnetic shields useless and neutronium much easier to penetrate.  Further,  they all lack the danger of a miss,  as they lose their potency significantly over time.  Either through dispertion,  cooling,  or collision with space dust.

Further,  projectile weaponry adds significantly to mass,  making FTL and Sub-FTL travel very significantly more energy expensive.  For a person,  it seriously limits combat effectiveness and can easily be movement impairing,  in contrast to energy based weaponry.

Any advanced society is highly likely to abandon projectile based weaponry in favor of energy based,  as the bow and arrow were abandoned. 

Additionally,  it's important to note:  Lasers can easily be sufficiently energetic enough if you can provide sufficient mobile power,  such as fusion cells or matter/antimatter cells.  We already have working laser based weaponry that can do significant damage at a distance,  the Navy tested one just a few weeks ago and posted the video of the results.

[AlexRmF]

Dave666 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

0) It's not that it's a problem in modern day shooters, because we all know modern day shooters operate just like modern weapons. We know todays weapons shoots bullets that you can only fire from "ammo".

1) But in ME1, they got rid of then need for bullets/ammo - so when they said, here you go, you now need bullets to fire your weapons - then that was the problem.

2) Yes, ME1 system was broken were they allowed you to create the no heat generation weapon (which was stupid as you are doing minimal damage to be able to do so... you must like playing ME2 with ONLY the starting weapons too)

3) THE FIX would have to tie together upgrades and cooling, so that non would over take the other, each "cooling" upgrade thus increase the damage equally so that heat/cooling is a constant value the entire game.
3a) [MY 'idea'], 99% heat to 0% heat = 2.5 seconds wait. "Over heat" is 4 seconds wait to 0% OR you may use a limited cooling sink that completes to 0% cooling in 1 second on activation.


(of course.. I would like to know if they ever thought of this method, implemented a test build and tested it as such.)

If you want a plot reson for the change, think of it this way. ME2 weopons have more damage than ME1, this means that the concosion force.....Meaning more heat is generated when firing ME2 weopons. With the weopon they had a limit on this because the gun would be useless if it's too hot to fire bullets due to not being able to ejecting the heat sink.....
The only thing that dosen't make sense is the whole power cell being used for regular gun ammo.

Erm...yeah...your plot reason?  Its complete BS.  ME:1's weapons were waaay more powerful than ME:2's weapons.  In ME:1 enemies had far more health and shields than in ME:2 and guns still mowed them down extremely fast.  If you tried using ME:2's weapons in ME:1 you'd run out of ammo very quickly.

I totally agree with Dave.
The impression that ME2's weapons are more powerful is given by the weird shields system which explode if you're hit 2 times with repeated fire, that didn't happen in ME1 and it also made overload and overheat powers useful if you were playing on higher dificulties. I don't hate the ME2 ammo system completly, but I like the one in ME1 more.
Now, I get the sense most of the people that support ME2's system haven't played ME1 on Hardocore or Insanity otherwise they knew ME2's sytem couldn't have worked in ME1... if you had limted ammo in ME1 you could only kill the first enemy and then go back for a reload (ammo reload that is) this also goes for ME1's ammo system in ME2, since you could fire at an enemy for a few seconds without any reload worries, making the game much easier.
I guess the ammo system is important when you also consider the other gameplay aspects.
what I really want to see gone is the ammo limit in ME2... keep the reload system, but let us have infinite ammo... this way an infiltrator can really use his sniper rifle on every ocasion.

[SalsaDMA]

Considering that both defense and weapon technology advanced in 2 years, what makes you think that ME2 weapons used in a ME1 enviroment are weaker than ME1 weapons used in a ME1 enviroment? If anything, the theoretical asumption would be that trying to use a ME1 weapon in ME2s enviroment would be like bringing a peashooter to a gunfight. It tickles, but it doesn't hurt...

[Asari Commando]

i personally loved the cd (cooldwn) for weapons, havnt played ME2 yet, i am currently finish up final playthru with ME1. it seems that the clips/amo would take away from the combat aspect of the game for me. at first i thought "no ammo thats weird?", but in the future it makes sense that we would use projectiles and have overheats, as oppose to loading clips of ammo all the time. also, with a heavy rpg like this we get enough menues and weapons to cycle thru, why add amo clips to the confusion, so players are scrambling thru shop/weapons to find more amo.

[Clonedzero]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Can someone please explain to me why everyone who "fired forever" seems to think they broke the game.

Sorry to tell you all, your fire-forever weapon simply sucked.

Its the only fault of ME1 weapons ive ever seen and its completely invalid.

they didnt break it in terms of balance so much, more so in the fact it stopped being fun.

all i did was put two scramrails and snowblind bullets on the super spectre assault rifle and it should shoot forever. i did that because it results in the best damage per bullet.

it wasnt that it was overpowered, it simply wasnt fun to use anymore is what "broke" it for me.