791 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

I hope they keep the option in to mod it the hybrid system.
I liked that well enough for ME2 and IMO it didn't impact on the balancing at all since there always was plenty of Thermals around anyway. The only thing I disliked about the hybrid mod was that it prevented you from reloading weapons when your clip isn't empty nd that it didn't work for DLC weapons. I doubt they'll change/fix that for ME3 since it seems they don't even intend to use the system but if they keep it in they way it is right now, I am happy enough.

[Jorina Leto]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Because ME1 was sooo good with its weapons that were identical to each other and never changed at all besides stats-based stuff.

Did I speak of this. No, this thread is about the sucking thermal clip ammo system.
The different weapons of ME2 could use the overheat cooldown system.

So where is your argument?

Someone With Mass wrote...
I can't care less if it's not true to the lore. I like it, and I prefer the way ME3 is going with.

You're not interested in lore and story? Go play Call of Duty.

Someone With Mass wrote...
Besides, adding a cooldown factor is just so unnecessary.

Why?

crackseed wrote...

To be honest, the immersion point that made the ME2 system better for me was having to have a break in firing with the cooling clips.

The thermal clips violate the lore on so many levels. The Hugo Gernsback Crew shouldn't use them. The Geth didn't use the in ME1.

crackseed wrote...
I'd almost argue that while ME1's system was broken.

Make the cooldown take longer and add a timer before it starts after the last using of the gun.
And the you just need to balance some mods and everything is fine.

[SalsaDMA]

AlexRmF wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Considering that both defense and weapon technology advanced in 2 years, what makes you think that ME2 weapons used in a ME1 enviroment are weaker than ME1 weapons used in a ME1 enviroment? If anything, the theoretical asumption would be that trying to use a ME1 weapon in ME2s enviroment would be like bringing a peashooter to a gunfight. It tickles, but it doesn't hurt...

the weapons in ME2 are weaker because they have an ammo limit  and you can't upgrade them, like you could upgrade those in ME1...so, if you bring a peashooter to a gunfight, you'd better make sure it has unlimited ammo 
as I said... this all comes down to all the other gameplay features and both systems are good for their respective gameplay mechanics. I like the ME1 approach better because I usually like unlimited things and I don't want to worry if I miss a few shots

2 things: Cover and recharging shields.

I'm sorry, but your peashooter ain't going to do you much good in an actual combat scenario if you are using 'endless ammo' peashooter that takes forever to actually do anything to you target, while the opponent is using a limited ammo weapon that tears through your defenses and splatters you on the ground if you take more than a few hits.

Given the gear that are standard issue in ME1 for N7 personal is quite literally crap (Onyx I armor and Hahne Kedar I assault rifle) Upgrading the standard issue gear to what it is in ME2 is quite a leap in power.

[Ahglock]

SalsaDMA wrote...

AlexRmF wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Considering that both defense and weapon technology advanced in 2 years, what makes you think that ME2 weapons used in a ME1 enviroment are weaker than ME1 weapons used in a ME1 enviroment? If anything, the theoretical asumption would be that trying to use a ME1 weapon in ME2s enviroment would be like bringing a peashooter to a gunfight. It tickles, but it doesn't hurt...

the weapons in ME2 are weaker because they have an ammo limit  and you can't upgrade them, like you could upgrade those in ME1...so, if you bring a peashooter to a gunfight, you'd better make sure it has unlimited ammo 
as I said... this all comes down to all the other gameplay features and both systems are good for their respective gameplay mechanics. I like the ME1 approach better because I usually like unlimited things and I don't want to worry if I miss a few shots

2 things: Cover and recharging shields.

I'm sorry, but your peashooter ain't going to do you much good in an actual combat scenario if you are using 'endless ammo' peashooter that takes forever to actually do anything to you target, while the opponent is using a limited ammo weapon that tears through your defenses and splatters you on the ground if you take more than a few hits.

Given the gear that are standard issue in ME1 for N7 personal is quite literally crap (Onyx I armor and Hahne Kedar I assault rifle) Upgrading the standard issue gear to what it is in ME2 is quite a leap in power.

Where does this weird idea that guns and armor from either game are more powerful come from.  They use different game systems, they can't be compared.  And it is not like it is in the codex that one gun is more powerful than the other. At most you get from ME2 is you can shoot faster so overall their is a gain, but it never implies each individual shot is more powerful, or the gun itself is more powerful.  

OT: I do find it  funny that the codex says a well trained soldier can swap a clip i less than a second and it takes Shepard with the reload trick 1.5 seconds to reload.  

[RolandX9]

Phaedon wrote...

Saying that the ME2 system is terrible is a bit silly if you ask me. 95% of all shooters use that system, so I suppose that you find them all terrible. Sorry, I can't help but frown at such extreme arguments.

Then get ready to frown, because I hardly ever play FPS games. Sure, I gave Doom a runthrough back in the day, and Red Steel 2 has some cool stuff (not to mention the swordplay, which makes the ammo limitations far less onerous), but the FPS franchise I've probably played the most is...Metroid. Which has few ammo limitations (and yes, I hated the light/dark ammo mechanic in MP2).

I'd be fine with a "thermal vent" system that mimics clips to replace the old regenerating heat mechanic; hard numbers are easier to deal with than the analog-ish meter from 1. Hunting for clips? No thank you. Not that it'll stop me from buying ME3, of course, but after that? Probably not going to care.

Now, if they fix cooldowns for talents/powers in 3, so biotic/tech users don't have to worry about running out of ammo...

Edit: just thought of a series I love that does have ammo limitations: Ratchet and Clank. In which you can buy ammo in most levels. And you have the flying wrench. And you practically trip over the stuff.  We'll see how ME3 handles it...

Modifié par RolandX9, 24 mai 2011 - 04:18 .

[CajNatalie]

Ahglock wrote...

Where does this weird idea that guns and armor from either game are more powerful come from.  They use different game systems, they can't be compared.  And it is not like it is in the codex that one gun is more powerful than the other. At most you get from ME2 is you can shoot faster so overall their is a gain, but it never implies each individual shot is more powerful, or the gun itself is more powerful. 

It's the only possible way to make sense of the fact that enemies and Shepard... especially Shepard... can die so easily... in Shepard's case, I'm guessing it's mostly down to worthless armor, though, as any HP upgrades are SKIN upgrades, emphasizing that the armor does nothing and the bullets are only being deflected by skin.
But the enemy mercs are still easy as hell to drop... as opposed to being variably armored sometimes taking a good work-over with your bullets to wittle their HP down as they did in ME1. Now they just drop the moment you aim at them, even on Insanity once protection is down.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 24 mai 2011 - 04:55 .

[Ahglock]

CajNatalie wrote...

It's the only possible way to make sense of the fact that enemies and Shepard... especially Shepard... can die so easily... in Shepard's case, I'm guessing it's mostly down to worthless armor, though, as any HP upgrades are SKIN upgrades, emphasizing that the armor does nothing and the bullets are only being deflected by skin.
But the enemy mercs are still easy as hell to drop... as opposed to being variably armored sometimes taking a good work-over with your bullets to wittle their HP down as they did in ME1. Now they just drop the moment you aim at them, even on Insanity, protections aside.

There is nothing to make sense of, it is just a different game system.  I feel no need to make crap up to shoehorn it into the exisiting lore.  

[Phaedon]

double post

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 mai 2011 - 05:21 .

[Phaedon]

You're not interested in lore and story? Go play Call of Duty.

I would mention that in all games since text adventures and MUDs, gameplay is more important, but this modification is so minor that I don't see what the fuss is all about. Oh and by the way, which Call of Duty are we talking about here? I am pretty sure that this series also includes some games that have been the favourite shooter experiences for millions.

Does this look "dumbed down" to you:


Cool.

Phaedon wrote...

I don't see why people won't accept clips, lore-wise.

1) "The galaxy can't have switched in 2,5 years!"
Wrong. Are today's PCs the same as the PCs we had 3 years ago?

2) "But that's completely different!"
Nope. The cheaper a technology gets, the more quickly it advances. On top of that, this is the biggest conflict since the Krogan Rebellions, and the codex states that weapon upgrades are cheap and weapons are easy to modify.

3) Heatsinks>Thermal Clips
They may sound good for slow-paced long ranged combat, but believe me, they are certain death for CQB with an AI. Not to mention, that heatsinks use the same concept as thermal clips, you have to replace those too, you just don't do it as often.

bioware-sucks wrote...
I can accept the arguments that game play is a bit more "strategic" but to argue this from a lore perspective is challenging.

The most important part of waging any war is supply lines. If you have two groups of 100 soldiers in a jungle and one group has ME style 1 type guns and the other has ME 2 type guns, who is going to win?

As long as the ME1 group doesn't get pulled into a trap of some kind the ME2 group will eventually run out of thermal clips and their guns will cease functioning. After this they will be easy prey for the ME1 group.

It is hard to imagine any sane military trading in their virtually unlimited ammo guns with overheat for ones that stop working after a few minutes of firing in the middle of combat. At most you each soldier would carry a mix of both kinds.

IMHO, a good move here would be to make pistols work like ME1 and other guns work like ME2

Very interesting username.

1) Your argument is invalid. Ammo will end for both in the same period of time. There is no heatsink that lasts forever, and believe me, if ME1's last for more than a mission, then that's what makes no sense. Plus, there's plenty of data to suggest that most missions in the 2180s are "hit and run" raids.

2) It is very hard for me to imagine, any kind of general who orders their troops in a CQB mission with overheating weapons. Unless he has some kind of obsession with suicide missions and canon fodders.

iakus wrote...
Of course, some people wait 5-6 years or more before getting new PCs 

But it's not the fact that people switched over in just a couple of years, it's that the changeover was so complete and total.  From the Citadel to the Quarian Flotilla, Tuchanka to Illium and every dirtbag merc base in between, all switched their weapons over in less than three years.  Every.  Single.  One.   In fact, the only possible explanation for the thorough saturation of thermal clips must be time travel, given where they turn up (Jacob's loyalty mission)

And that's leaving aside that all thermal clips seem to be compatable with all technoogy.  Doesn't matter if it's human, geth, or Collector weapons

Yep, so?
Not only is the market intergalactic, and the shipments arrive quicker (which also supports my argument), but as I have said, heatsinks=thermal clips, made of different kind of material. It makes perfect sense to have those above the Hugo Gernsback.

-
Really, I don't get the whole argument, ME2 has arguably much better gameplay partially because of this, and secondly, even if the lore argument is valid, with which I can spot many misconceptions and mistakes, it's just nitpicking. "ME1's codex entry said x, but ME2's says that they switched to y, yadda yadda"

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 mai 2011 - 05:24 .

[Someone With Mass]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Well, what good does the cooldown add?

Oh, yeah. Nothing.

And I never said that I'm not interested in the story, I just don't care if something as trivial as the ammo system is true to the lore. There's a difference.

But if you care about something that insignificant, that's good for you.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 24 mai 2011 - 05:32 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

@Ahglock

I get that you don't appreciate the IP's attention to detail with regards to aligning gameplay and lore, but you really can't prove others wrong by dismissing the importance of one of the series' trademarks.

Although, in regards to the power of the weapons in ME2, I agree; tuning enemy defenses so that we're not just sinking bullets into bullet sponges all the time is acceptable.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

@Someone With Mass

Same thing.

[Aurellia]

I still like my idea of make pistols use overheat and have unlimited ammo and you can mod to reduce but not eliminate the over heat. Make all the other weapons work ME2 style.

[Sgt Stryker]

Phaedon wrote...

Not only is the market intergalactic, and the shipments arrive quicker (which also supports my argument), but as I have said, heatsinks=thermal clips, made of different kind of material. It makes perfect sense to have those above the Hugo Gernsback.

-
Really, I don't get the whole argument, ME2 has arguably much better gameplay partially because of this, and secondly, even if the lore argument is valid, with which I can spot many misconceptions and mistakes, it's just nitpicking. "ME1's codex entry said x, but ME2's says that they switched to y, yadda yadda"

At this point, I think the best way to reconcile all the discrepancies is to say that what we see in gameplay does not necessarily translate exactly into "reality." It's more of an abstraction of sorts. Consider the galaxy map, where the Normandy can fly through stars without harm, space is 2D, and it only takes a few seconds of real time to traverse a star cluster. Does that mean all of this is true in the MEverse? No, of course not. Certain things must be simplified for the sake of gameplay. I sure as hell don't want to spend a day of real time flying in FTL, and I don't want to restart because I accidently flew too close to a sun.

Similarly, if you take a literal interpretation of the gameplay, you would conclude that heat sinks don't obey the Laws of Thermodynamics, the old weapon cooling and upgrade system completely ceased to exist in just 2 years, and Shepard's team is incompetent because they don't take enough spare thermal clips on missions and must rely on what enemies drop. All of that is, of course, nonsense.

Instead, I see the gameplay mechanic of picking up enemy drops as an abstraction for taking the time for partially-spent heat sinks to cool down, replacing used thermal clips for spares, and (occasionally) picking up enemy's spare clips, IF those enemies happen to use the new system. Again, this is all simplified into one system, because of game engine limitations.

I realize this takes a bit of mental gymnastics on the part of the player, but I think it's a much better solution that simply throwing out the lore. This isn't an ideal solution by any stretch of the imagination, but we're working with what BioWare gave us.

[Halo Quea]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...
ME1's reasoning was great, even if didn't fit the model for gunplay that you can find in eeeeeeeeevery damned shooter.   Weapons have a mass driver that magnetically suspends a precisely calculated and cut projectile from an ammo block that NEVER comes in contact with ANY internal parts.  Heat is dampened or mitigated by the mass driver's magnetic field the instant the weapon is fired, requiring only a brief cool down period.  Intelligent, efficient design for a weapon in the 23rd century. 

Enter thermal clips and broken logic.

Using Bioware's own explaination, (which I don't intend to go over again) the function and purpose of thermal clips creates a device that ultimately should be unusable.  These heat sink devices that function as a (un-needed) solution for thermal magnetic heat transfer would be burning on the battlefield like hot coals!  You would see steam and vapor rising from them as they were ejected from weapons.  You would feel intense burning heat against your face as you approached them.   If you picked them up you would lose your fingers or your entire hand. 

So even if you could pick it up it would still be an absolute hazzard to place this white hot burning clip in your own weapon which is a micro mass accelerator containing ezo that produces dark matter energy.  LMAO!!

I'm sorry, but you're incorrect in several areas here, both in terms of game lore and real science.

1) Even if the round does not come into direct contact with the gun itself, the round is accelerated to such a high speed that friction will heat up the surrounding atmosphere, which will in turn heat up the magnetic accelerator components. That heat must be transferred somewhere, or else the gun will start to malfunction. Which brings us to...
2) Heat management. You claim that the magnetic field somehow deals with heat. Unfortunately, the electromagnetic force just does not work that way. Magnetic fields can accelerate electrically charged objects, but they cannot be used to control the flow of heat.
3) In ME1, heat sinks already existed - they were just internal to a weapon and could not be removed in the field. The geth altered that design by introducing detachable heat sinks, and thermal clips that hold spare heat sinks.
4) Only spent heat sinks are red-hot. The thermal clips you pick up from dead enemies are spares, not spent ones.

Real science?  *sigh*   I'm not trying to invalidate anything that you're saying, but just so that we're sure we're both on the same page here, we're talking about a micro mass accelerator that has an imaginary element that produces dark energy at the core of it's mechanisms.  SO, we can't even have this imaginary dark energy field without the imaginary element.  Real science?  where? We're not even discussing theoreticals.

I'm not arguing science, I'm arguing the lore that Bioware created.  I mean that's what this whole debate is about.  In ME1 Bioware established it's lore behind the foundations of Ezo producing a mass field of dark energy that suspends and propels the projectile that's fired in all of it's weapons.  They established these mass effect field weapons as common technology, as easy to purchase as aluminum foil in your local supermarket today.

Can we accurately predict the effects of electromagnetism and heat that occur FROM dark energy derived FROM an imaginary element?  Not without making fools of ourselves. 

So we use the closest science (also what Bioware did) to measure the effects of heat transfer, dampening and/or  mitigation.  And based on the way weapons fired in ME1, what does that tell us?   That a weapon's internal mechanisms did indeed cool the firing chamber efficiently so that thousands to unlimited rounds (remember this is Bioware's language) could be fired without the weapon becoming damaged or warped by the effects of heat.

Again, going to that closest science and what we know about dark energy probably helped Bioware to fill in the imaginary gaps, holes, deadfalls..........lol whatever you want to call it.  First let me state that I know that I'm no particle theorist, and my knowledge on the subject is very limted.  Bioware doesn't take the time to explain the function either,  but let's say that for the sake of the lore they've created, Bioware adopted some known theories on dark energy.  It's an extremely powerful repulsive force, the Universe couldn't expand without it.  Dark energy isn't made up of particles, so it doesn't have a temperature.  It has no pressure, or rather it has negative pressure.  It has no electromagnetic interaction with ANYTHING.  I'm not prepared to say whether dark energy is negative energy or not, we simply don't have enough information.  But based on what we know, Bioware could (and they obviously did) draw a creative enough picture for dark energy and a micro mass accelerator generating a negative mass field.  

Ezo, the imaginary element in the ME universe gets thrown in as a solution for all  the unknowns (and unprovables) about dark energy, negative mass and dark matter etc etc.   It would have been far easier for Bioware to have adopted Negative Mass Neutrinos and Tachyons as their universe's key technological element, but......................it would have been faaaaaaaaaaaar less exotic than dark energy. 

Because of the basic properties and mechanisms provided for weapons in ME1, you now have a fire arm that you could almost fire forever.  Either way you choose to look at it, LORE ESTABLISHED.

And then came the thermal clips.  Unneeded, unnecessary.  Broken lore. 

Even if the weapons are more powerful ME2, you still have the basic mechanisms and properties of the existing mass effect field technology.  It's still based on the same dark energy field that has no electromagnetic interaction, no temperature, no pressure, and projectiles stiil being sliced, suspended and fired in the same precisely calculated manner.   

We know WHY the clips were introduced, but they still don't make sense.  And again, it's not needed, the existing technology was already sufficient.

[Jorina Leto]

Phaedon wrote...
I would mention that in all games since text adventures and MUDs, gameplay is more important.

Point for me. The ME1 Gameplay is more fun.

Phaedon wrote...
I am pretty sure that this series also includes some games that have been the favourite shooter experiences for millions.

The popularity of a game does not determinate it's quality.
Where's your argument?

Phaedon wrote...
Does this look "dumbed down" to you:


Cool.

I'm not going to judge a game by it's box art.

Phaedon wrote...
I don't see why people won't accept clips, lore-wise.

1) "The galaxy can't have switched in 2,5 years!"
Wrong. Are today's PCs the same as the PCs we had 3 years ago?

There are still some Win 95 PCs in use. So it's just logical to find some many old type weapons.

[Sgt Stryker]

Sure, I'll concede the point that we don't know how mass effect fields work, because element zero is fictitious. But, we do know how magnetic fields work, and they cannot be used for heat transfer. That's the "real science" I was talking about.

Furthermore, I suggest you re-read some of the Codex entries. The Mass Effect does not actually accelerate the round - all it does is alter the round's mass so that high velocities can be achieved, as well as mitigate recoil. The acceleration is achieved by the weapon's mass accelerator, which I would guess works on the same principle as modern railgun prototypes (magnetic acceleration). MEverse ships work on a similar principle: you cannot achieve FTL speeds without both an eezo core (to create a Mass Effect around the vessel), and a propulsion drive (to accelerate the ship). Both systems need to be present to reach FTL.

Lastly, heatsinks were present since ME1. It's just that back then, they were more analogous to the heat sink sitting next to your CPU and keeping it from melting down, rather than the bright-orange ejectable things we have in ME2.

[Phaedon]

Jorina Leto wrote...
Point for me. The ME1 Gameplay is more fun.

Opinions, I suppose. 

The popularity of a game does not determinate it's quality.
Where's your argument?

I'm not going to judge a game by it's box art.

So, you haven't played the COD games? At least not the first ones?


My argument is completely unrelated to this, actually. I just think that it annoys me how some people consider the COD series as mindless shooters.

There are still some Win 95 PCs in use. So it's just logical to find some many old type weapons.

It is illogical, however for:
1. Shepard to use them.
2. Major merc companies to not invest in them.
3. For Geth and the special forces of the Quarians to not be using the newer technolodgy.
4. Collectors use completely different technolodgy all together, if you need help suspending your disbelief, consider that the particle beams still emit heat, and that it is very likely that the geth copied the technolodgy from the Reapers, like many other things.

Plus, it's not a matter of old weapons.
It's a matter of weapons, using an old, yet replace-able component.

Modifié par Phaedon, 24 mai 2011 - 07:05 .

[Alpha-Centuri]

Might be a little off topic, but here goes. Why are there thermal clips on Jacob's loyalty mission?

[Phaedon]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Might be a little off topic, but here goes. Why are there thermal clips on Jacob's loyalty mission?

In my opinion, it's because the heatsinks are essentially the same thing as thermal clips, other than the fact that they are made of different materials.

[Bozorgmehr]

Jorina Leto wrote...

You're not interested in lore and story? Go play Call of Duty.

You play the game Mass Effect; playing a game - not reading a book or watching a movie - GAMEPLAY is everything, it's the core, the heart and soul of every game. Gameplay is infinitely more important than everything else. Lore and a story are there to SUPPORT gameplay not the other way around.

[kregano]

Alpha-Centuri wrote...

Might be a little off topic, but here goes. Why are there thermal clips on Jacob's loyalty mission?

Gameplay mechanic.

[jwalker]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
I would mention that in all games since text adventures and MUDs, gameplay is more important.

Point for me. The ME1 Gameplay is more fun.

That's your opinion.

For me, in terms of how much fun the gameplay is, ME2 >>>>>>> ME1

[Iakus]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

You're not interested in lore and story? Go play Call of Duty.

You play the game Mass Effect; playing a game - not reading a book or watching a movie - GAMEPLAY is everything, it's the core, the heart and soul of every game. Gameplay is infinitely more important than everything else. Lore and a story are there to SUPPORT gameplay not the other way around.

Then why even bother with allowing the importation of save files?  It's all just a game, right?  Like continuity matters!  Or creating a  universe with its own history and lore, populated by unique personalities?  Cerberus, the Alliance, the Citadel, Reapers, it's all just names!  What does that have to do with anything?  Or dialogue options, for that matter?   You've got the gameplay, you've got everything, right? 

[Yew Suck]

Heat Sinks... Thermal Clips... Ammo. Whatever you want to call it, it's not going anywhere. What's the point of discussing it? To contemplate to what if's? To yak about how it could've been introduced better? To compare weapon stats? For the pondering of originality vs functionality?

Sounds like a lot of coulda, woulda, shoulda, what if and how come. Who cares? I think people on either side of the debate should just get over it and just play the game.

Edit: For the record I'm not a clips fan. 

Modifié par Yew Suck, 24 mai 2011 - 07:59 .