791 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave666]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Dave666 wrote...


That argument works both ways though.

You're shooting your Revenant for 50 shots, 0 shots left. You catch a big Krogan charging at you at the corner of your screen. Under the ammo system, if you're not keeping track how many bullets you've been shooting, you have no idea if you'll have enough so you can shoot at the Krogan before it kills you. So now you're looking at an ammo count instead of looking at the Krogan. With an overheat, you make a habit of using some trigger discipline so that you are not caught on overheat, and don't have to scavenge for ammo regardless of how many shots you've fired and regardless how long ago that was. It's going to be infinite every time.

The Revy has 80 per clip.

Under the reload system, if I'm not keeping track of my ammo count, I'll shoot 30 then suffer a reload of 1.5 seconds. Under the cooldown system, I'll suffer a 3-4 sec overheat penality.

And after you've run out of ammo in this hypothetical situation and switched weapons?  The cooldown one is fully ready to be used again while the 'ammo' one is out of ammo and just a glorified club.

[Murmillos]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

I'd still take the weapon that has a cool down period. Because with charge, it also has a cool down period. So balancing the two together were the weapon is ready as soon as Charge is ready would be nothing really.

And many people have still advocated to still allow some sort of emergency limited capacity cool down clip (which allows for instant cool down) - which can be restocked from heavy weapon ammo boxes and weapon exchange stations.

A couple of problems with this. First, you're going to have to look at two cooldown bars, one to make sure Charge is ready while you're trying to outdamage the opponents, and another bar to make sure you don't 'shoot too much'. Have you played the Vanguard? The whole point of Charging is to go balls out with your weapon. You're contantly scanning 360 degrees looking for targets. As a player processing the environment, your health, your cooldown, you really think adding another meter to constantly monitor is going to improve the Vanguard's gameplay? Is it fun to watch more meters, or is it more fun to do the stuff that actually matters to combat? When you reload, it's a contant. It's predictable, when you press a button, takes exactly the same time to refresh your gun. And your guns shoots exactly the same amount of bullets everytime. That's something you can rely on. It becomes a natural extension of yourself. With another meter to watch, you're putting up an abstract interface that blocks people from being engaged to the environment.

Secondly, by 'tweaking' guns to work with Charge, you're basically saying that the cooldown system is influencing weapon design, which is exactly the problem I've mentioned before. Every gun you design is being influnced by the cooldown.

I've played twice as a Vangard, once on Instanity from a ME1 import.  I missed two upgrades so finished the game with only the 30% damage upgrade - and it was still not that hard. I modified the .ini so I could not reload - as my maximum carry amount was the max of the weapon, and the empty to full cool down period was 3.2 seconds (a bit slower then what I've been advocating). Used the M-22 Eviscerator 90% of the time. SMG to help on the YMIR mechs.
The game play was more fluid, my pacing was better, I died less, I learned to set up squad member bonus more. Took Energy Drain as my bonus talent.

Modifié par Murmillos, 29 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[Someone With Mass]

If it takes more than 50 bullets from the Revenant to kill a krogan, something is wrong with you, not the system. Just put on incendiary ammo, and shoot until he's dead, or smack him to death while he's reacting to the fire. Ta-daa. Simple.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Dave666 wrote...

And after you've run out of ammo in this hypothetical situation and switched weapons?  The cooldown one is fully ready to be used again while the 'ammo' one is out of ammo and just a glorified club.

And that's exactly the way it should be if you run out of ammo. With the Revy, You had 480 chances to make a move, and you didn't.

Murmillos wrote...

I've played twice as a Vangard, once on Instanity from a ME1 import.  I missed two upgrades so finished the game with only the 30% damage upgrade - and it was still not that hard. I modified the .ini so I could not reload - as my maximum carry amount was the max of the weapon, and the empty to full cool down period was 3.2 seconds (a bit slower then what I've been advocating). Used the M-22 Eviscerator 90% of the time. SMG to help on the YMIR mechs.
The game pay was more fluid, my pacing was better, I died less, I learned to set up squad member bonus more. Took Energy Drain as my bonus talent.

Question: Did you use the Claymore, and how was it? What was its fire rate, etc? Also, I heard that DLCs weapons had some kind problem with the hybrid system.

[Murmillos]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Murmillos wrote...
I've played twice as a Vangard, once on Instanity from a ME1 import.  I missed two upgrades so finished the game with only the 30% damage upgrade - and it was still not that hard. I modified the .ini so I could not reload - as my maximum carry amount was the max of the weapon, and the empty to full cool down period was 3.2 seconds (a bit slower then what I've been advocating). Used the M-22 Eviscerator 90% of the time. SMG to help on the YMIR mechs.
The game pay was more fluid, my pacing was better, I died less, I learned to set up squad member bonus more. Took Energy Drain as my bonus talent.

Question: Did you use the Claymore, and how was it? What was its fire rate, etc? Also, I heard that DLCs weapons had some kind problem with the hybrid system.

Never had an issue with the Eviscerator, Mattock nor Locust.

I didn't use the Claymore because that is a different beast all together. That may be the one weapon that doesn't work well for a heat management system (within the current limits of the ME2 .ini file; as the weapon cooling is a "global value"). Widow may still work because you have range as your defense (nor do I think it has the 'reload' trick).  But because the Claymore CQC weapon with a RoF of 40 (if you can't do the 'reload' trick) or about 120 (if you can), the only way to get the heat management Claymore to work close as to its current thermal clip brother, basicly allowed instant full ammo in all other weapons as soon as you let go of the trigger. Short of learning programing code and rewriting the game to accept new text values from the .ini, I was limited with what I could do.

In short, I could make its RoF similar to normal gameplay, but the cost of doing so did break every other weapon, even by my "cheating" standards.

Modifié par Murmillos, 29 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

Murmillos wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

I'd still take the weapon that has a cool down period. Because with charge, it also has a cool down period. So balancing the two together were the weapon is ready as soon as Charge is ready would be nothing really.

And many people have still advocated to still allow some sort of emergency limited capacity cool down clip (which allows for instant cool down) - which can be restocked from heavy weapon ammo boxes and weapon exchange stations.

A couple of problems with this. First, you're going to have to look at two cooldown bars, one to make sure Charge is ready while you're trying to outdamage the opponents, and another bar to make sure you don't 'shoot too much'. Have you played the Vanguard? The whole point of Charging is to go balls out with your weapon. You're contantly scanning 360 degrees looking for targets. As a player processing the environment, your health, your cooldown, you really think adding another meter to constantly monitor is going to improve the Vanguard's gameplay? Is it fun to watch more meters, or is it more fun to do the stuff that actually matters to combat? When you reload, it's a contant. It's predictable, when you press a button, takes exactly the same time to refresh your gun. And your guns shoots exactly the same amount of bullets everytime. That's something you can rely on. It becomes a natural extension of yourself. With another meter to watch, you're putting up an abstract interface that blocks people from being engaged to the environment.

Secondly, by 'tweaking' guns to work with Charge, you're basically saying that the cooldown system is influencing weapon design, which is exactly the problem I've mentioned before. Every gun you design is being influnced by the cooldown.

I've played twice as a Vangard, once on Instanity from a ME1 import.  I missed two upgrades so finished the game with only the 30% damage upgrade - and it was still not that hard. I modified the .ini so I could not reload - as my maximum carry amount was the max of the weapon, and the empty to full cool down period was 3.2 seconds (a bit slower then what I've been advocating). Used the M-22 Eviscerator 90% of the time. SMG to help on the YMIR mechs.
The game play was more fluid, my pacing was better, I died less, I learned to set up squad member bonus more. Took Energy Drain as my bonus talent.

Imagine that. When you cheat, it makes the game easier. Whoever could have guessed that would happen?

You know, I'm sick of having my shields go down. Maybe I should just tweak a config file to make that not happen, or I'm sick of my powers having cooldowns, maybe I should get rid of that, or, heck, I'm sick of having to fire more than one shot at any mob in the game, maybe I should find a tweak to make sure everything only has 1 health.

[Murmillos]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

Imagine that. When you cheat, it makes the game easier. Whoever could have guessed that would happen?

You know, I'm sick of having my shields go down. Maybe I should just tweak a config file to make that not happen, or I'm sick of my powers having cooldowns, maybe I should get rid of that, or, heck, I'm sick of having to fire more than one shot at any mob in the game, maybe I should find a tweak to make sure everything only has 1 health.

Please tell me in your infinite wisdom of trolling, how it was easier? I dare say you don't have a single damn clue in the world. I didn't even say that it was easier, I only stated that the pacing and flow of the game was better.

And quit your trolling garbage about wanting to making everything 1 health, or no cool down or what other retarded statement you may attempt to come up with.

Health, shields, cooldowns is not, nor never has been an issue, even on insanity. Quit trying to straw man the argument like a child and debate the topic at hand like an adult.

Modifié par Murmillos, 29 mai 2011 - 02:51 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...
Imagine that. When you cheat, it makes the game easier. Whoever could have guessed that would happen?

You know, I'm sick of having my shields go down. Maybe I should just tweak a config file to make that not happen, or I'm sick of my powers having cooldowns, maybe I should get rid of that, or, heck, I'm sick of having to fire more than one shot at any mob in the game, maybe I should find a tweak to make sure everything only has 1 health.

Why should it matter to you how other people play their game? Need I remind you that Mass Effect is a single-player only game, and "cheating" is completely irrelevant?

[Meshakhad2]

The ammo system in ME2 was fine. As the OP noted, it works in almost every other shooter. However, I actually LIKED the overheating mechanic, and thought it was innovative.

My idea would be a merger of the two. You would use thermal clips to extend the duration you could fire without worrying about overheating. Once you're out of thermal clips, back to overheating.

[lazuli]

Meshakhad2 wrote...

The ammo system in ME2 was fine. As the OP noted, it works in almost every other shooter. However, I actually LIKED the overheating mechanic, and thought it was innovative.

My idea would be a merger of the two. You would use thermal clips to extend the duration you could fire without worrying about overheating. Once you're out of thermal clips, back to overheating.

It is my understanding that a hybrid system was tested out during ME2's development, and was found unsatisfactory.  I can see such a system leading to inactivity and hoarding.

[Weiser_Cain]

I hoard now, saving ammo for my preferred weapon, not to mention all the times I died rather than use the heavy weapon.

[lazuli]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I hoard now, saving ammo for my preferred weapon, not to mention all the times I died rather than use the heavy weapon.

That might be a topic for another thread.  If heavy weapons are supposed to be emergency life-saver items, then why do they take so long to use?  You can't very well save yourself with a heavy weapon in a pinch as swapping to it takes precious seconds, not to mention the time it takes to charge up a shot on several of them.

[tjzsf]

Where are some of you getting this notion that there's "effectively always enough ammo" in ME2? My Infiltrator with a Carnifex and a Widow (or a Mantis, assuming I don't have the Widow yet). I have had on more than one occasion run out for the sniper rifle and had to fall back on the pistol and at times the SMG. This happens usually on areas with respawning enemies, but also sometimes on areas where the sum total of enemies don't drop enough ammo for the amount it takes to kill them.

By definition, this means there is not "effectively enough ammo". Unless your ammo was pooled as the fluff suggests, but gameplay-wise that is not the case.

There is supposed to be an advancement in technology, yet my older guns are far superior strategically than my new advanced guns.

[tjzsf]

Proposition: your current thermal clip would regenerate ammo if you don't fire it for a while, but as soon as you hit the 0 mark you would switch to a new clip. If it is your last clip, then the ME1-esque overheating happens. There. Now we have some degree of regenerating ammo for the people who want it, avoidance of the waiting for cooldown and all the fun of scrounging the battlefield for glowing sticks for the people who want that, and best of all it's actually a legit improvement to both ME1 and 2's systems, instead of something that the writers have to handwave by "reintroducing the need to reload is more advanced technology!"

[lazuli]

tjzsf wrote...

Proposition: your current thermal clip would regenerate ammo if you don't fire it for a while, but as soon as you hit the 0 mark you would switch to a new clip. If it is your last clip, then the ME1-esque overheating happens. There. Now we have some degree of regenerating ammo for the people who want it, avoidance of the waiting for cooldown and all the fun of scrounging the battlefield for glowing sticks for the people who want that, and best of all it's actually a legit improvement to both ME1 and 2's systems, instead of something that the writers have to handwave by "reintroducing the need to reload is more advanced technology!"

I don't know that I like the idea of rewarding players for sitting still and not using their weapons.  I understand a little downtime here and there, like with the cooldown before shields and life regenerate.  But I would much rather have the game reward aggressive play than cowering behind cover, waiting for ammo to replenish.

[Weiser_Cain]

Or you know, paying attention to physics. If they are heat sinks and not ammo then clips should cool.

[BlackwaterUp]

Ah yes, "Ammo" the apparently easy to find option instead of thermal clips, we have dismissed that claim.

[SalsaDMA]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I hoard now, saving ammo for my preferred weapon, not to mention all the times I died rather than use the heavy weapon.

I never had an issue with ammo in ME2 for regular weapons.

The heavy weapons, though, I only used for specific boss-like fights precisely because of the scarce ammo for them.

Hopefully this will be remedied in ME3 so we might actually have more incentive to start using them against 'regular' troops as well.

[Bozorgmehr]

JKoopman wrote...

Or maybe (and this is a revolutionary concept) rather than basing your weapon selection on what currently has more ammo and only thinking ahead to how much ammo you may or may not potentially have for said weapons if a boss is encountered...you based your weapon selections on what weapon does the job better for the given situation (crazy, I know)?

What do weapons, who are better at a specific job, have to do with ammo? Are you saying an ammo system by definition changes every weapon into a generic one?

Every time I see someone complain about how cooldowns meant that they could "pin down their trigger and fire forever", what they're really complaining about was the Frictionless Materials mod. For the umpteenth time, Frictionless Materials was an UNBALANCED and OVERPOWERED mod. It WAS NOT, however, indicative of the cooldown mechanic as a whole. Until you got that mod, ME1's overheating system made it impossible to "fire forever" as so many people decry. At best, without some sort of heat disipation mod, even the high-level Spectre weapons could only fire in 3-5 second bursts before overheating alarms would start blaring.

What the hell do cooldowns have to do with ammo? A weapon with a 100 shots ammo supply can function with a heat-cooldown system - that is, again, completely irrelevant. What do mods have to do with ammo? What do ME1 and ME2 have to with ammo? What does burst fire has to do with ammo?

All BioWare had to do was balance or remove Frictionless Materials and ME1's cooldown mechanic would've worked just as well as any traditional ammo mechanic. And it CERTAINLY would've been preferable to the thermal clip scavenger hunt that we're forced to engage in after every battle in ME2 (and now apparently ME3 as well).

Ammo is a resource which has limited availability; unlimited ammo isn't a resource. It's the same thing as unlimited funds; if you can buy everything, why bother adding shops and loot - it's only a waste of space and time if anyone can buy all gear immediately anyway.

What is so hard to grasp about this concept?

Do you understand the concept of ammo and heavy weapons in ME2? If so, explain what makes ME2's HW different compared to other weapons. They're all devices shooting projectiles at the enemy - HW are just like all the (normal) weapons; ammo can be used to add some weapons which are more powerful than others, but with limited ammo so they cannot be used 24/7 (=balance).

Your "what weapon does the job better for the given situation (crazy, I know)" argument - which has nothing to do with ammo - effectively kills heavy pistols and SMGs; why would anyone bother taking those if you can use better equipment (shotgun, sniper- and assault rifle). Unlimited ammo destroys balance completely, which results in everyone using the exact same weapon(s) - simply because they inflict the highest damage (in any given situation).

In case you've missed it; in ME3 we can pick up any weapon dropped by enemies - why bother adding this if no one's ever going to pick up a weapon? The only reason to get a new weapon (with unlimited ammo) is when (dropped) weapon is more powerful than the one you're currently using.

A quick roundup: Unlimited ammo will; be the end of small arms, no more heavy weapons, weapon drops can be removed completely; resulting in everybody using the exact same SR, SG and AR. So all BW has to do is add 3 SPECTRE weapons - everything else is a waste of time. Sounds good, doesn't it?

Lastly, ammo-scavenging has also nothing to do with ammo-limitations; you can completely remove clips/ammo from the game world (so there is nothing to scavenge). You start a mission and have equipped the Widow, which has X rounds you can use throughout the missions. Every time you start a new mission, you start fully loaded again. Because you cannot use the Widow all the time forces player to take note of their other weapons, it gives purpose to weapons dropped by enemies > an empty Widow is useless, picking up something else makes sense. Do I have to explain that a Widow with unlimited ammo doesn't demands any consideration regarding additional weaponry and/or dropped weapons?

99.9999 % of all games that use equipment that shoots, fires, hurls, throws, ... projectiles to enemies use ammo - this includes shooters, strategy games, rpgs, action, adventure games. Why do they all have ammo? Because it's a 'bad' system? Putting limitations on ammo, medkits, buffs, poisons, potions, bombs, grenades, drugs, arrows, money, goods, resources, etc etc makes those things interesting; having an unlimited supply doesn't > it's usually considered cheating instead.

[DieBySword]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

Or maybe (and this is a revolutionary concept) rather than basing your weapon selection on what currently has more ammo and only thinking ahead to how much ammo you may or may not potentially have for said weapons if a boss is encountered...you based your weapon selections on what weapon does the job better for the given situation (crazy, I know)?

What do weapons, who are better at a specific job, have to do with ammo? Are you saying an ammo system by definition changes every weapon into a generic one?

Weapons that do the job better have less ammo than the ones that arent that good for the job but have a lot od ammo and thats not the diference in types its the difference in the same weapon type. Choosing a moderate gun with a lot of ammo or a mattock with the puch but very little ammo is the problem for some. Yet this is a problematic thing because some ppl have problems with shooting and they are limited to weapons with big ammo counter while those who play well just choose the hard hitteres because for them ammo limits are non existent.

I can use only the mattock and kill everyone beofre my ammo drops to zero, some segments just trust 2-3 baddys at you so you allways full on ammo and when there are the wave enemies you can easily kill one wave and restock before the second wave comes.

Every time I see someone complain about how cooldowns meant that they could "pin down their trigger and fire forever", what they're really complaining about was the Frictionless Materials mod. For the umpteenth time, Frictionless Materials was an UNBALANCED and OVERPOWERED mod. It WAS NOT, however, indicative of the cooldown mechanic as a whole. Until you got that mod, ME1's overheating system made it impossible to "fire forever" as so many people decry. At best, without some sort of heat disipation mod, even the high-level Spectre weapons could only fire in 3-5 second bursts before overheating alarms would start blaring.

What the hell do cooldowns have to do with ammo? A weapon with a 100 shots ammo supply can function with a heat-cooldown system - that is, again, completely irrelevant. What do mods have to do with ammo? What do ME1 and ME2 have to with ammo? What does burst fire has to do with ammo?

What does this answer have to do with the quote man. He`s stating the fact ammo clips and oveheat mechanics are working the same way in both games.

All BioWare had to do was balance or remove Frictionless Materials and ME1's cooldown mechanic would've worked just as well as any traditional ammo mechanic. And it CERTAINLY would've been preferable to the thermal clip scavenger hunt that we're forced to engage in after every battle in ME2 (and now apparently ME3 as well).

Ammo is a resource which has limited availability; unlimited ammo isn't a resource. It's the same thing as unlimited funds; if you can buy everything, why bother adding shops and loot - it's only a waste of space and time if anyone can buy all gear immediately anyway.

What is so hard to grasp about this concept?

Ammo in an unlimited resource in ME universe (ME1&2 ) your concept just fell apart. Thermal Clips want to be a "limited" resource based on gameplay mechanics. Still you are never left with a zero counter for your gun because TC are unlimited, everyone in the game has unlimited "ammo" even you. What only shepard has is a gimmick of "limited ammo" to make you go out off cover but it dosnt work that good anyway.

What the problem here is you are saying a non-factor ammo game mechanic is the same as high-factor fund mechanic. While ammo is not a problem to come by and it has no impact on the game the funds have impact because they will make your guns have more damage, make your char more resistent, have an impact on the outcome of the SM.

Do you understand the concept of ammo and heavy weapons in ME2? If so, explain what makes ME2's HW different compared to other weapons. They're all devices shooting projectiles at the enemy - HW are just like all the (normal) weapons; ammo can be used to add some weapons which are more powerful than others, but with limited ammo so they cannot be used 24/7 (=balance).

Like I said in another post HW were made with limited ammo from the start and they were new to ME2 so the ammo worked for them. Neitherless they would still work the same way with an overheat mechanic special for they`re class.

Your "what weapon does the job better for the given situation (crazy, I know)" argument - which has nothing to do with ammo - effectively kills heavy pistols and SMGs; why would anyone bother taking those if you can use better equipment (shotgun, sniper- and assault rifle). Unlimited ammo destroys balance completely, which results in everyone using the exact same weapon(s) - simply because they inflict the highest damage (in any given situation).

You just answered yourself - noone gonna bother taking those in ME3 because we will be able too choose what weapon to have on squadies while in ME2 you are restricted to a weapon type and you have to take that pistol or smg with you and any shepard has to have the HW on them.

In case you've missed it; in ME3 we can pick up any weapon dropped by enemies - why bother adding this if no one's ever going to pick up a weapon? The only reason to get a new weapon (with unlimited ammo) is when (dropped) weapon is more powerful than the one you're currently using.

We dont know what they ment by "pick up any weapon dropped by enemies" and how it will affect us so its got no place in this discussion.

A quick roundup: Unlimited ammo will; be the end of small arms, no more heavy weapons, weapon drops can be removed completely; resulting in everybody using the exact same SR, SG and AR. So all BW has to do is add 3 SPECTRE weapons - everything else is a waste of time. Sounds good, doesn't it?

ME3 weapons selection will be the end of small arms, HW will still be there becasue they have the insane damage noone gonna pass out on, weapons drops will do the same thing they did in ME2 they gonna give better research options (or was it ammo drops you wanted to say ) Everyone using the Mattock in ME2 because its OP and this wont change, we will use the gun that is best for us to use. 

The 4 AR guns we had in Me2 (without DLC) were aquired during our gameplay so you never had the revenant or the best AR on your first mission on your first playthrough so you upgraded everytime you got a stronger weapons. After you have all the best weapons your gonna logicaly choose the best one for yourself anyway.

Lastly, ammo-scavenging has also nothing to do with ammo-limitations; you can completely remove clips/ammo from the game world (so there is nothing to scavenge). You start a mission and have equipped the Widow, which has X rounds you can use throughout the missions. Every time you start a new mission, you start fully loaded again. Because you cannot use the Widow all the time forces player to take note of their other weapons, it gives purpose to weapons dropped by enemies > an empty Widow is useless, picking up something else makes sense. Do I have to explain that a Widow with unlimited ammo doesn't demands any consideration regarding additional weaponry and/or dropped weapons?

There is never a mission where you go and after 10% of it have zero "ammo" for your gun and can never use it again on that mission. What you propose does add nothing new, well it cripples the system even more.

99.9999 % of all games that use equipment that shoots, fires, hurls, throws, ... projectiles to enemies use ammo - this includes shooters, strategy games, rpgs, action, adventure games. Why do they all have ammo? Because it's a 'bad' system? Putting limitations on ammo, medkits, buffs, poisons, potions, bombs, grenades, drugs, arrows, money, goods, resources, etc etc makes those things interesting; having an unlimited supply doesn't > it's usually considered cheating instead.

Ammo is ammo, a fire mod is a mod no matter if its a mod on the ammo or a mod on the gun itself the same way ammo powers are just a mod but used from the power UI. Taking Granades for example in ME1 they
were limied in ME2 they are unlimited power with a cooldown and yet nothing changed about them except limiting them to a character other than shepard (if you dont choose it as an extra power)

Modifié par DieBySword, 29 mai 2011 - 01:08 .

[Bozorgmehr]

DieBySword wrote...

Weapons that do the job better have less ammo than the ones that arent that good for the job but have a lot od ammo and thats not the diference in types its the difference in the same weapon type. Choosing a moderate gun with a lot of ammo or a mattock with the puch but very little ammo is the problem for some. Yet this is a problematic thing because some ppl have problems with shooting and they are limited to weapons with big ammo counter while those who play well just choose the hard hitteres because for them ammo limits are non existent.

I can use only the mattock and kill everyone beofre my ammo drops to zero, some segments just trust 2-3 baddys at you so you allways full on ammo and when there are the wave enemies you can easily kill one wave and restock before the second wave comes.

You're talking about skill and difficulty - it has nothing to do with (un)limited ammo.

What does this answer have to do with the quote man. He`s stating the fact ammo clips and oveheat mechanics are working the same way in both games.

What do clips and overheat mechanics have to do with having limited or unlimited ammo? Nothing.

Ammo in an unlimited resource in ME universe (ME1&2 ) your concept just fell apart. Thermal Clips want to be a "limited" resource based on gameplay mechanics. Still you are never left with a zero counter for your gun because TC are unlimited, everyone in the game has unlimited "ammo" even you. What only shepard has is a gimmick of "limited ammo" to make you go out off cover but it dosnt work that good anyway.

What the problem here is you are saying a non-factor ammo game mechanic is the same as high-factor fund mechanic. While ammo is not a problem to come by and it has no impact on the game the funds have impact because they will make your guns have more damage, make your char more resistent, have an impact on the outcome of the SM.

Again you completely fail to understand the difference between a concept and how it's implemented in ME.

IT IS COMPLETEY IRRELEVANT TO THE PROPOSITION OF HAVING LIMITED OR UNLIMITED AMMO.

Like I said in another post HW were made with limited ammo from the start and they were new to ME2 so the ammo worked for them. Neitherless they would still work the same way with an overheat mechanic special for they`re class.

What the heck does "they were made limited from the start" has to do with anything? The LIMITED ammo didn't worked for them because they are new weapons, the LIMITED ammo is the only way to make such weapons work in the first place. With UNLIMITED ammo there wouldn't be heavy weapons in ME2 at all.

You just answered yourself - noone gonna bother taking those in ME3 because we will be able too choose what weapon to have on squadies while in ME2 you are restricted to a weapon type and you have to take that pistol or smg with you and any shepard has to have the HW on them.

So you think it's a good thing to remove 60% of all weapons? Having fewer weapons makes 'better' games?

We dont know what they ment by "pick up any weapon dropped by enemies" and how it will affect us so its got no place in this discussion.

Well, I think we can assume those weapons are there to be used; or do you think they're put in ME3 to collect and display in Shep's cabin on the Normandy?

Unlike everything you've thrown into the mix - which has nothing to do (un)limited ammo - picking up weapons has everything to do with (un)limited ammo. If your weapon runs out of ammo, you can chose to keep it (useless) or pickup something else (useful) - with unlimited ammo you never have to make such a call.

Ammo is ammo, a fire mod is a mod no matter if its a mod on the ammo or a mod on the gun itself the same way ammo powers are just a mod but used from the power UI. Taking Granades for example in ME1 they
were limied in ME2 they are unlimited power with a cooldown and yet nothing changed about them except limiting them to a character other than shepard (if you dont choose it as an extra power)

You're a hopeless case, "ammo is ammo" or "a mod is a mod" - what do you expect me to say about something like this? How many times do I have to repeat that (un)limited ammo has nothing to do with Mass Effect.

Cooldowns have nothing to do with limitations on ammo; Medkits are on cooldown AND come in limited supply in ME2 - does that bother you?

[tjzsf]

lazuli wrote...
I don't know that I like the idea of rewarding players for sitting still and not using their weapons.  I understand a little downtime here and there, like with the cooldown before shields and life regenerate.  But I would much rather have the game reward aggressive play than cowering behind cover, waiting for ammo to replenish.

It's not so much rewarding players for doing that as not punishing them for it. If you are less patient or just like playing aggressively, you can still do it and pick up clips afterwards. This just removes the part where if you have a horrid string of misaccuracy or if you run out for you pre-shotgun-rounds-upgrade Claymore or for your Widow, you can still keep using it, but at a reduced rate of fire to avoid the overheating.

Plus, IRL sitting still and not charging is a pretty good idea, provided you have squadmates making sure you're not getting flanked.

[onelifecrisis]

I don't mind having to press a button to reload, but gathering clips is not fun and breaks immersion. Why is Shepard the only person in the galaxy who has a limited supply of clips? Why do collectors and husks and even varren drop clips? If clips are universal, how come I can't use my SMG ammo in my sniper rifle? All of these problems could be solved by just making it so that Shepard has an unlimited supply of clips.

[DieBySword]

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...

[quote]DieBySword wrote...

Weapons that do the job better have less ammo than the ones that arent that good for the job but have a lot od ammo and thats not the diference in types its the difference in the same weapon type. Choosing a moderate gun with a lot of ammo or a mattock with the puch but very little ammo is the problem for some. Yet this is a problematic thing because some ppl have problems with shooting and they are limited to weapons with big ammo counter while those who play well just choose the hard hitteres because for them ammo limits are non existent.

I can use only the mattock and kill everyone beofre my ammo drops to zero, some segments just trust 2-3 baddys at you so you allways full on ammo and when there are the wave enemies you can easily kill one wave and restock before the second wave comes.[/quote]

You're talking about skill and difficulty - it has nothing to do with (un)limited ammo.[/quote]

Im talking about weapon choosing not difficulty. Im playing insanity and the "ammo" drops are the same as on casual so "You're talking about skill and difficulty" is wrong.

And yes it has nothing to do with (un)limited ammo the same way as your answer to the quote i quoted didnt have either. The orginal quote that we both replied too wasnt about ammo in the first place.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
[quote]
What does this answer have to do with the quote man. He`s stating the fact ammo clips and oveheat mechanics are working the same way in both games.[/quote]

What do clips and overheat mechanics have to do with having limited or unlimited ammo? Nothing.[/quote]

Again, what does your answer have too do with the quote in the first place ? Nothing. Its not about ammo its about overheating conept working the same as a ammo clip conept, there is nothing here about having limited or unlimited ammo.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
[quote]
Ammo in an unlimited resource in ME universe (ME1&2 ) your concept just fell apart. Thermal Clips want to be a "limited" resource based on gameplay mechanics. Still you are never left with a zero counter for your gun because TC are unlimited, everyone in the game has unlimited "ammo" even you. What only shepard has is a gimmick of "limited ammo" to make you go out off cover but it dosnt work that good anyway.

What the problem here is you are saying a non-factor ammo game mechanic is the same as high-factor fund mechanic. While ammo is not a problem to come by and it has no impact on the game the funds have impact because they will make your guns have more damage, make your char more resistent, have an impact on the outcome of the SM.[/quote]

Again you completely fail to understand the difference between a concept and how it's implemented in ME.

IT IS COMPLETEY IRRELEVANT TO THE PROPOSITION OF HAVING LIMITED OR UNLIMITED AMMO.[/quote]

Once again you completely fail to understand the difference about what you were talking orginaly let me quote you: "Ammo is a resource which has limited availability; unlimited ammo isn't a resource. "

Codex says ammo is stored as a block in the gun both games have unlimited ammo where in ME1 gun ovehrated and in ME2 we change a thermal clip to went the heat. Just because termal clips behave like ammo gameplay wise its not ammo its heat sink that can remove heat and be ejected and your collecting TC that have a certain number of "ammo" count in them and not actual ammo.

The second part of "IT IS COMPLETEY IRRELEVANT TO THE PROPOSITION OF HAVING LIMITED OR UNLIMITED AMMO." is true its is irrelevant because its got nothing to do with the ammo, where did it say its about the ammo your reading it wrong or twisitng it,

This answer was orginaly about the stupidnes of saying unlimited ammo and unlimited money are the same thing and have the same impact on the game.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
[quote]
Like I said in another post HW were made with limited ammo from the start and they were new to ME2 so the ammo worked for them. Neitherless they would still work the same way with an overheat mechanic special for they`re class.[/quote]

What the heck does "they were made limited from the start" has to do with anything? The LIMITED ammo didn't worked for them because they are new weapons, the LIMITED ammo is the only way to make such weapons work in the first place. With UNLIMITED ammo there wouldn't be heavy weapons in ME2 at all. [/quote]

There were no HW guns in Me1 so limiting them with ammo because they were so powerfull in ME2 was what the designeres decided for them from the start and everyone was fine with because they were to be used rarely and because we didnt have them in the first game so noone argued with it.

Yet the game could easily make HW work with the unlimited ammo gameplay mechanics if they wanted. Im not saying its the way it should be, im content with the ammo system. Im only saying it is a fact it is possible to implement, why you try so hard to say its impossible and we both know nothing is imposible.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
[quote]
You just answered yourself - noone gonna bother taking those in ME3 because we will be able too choose what weapon to have on squadies while in ME2 you are restricted to a weapon type and you have to take that pistol or smg with you and any shepard has to have the HW on them.[/quote]

So you think it's a good thing to remove 60% of all weapons? Having fewer weapons makes 'better' games?[/quote]

Im not saying that, im stating a fact that is quoted by a dev. ME3 will have us choosing weapons types for different members so its possible some ppl will only play AR,sniper on they`re team and a weapon like SMG might be droped because of all players having an AR too choose.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
[quote]
We dont know what they ment by "pick up any weapon dropped by enemies" and how it will affect us so its got no place in this discussion.[/quote]

Well, I think we can assume those weapons are there to be used; or do you think they're put in ME3 to collect and display in Shep's cabin on the Normandy?

Unlike everything you've thrown into the mix - which has nothing to do (un)limited ammo - picking up weapons has everything to do with (un)limited ammo. If your weapon runs out of ammo, you can chose to keep it (useless) or pickup something else (useful) - with unlimited ammo you never have to make such a call.[/quote]

Why do you say "you've thrown into the mix - which has nothing to do (un)limited ammo" No i didnt, I just answered to your quotes that had nothing to do with (un)limited ammo in the first place. Your are the one who done that so pls dont twist reality.

[quote]Bozorgmehr wrote...
[quote]
Ammo is ammo, a fire mod is a mod no matter if its a mod on the ammo or a mod on the gun itself the same way ammo powers are just a mod but used from the power UI. Taking Granades for example in ME1 they
were limied in ME2 they are unlimited power with a cooldown and yet nothing changed about them except limiting them to a character other than shepard (if you dont choose it as an extra power)[/quote]

You're a hopeless case, "ammo is ammo" or "a mod is a mod" - what do you expect me to say about something like this? How many times do I have to repeat that (un)limited ammo has nothing to do with Mass Effect.

Cooldowns have nothing to do with limitations on ammo; Medkits are on cooldown AND come in limited supply in ME2 - does that bother you?
[/quote]

"what do you expect me to say about something like this?" Exactly the same to you, why do you throw in the (un)limited ammo bs when all the things I said were not connected to it, they were answeres to you who stated something not connected to (un)limited ammo either. We both didnt use the (un)limited ammo bs in our replys yet you go about it like I do. Maybe you were thinking about someone else when quoting me

[Homebound]

i thought it woundve been better if after ur weapon runs out of ammo, it overheats and when it cools down u have ammo again.