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[Praetor Knight]

Thermal Clips!





Seriously though, there are some things that can be done to provide the player with some opportunities to manually reload without being forced to solely scavenge for more Thermal Clips. I've tried a few ideas out myself, from having a reset after combat, to a speedload idea during combat.

And at any rate here's a relevant quote below.


“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.”

[Babli]

What can I say? I am dissapointed by this. But I expected it.

I just wish that they gave us a choice between ammo and non-ammo weapons.

And stopped pretending that clips are not ammo.

[Aumata]

RainyDayLover wrote...

Wait, are you guys really surprised? I had always assumed ME3 was going to stick with the thermal clips and that it wasn't going back to ME1's broken shooting mechanics.

I think people were hoping for a hybrid version instead of strictly thermal clips.  At least I was hoping for it.

[CroGamer002]

meteor0L wrote...

which shooter that was released in the last 5-7 years (and didnt cost 3$ on release) doesn't use hitboxes?

It's not they didn't use hitboxes, but more they had poor hit detection and people really didn't like it.

i played gow... when i mean gears of war style i mean : you enter a room , first thing you see is : waist high cover all over the place. (this was only referred to the fights beeing much more focused on taking cover behind waist high objects).

That's like every modern TPS.
Only in GoW you ONLY do that.

In ME2 is very different story, even with Soldier class.

Hell, in ME2 you don't even have to go to cover. Check on Youtube "Vanguard Insanity no cover".

what i basically wanted to say was: if me1 was 50% shooter , 50% rpg it turned to 70/30 in me2. (i went over the top saying me1 was NO shooter, it was just less of a shooter). i believe ( I DO NOT KNOW) that many of the people who didnt like the change in the ammo system, dont like the fact that me2 turned more into a shooter.

Well shooting mechanic sucked in ME1 while RPG mechanics aren't much better either.

So Bioware improved shooting in ME2, which is now good, and either fixed or removed RPG mechanics that didn't work.

True, ME2 is more of a shooter then RPG, but both shooter and RPG elements are FAR superior then in ME1.

[CroGamer002]

Aumata wrote...

RainyDayLover wrote...

Wait, are you guys really surprised? I had always assumed ME3 was going to stick with the thermal clips and that it wasn't going back to ME1's broken shooting mechanics.

I think people were hoping for a hybrid version instead of strictly thermal clips.  At least I was hoping for it.

Well there is hybrid in ME2, if you mod it.

And now what something? It sucks. Even more then ME1 system.

[CroGamer002]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

So basically ME3 is a big beta test for biowares upcoming shot at a shooter

Isn't ME2 big beta for ME3?

And why would Bioware go and start making shooters?
EA already has DICE and Respawn Entertainment.

[Captain Kibosh]

My theory about Bioware's decision to stick with thermal clips: game play TRUMPS considerations of established narrative lore and perceived tactical viability.

It seems at least for some die hard fans, the objection to the ME2 thermal clips boils down (pun intended) to two essential problems: the concepts of thermal clips allegedly chafes against the established Mass Effect munitions lore AND it chafes against most people's sense that there is an inherent tactical advantage to having a "cooldown period" versus what operationally amounts to ammo clips.

In terms of the ME lore, it was a pretty creative take on gun ammunition to have what essentially amounted to unlimited ammunition: a block of material from which your fire arms would scrape off micro bullets.  The only limitation to the unlimited ammo was the fact that firing so many bullets would overheat the gun in question, thus requiring a cooldown period for the gun to fire again.  (I notice some folks have been calling this system "regenerative ammo" which is technically incorrect, the ammo CAN run out and it exists in a finite amount, it's the cooling period that allows the gun to fire again).  This concept then locked in with some gameplayers belief that there was an inherent tactical advantage to not ever having to worry about ammo clips again.

I'm not saying anything new here, but what I don't think has been mentioned is about WHY the game developers might have seen the use of clips as preferable in terms of game play (if not narrative lore or tactics):

• A cooldown period disrupts the emotional pacing of combat, i.e., in ME1, you can hide behind cover waiting for your gun to work again; in ME2, you get to reload fairly quickly to resume combat or you are forced to run out from cover to find some additional thermal clips lying around (yes yes, I know tactically it's absurd to have to be running around the field of combat to find clips to make your gun fire again, but in terms of game play, it sure does gets you to move your lolligaggin' butt!)
•  Game play is about including a system of rewards, part of enforcing that is simply a matter of Pavlov's response (you hear that satisfying "k-chlik" of your thermal clip and you know your good to blow away some baddies); think of a Vegas slot machine which clanks out its coins in payouts--same concept--you hear that noise as a reinforcement and it makes you want to play it more; RPGs are all about those little moments of insidious positive enforcement for gathering and collecting (whetehr it be stats, upgrades, medigels, and yes, even thermal clips, etc.)
• Given BioWare's stated goal of streamlining combat to make it more accessible to more game players, providing a familiar gun play element for all those neanderthalic first or third person shooter players out there offers a point of entry for them (I'll leave the debate for whether or not they should to other threads on this forum)

Finally, if anyone is looking for an explanation that MIGHT satisfy the naysayers to thermal clips on a narrative and tactical level (if justifications of gameply are not enough), here is an entry I fond in the ME wiki, although I can't vouch for whether or not it was directly quoted from the game's Codex:

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using
mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to
lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with
features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can
generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block
of metal.
It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips

So there you have it, the Geth have calculated that statistically, you're better better off using thermal clips.  Who am I to argue against the collective computing power of the Geth? 

Modifié par Captain Kibosh, 21 mai 2011 - 05:16 .

[CroGamer002]

Halo Quea wrote...

Xeranx wrote...

Hopefully someone will come out with a coalesced.ini tweak so I can have my cooldown. Probably would have been better if thermal clips were introduced as back up in case your weapon overheated enough so that the thermal clip warped.

This is EXACTLY what I suggested a long time ago!!!!!  

Thermal Clips as a backup when you run out of ammo!  I don't understand, what was wrong with that suggestion? It would have been the best of both without having to completely rely on secondary weapons or picking up dropped clips on the battlefield.

Oh Frak!! Nobody is listening. 

Because that system sucks.

It is very NOT fun.

[Iakus]

mopotter wrote...

Since the story is what I'm playing for more than anything else, how I get the ammo to kill the bad guys isn't that big of a deal for me.
Overheating didn't bother me I just switched weapons. I do feel silly running around in circles picking up the bright and shinny ammo laying around, but I can live with it and it's easier then having to find ammo boxes or actually buying the ammo from shops, like I do in Fall Out.

Couldn't have said it better myself.  All I'd add is I found the way thermal clips got shoehorned into the lore was less than satisfactory as well.

[Darkhour]

Banzboy wrote...

95Headhunter wrote...

While I have no problem with them sticking with thermal clips, I am a little disappointed that they're not at least tweaking the system (at least, that comment doesn't suggest they are).

The current system is still broken. This has been discussed endless times, so I'm just going to say I'm mostly fine with the clip system as a combat mechanic. BUT...

Either these clips are universal or they're not. Either each pick up should contribute to a total ammo pool - which all weapons draw from, or each weapon should have clearly defined separate ammo. The system as is doesn't make any sense.

This. Sometimes i want to use my shotgun but i have no idea when i'll get ammo for it. It seems completely random.

Huh? Ammo clips are universal.

It would be nice to be able to use them for any weapon though. It's not like they clips are in the gun itself. If they were there would be no reload. They'd just pop out during the fight and you'd continue shooting uninterrupted.

[Fixers0]

I don't have anything against gameplay improvements or anything that makes the game more balanced, but i would really like to know how it's works, now theoretically guns function largly the same as in Mass Effect, they build up heat, but how does this relate to an ammo counte and a reserve ammo pool,

Another problem i have with thermal clips, is that is generic and felt uninspiring, and ultimately just felt like a lame excuse to incorperate an ammo system into Mass Effect, the only thing that set's it apart from standard ammo systems is the you don't put a new into your weapon after you ejected the old one, and that all weapons use the same type of ammo, which make it even more simplistic.

[Zunger]

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

[Halo Quea]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Thermal Clips!





Seriously though, there are some things that can be done to provide the player with some opportunities to manually reload without being forced to solely scavenge for more Thermal Clips. I've tried a few ideas out myself, from having a reset after combat, to a speedload idea during combat.

And at any rate here's a relevant quote below.


“Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.”

I like that quote.   

I really wish Bioware would start on a new IP and step away from Mass Effect and Dragon Age for a couple of years.    Come back in say 2013 with all new teams of writers and designers with FRESH ideas and stronger concepts for how to improve role playing elements instead of gutting them.

At the rate that they're going, there isn't going to be very much about either of these franchises that would be recognizable to those of us who played the first games.  It's a very sad statement when a game has to switch  genres in the middle of a trilogy just to attract a demographic that  admittedly doesn't even like playing or finishing the SP campaigns of most of their favorite shooters.    And so now it's expected that these same disinterested gamers will devote 40-50hrs playing the SP campaign of a role playing game just because you went full tilt with guns?

Seriously, this is NOT going to work Bioware.  

[Ahglock]

While I think ME2 had greatly improved shooting mechanics, I do not believe the ammo system had anything to do with that. For an ammo system to have an impact on game play it either has to force strict conservation of ammo or force the player to pick up weapons from the dead which are actually different in use and capabilities.

ME2 did neither of those things, you might have to swap to a currently carried weapon if you focus on pistols or the widow, but with the widow you still normally don;t and with the pistol it wold mainly be if you stubbornly refuse to use appropriate weapons against the right defenses. And that is more an artifact of the rock paper defense system. None of the other weapons have ammo concerns in the slightest so this really never effects game play. all the ammo system did was give a familiar system to shooter fans, it added nothing else to the game even if the shooting system was vastly improved over all.

[Bluko]

 Eh I'm not really surprised. They obviously aren't going to make any modifications with what they believe is their superior version of the game. The real issue is less about gameplay (although ME2's system could certainly be improved upon) and more about the outright retcon to the lore. Just damages the series integrity.

The issue isn't really about playability since I honestly have no issues actually playing either game. My gripes essentially are...

-If you were going to add ammo why didn't you just do that? Seriously why couldn't the guns just use ammunition blocks in some fashion as current weapons use clips? This could have easily been  explained to be believable and would actually lend more to the series since it is noted that weapons still have limited ammunition. But instead we get "thermal clips" which frankly don't make any sense to use at all.

-Why aren't thermal clips universal? The codex entry says thermal clips are universal, but in-game they aren't. Yes picking up a thermal clip replenishes the ammo reserve for each weapon (sort of) but really why not just have one ammunition reserve then? It just shows how poorly implemented this idea was. If the guns are going to each have their own ammo reserve then there should be distinct thermal clips for each weapon.

I sincerely hope some effort is being made to make weapons use thermal clips universally, especially in light of the fact in ME3 everyone will be able to use any weapon. Doing so would actually help ensure the weapons are balanced.

[theSteeeeeels]

i wouldnt mind seeing a hybrid of both. heat weapons that cool down VERY SLOWLY (compared to me1 relatively fast auto cooldown) and you can "vent" (reload) your gun at any time, but at the same time if your gun over heats from constant fire you can still shoot for an extra 1-2 seconds, but then youre forced into a "long vent" which is a 5-6 second animation of your venting your gun.

maybe even introduce a gun damage and repair mechanic where if you constantly over heat your gun too much it gets damaged, the more damaged it does slightly less damage or accuracy in combat. if you damage the gun too much it breaks down and you have to get it repaired. so in the middle of long missions if you dont use your gun carefully then you're going to have to switch to a switch to a smg or pistol, until you get back on the normandy and fix it.

Modifié par theSteeeeeels, 21 mai 2011 - 06:20 .

[Savber100]

Meh... I never liked the ME gun system. Too much 'hold down A' to win with some quick consecutive breaks in between!

BUT, I agree... try to create a system that respects the system established in ME. rather than retconning it.

[Phaedon]

Starman01 wrote...

Hm, I don't mind the use of the clips. In a battle, I found it more convinient than having my weapon overheating in the stupiest moments. Not sure I understand the idea behind the clip ( i don't bother), I just see them as ammo. At least, it add something to the gameplay because I have to take care that my weapons are ready to shoot, and I'm sometimes forced to switch to a new weapon. Only thing that pained me a bit, was the limited ammo storage at all. Some more ways to enhance the ammo that can be carried would be nice (either due to research or armor addons)

While I have been an supporter of clips when it comes to canon and how they make sense, the regenerating ammo would indeed be death in CQB. The maps in ME3 seem to be large battlefields, however. I am eagerly awaiting to see how this turns out.

[Phaedon]

Vengeful Nature wrote...
I'm with Mesina here. Mass Effect was always about shooter/RPG hybridising. ME tried to keep to many RPG features and it just didn't work, ME2 was better but got rid of too many RPG features. ME3 looks to balance it very nicely.

Agreed.

[Notanything]

If they want to continue using a system that has holes in its lore like Swiss cheese, fine. I can't do anything about it so whatever, I would have preferred a hybrid thermal clip and overheating system because it perfectly balances out of the possible imbalances, but noooo. Let's just disregard everything and keep the lie that thermal clips AREN'T ammunition in disguise. I mean really.. I swear I got out more shots at an optimal rate using a pistol without any sort of heat sink, or frictionless materials. With my newer heavy pistol, I can only shoot like six times until I have to reload, and when I collect a thermal clip, it only gives like three am- I mean shots.

I know the shooter audience can't possibly comprehend a game without guns, but I mean come on.. Thermal clips are in no way used correctly for the strategic value they are supposed to offer. It shouldn't be that hard to make a system with both collaborating in perfect harmony.

[Blacklash93]

It's better for the gameplay. I'd rather have ME2's thermal clip system over ME1's infinite ammo and long cooldown times any day.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 21 mai 2011 - 06:38 .

[The Spamming Troll]

it seems like whenever i see the name "christina norman," im soon feeling dissapointed.

Mesina2 wrote...

True, ME2 is more of a shooter then RPG, but both shooter and RPG elements are FAR superior then in ME1.

your delusional.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 21 mai 2011 - 06:38 .

[Varen Spectre]

Phaedon wrote...

 A really short thread guys, but I felt the need to do this.
...
Anyway, I suppose it sounds a bit hypocritical to say that I respect this decision, while I often supported innovation in the past (and present). 
...

Threads about ammo will never be short. 

Well, if you are hesitating whether you are hypocryte or not, than I must be a downright big one, because a few days ago I was rallying you guys to brainstorm about Infiltrator's powers and now here I stand to support standard ammo system. 

I... I just can't help myself, but I have never enjoyed any other ammo system (regenerating system in ME1, no ammo clips in Q3/UT, switching entire clips in Ghost Recon or was it Americas Army?, etc.) as much as good old ammo reloading system.

On one hand, it gives me relatively decent control over the pace of combat - it's me who decides when I will be shooting and when I will be reloading (even after every single round, if I want to - this would not be possible with hybrid system)...

On the other, it motivates me to try shoot accurately, since the amount of ammo is limited both in particular clip and in my supplies / inventory in general.

So gameplay-wise, I was really happy with Mass Effect 2's ammo system. But, that's just me. I am not forcing my opinion on anyone else...

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 21 mai 2011 - 06:47 .

[Phaedon]

Varen Spectre wrote...
Threads about ammo will never be short. 

Quite correct, a 'short OP' is a much more fitting comment.