791 réponses à ce sujet

[GenericPlayer2]

I like the ammo system in ME2. I feel sad for BW because they have to call it 'thermal clips' out of some sense of RPG continuity. I would much rather they focused on preserving continuity in the story where it really mattered.

I agree with some of the comments that the clips for each weapon should be different, or that the clips be be pooled into one pile that all weapons draw from. I understand its a balancing issue - they don't want you to be able to fire your shotgun with a huge ammo pile to draw from.

The other issue is that in light of ammo consumption and management being so important, it seems there is no effort to fix bugs that effect N7 extra ammo mods (e.g. off-hand ammo pack).

Finally, what I would like to see in ME3 is the removal of ammo powers. Instead of having ammo powers, I would suggest the damage type be set for each weapon from the armory. that way any class can use any ammo power, but they can only change it from the armory. It would shrink the talent trees and offer some interesting decisions for the player to make.

[Xeranx]

Savber100 wrote...

Meh... I never liked the ME gun system. Too much 'hold down A' to win with some quick consecutive breaks in between!

BUT, I agree... try to create a system that respects the system established in ME. rather than retconning it.

Quick consecutive breaks which led to overheating anyway correct?  

In addition to worrying about heat management there was also the fact that combatants had the means to temporarily disable your weapon of choice.  Many people who use a portion of the bold part in blue completely forgot (either intentionally or genuinely - though I think it's the former) that making sure you were out in the open to fire and cause damage put you at risk of having to fall back to a weapon you'd probably rather not use in a given situation.  This not only had you thinking tactically in terms of cover and location on the battlefield, it also forced you to move in case you wanted or needed to get a better vantage point.  I guarantee that if they had worked on enemy AI that the weapon system of ME would have been fine.  Instead they chose to mess with the integrity of IP rather than work on other aspects that should have made the combat more than it was.

[Xerxes52]

I prefer the thermal clip system in ME2, but they need a better way to quickly replenish ammo when outside of combat encounters.

[Da Mecca]

I'd rather they not retcon it AGAIN.

We need SOME kind of consistency going into these things, though I do wish they retun ammo mods and scap that "ammo power" garbage.

The only ammo type I'd consider a power is Warp Ammo. basically because the in-game description says they are actively putting biotic energy into their guns.

Could have at least tried to make it look like it though, no such thing as biotic holograms.

[Savber100]

Xeranx wrote...

Quick consecutive breaks which led to overheating anyway correct?  

In addition to worrying about heat management there was also the fact that combatants had the means to temporarily disable your weapon of choice.  Many people who use a portion of the bold part in blue completely forgot (either intentionally or genuinely - though I think it's the former) that making sure you were out in the open to fire and cause damage put you at risk of having to fall back to a weapon you'd probably rather not use in a given situation.  This not only had you thinking tactically in terms of cover and location on the battlefield, it also forced you to move in case you wanted or needed to get a better vantage point.  I guarantee that if they had worked on enemy AI that the weapon system of ME would have been fine.  Instead they chose to mess with the integrity of IP rather than work on other aspects that should have made the combat more than it was.

Nope.. my copy of ME had an occasional bug which glitches up the gun when it overheats hence why I avoid  overheating like mad.

I find it amusing what you said in the bold part because for a second, I though you were talking about ME2 instead of ME because I never really ran into that situation in ME. ;P

In ME, I never ran out of bullets (becaeuse there were none)  hence I rarely took cover or 'strategically' thought my way out of a situtation. I aimed with my overly large but accurate round reticule and charged while holding down the left mouse button with a barrage of overload and biotics. Maybe I was playing on normal but it tend to work.

In ME2, I tried to the same but the kickback of the gun and the requirement of ammo forced me to actually think and react accordingly to my situation. The fear of running out of ammo made it more strategic than having a gun with unlimited ammo. ;P


But by all means, bring back enemies that can knock your gun out of commission temporarily!

Modifié par Savber100, 21 mai 2011 - 07:35 .

[Forsythia]

I liked the ME1 system better, but I can see why they changed it for ME2. Changing it again for ME3 would be silly, so I'm fine with it.

[WizenSlinky0]

I just wish they had stuck with one system from the start. They experimented with a no ammo system, it didn't work quite like they wanted, great so now tweak that.

But we've already switched to thermo clips so I'd rather they now tweak that to work better rather than flip-flop again. Seems unproductive to keep changing to all new systems everytime one gets some bad feedback. And at least Bioware tries to keep a tongue-in-cheek style of humor with their changes (such as the omni-gel joke in LoTSB).

The ammo decision was a safe choice to make. Nothing innovative but it works and lets them concentrate on balancing other aspects of the game.

[Darkhour]

Zunger wrote...

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

I liked how they transcended time and space.  Even the stranded people on Aeia, who had been there since 6 years prior to ME1, had thermal clip weapons. 

[Halo Quea]

Da Mecca wrote...

I'd rather they not retcon it AGAIN.

We need SOME kind of consistency going into these things, though I do wish they retun ammo mods and scap that "ammo power" garbage.

The only ammo type I'd consider a power is Warp Ammo. basically because the in-game description says they are actively putting biotic energy into their guns.

Could have at least tried to make it look like it though, no such thing as biotic holograms.

LOL!  I guess Bioware thought we were too simple to know what ammo type we were using. 

Ammo as a skill set didn't work for me either.   Oh man, in ME1 we used to have such a huge bag of tricks.  We had mines, grenades, exploding rounds, deep talent and skill sets.  With ME2 BIoware took sooooooooooooo many things away from us, then completely nerfed the biotics.  And then they gave us an ammo system that required that we spend our limited skill points just to upgrade.

All this fuss just to get CoD fans. 

[Sgt Stryker]

Darkhour wrote...

Zunger wrote...

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

I liked how they transcended time and space.  Even the stranded people on Aeia, who had been there since 6 years prior to ME1, had thermal clip weapons. 

I also like how everyone in the galaxy managed to either retrofit their weapons to accept thermal clips, or all the old weapons ceased to exist in just two years. Almost like Gun Jesus decided to rapture all the old guns into Gun Heaven. 

Sorry, but that's not how technology advances.

[Anihilus]

It should be a hybrid of the two systems. Like they use thermal clips, but after you run out of them you can keep on firing and take the risk of your gun overheating or even overloading on you if you're desperate.

[Ahglock]

Forsythia wrote...

I liked the ME1 system better, but I can see why they changed it for ME2. Changing it again for ME3 would be silly, so I'm fine with it.

I am pretty much in the same boat.  One of the complaints of ME2 was anything people complained about in ME1 was removed rather than fixed, I am in no hurry for them to double down on that bit of idiocy.  Fix what you have, don't remove things.  

[DieBySword]

Blacklash93 wrote...

It's better for the gameplay. I'd rather have ME2's thermal clip system over ME1's infinite ammo and long cooldown times any day.

If you even remotely play the game as it is intended you never actualy run in a situation when your out of ammo totaly, you sometimes might use all the ammo for a certain weapon but its so easy to find more of it that you can say ME2 uses infinite ammo like ME1 does. Both ME1&2 got a limit on fire rate, the first had the overheat mechanics and the second has the ammo counter. If we take into account both mechanics we can say that you could shoot more round in ME1 before overheating (without any mods) that with Me2 ammo limit.

Thats forgeting that ME1 enemies could sabotage your gun so there was more risk in using the oveheat mechanics than an ammo based gun. Furthemore braking the lore with termal clips so if its a heat sink why doesnt the ammo count replenish over time lolz @ hidden ammo.

kregano wrote...

I'm totally not surprised by the lack of a
hybrid system. Back on the old Bioware ME forums, Christina Norman said
that the reason they didn't like the hybrid system was because the game
play testers would just burn through their clips until they hit the
final one, at which point they would just rely on the cooldown to keep
fighting instead of moving around to get clips.

Dunno why that was bad, sound logical to do it that way. I think its missing the part about "after they finished the level enemies they restocked back up on thermal clips" part. They could just lower the thermal clip count and make the guns overheat a longer period so conserving clips would be a viable option or make the guns overheat like ME1 and the thermal clips would be backup heat sink that you can replace in a time of need (limited count)

[Darkhour]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Zunger wrote...

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

I liked how they transcended time and space.  Even the stranded people on Aeia, who had been there since 6 years prior to ME1, had thermal clip weapons. 

I also like how everyone in the galaxy managed to either retrofit their weapons to accept thermal clips, or all the old weapons ceased to exist in just two years. Almost like Gun Jesus decided to rapture all the old guns into Gun Heaven. 

Sorry, but that's not how technology advances.

Shepard had been dead for 2 years and he knew about thermal clips only 15 seconds after he woke up. Must be the work of NRA Jesus.

[Murmillos]

Darkhour wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Zunger wrote...

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

I liked how they transcended time and space.  Even the stranded people on Aeia, who had been there since 6 years prior to ME1, had thermal clip weapons. 

I also like how everyone in the galaxy managed to either retrofit their weapons to accept thermal clips, or all the old weapons ceased to exist in just two years. Almost like Gun Jesus decided to rapture all the old guns into Gun Heaven. 

Sorry, but that's not how technology advances.

Shepard had been dead for 2 years and he knew about thermal clips only 15 seconds after he woke up. Must be the work of NRA Jesus.

Well, you can almost hand wave it as they were programing his mind with combat protocols during the rebuilding process, or something scifi like that...
/almost

Modifié par Murmillos, 21 mai 2011 - 10:22 .

[kregano]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Zunger wrote...

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

I liked how they transcended time and space.  Even the stranded people on Aeia, who had been there since 6 years prior to ME1, had thermal clip weapons. 

I also like how everyone in the galaxy managed to either retrofit their weapons to accept thermal clips, or all the old weapons ceased to exist in just two years. Almost like Gun Jesus decided to rapture all the old guns into Gun Heaven. 

Sorry, but that's not how technology advances.

This is a universe where they have ubiqitious mass fabrication via super advanced 3D printers. Why wouldn't they be able to change all the guns in two years?

[jellmoo32]

I honestly don't have a huge preference. Sure, it was jarring for the first little bit, but I quickly adapted.

The only issue I have is that "ammo" is a decidedly non-issue on the default difficulty level. At the absolute worst, you may have to switch to a different weapon once or twice during your playthrough. At no point are you in danger of completely running out of "ammo". The stuff is so plentiful that you can't pick up the majority of it.

Introducing a new mechanic that really only comes into play on the advanced difficulties seems like a very odd choice.

[Dracotamer]

I don't respect it at all. I feel it is a cop out and have hated the changed since ME2. It doesn't follow the lore or make any sense. This is why I edited my .ini file to allow ammo regeneration in all but heavy weapons.

[ArcanistLibram]

Thermal clips were more fun for me than unlimited ammo.

[Notanything]

Dracotamer wrote...

I don't respect it at all. I feel it is a cop out and have hated the changed since ME2. It doesn't follow the lore or make any sense. This is why I edited my .ini file to allow ammo regeneration in all but heavy weapons.

How does that work anyway?  I mean as in gameplay, does it feel balanced out, or does it make you a walking death machine like people seem to exagerrate?

[jakal66]

Glad they kept it...hated ME1 system.Didn't have any issues in ME2.

[Sgt Stryker]

kregano wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

Zunger wrote...

I think that they explained the thermal clips quite well in the game. Basically, people didn't want to wait for their weapons to cool off, so they used thermal clips. Would be interesting to have a system where you could either reload or wait for the weapon to cool off. For one, it would take care of the situations where ammo is sparse and you could only use your powers.

I liked how they transcended time and space.  Even the stranded people on Aeia, who had been there since 6 years prior to ME1, had thermal clip weapons. 

I also like how everyone in the galaxy managed to either retrofit their weapons to accept thermal clips, or all the old weapons ceased to exist in just two years. Almost like Gun Jesus decided to rapture all the old guns into Gun Heaven. 

Sorry, but that's not how technology advances.

This is a universe where they have ubiqitious mass fabrication via super advanced 3D printers. Why wouldn't they be able to change all the guns in two years?

It's not a question of can they, but should they? As the story goes, thermal clips were introduced to achieve higher rates of fire. This is accomplished by ejecting a detachable heat sink, rather than waiting for a fixed heat sink to cool off on its own. That's all well and good for high RoF weapons like assault rifles, SMG's, and maybe pistols, but what about low RoF weapons like the Mantis rifle and all shotguns? What exactly is the advantage in having ejectable heat sinks versus a fixed heat sink that cools down over time for a semi-auto or bolt-action weapon? Don't you end up with the same rate of fire regardless of which cooling system you use?

And again, this does not explain why it seems that nobody in the galaxy chose to keep the old system. Consider the analogy of the development of jet aircraft in our own history. Germany introduced the first jet fighter, the Me-262 in 1944. According to ME logic, every airforce in the world should have completely abandoned propeller aircraft and switched over to jets in 1946. That clearly did not happen.

[rabidhanar]

It is really not that bad.

Mattock is the only true weapon that is horribly overpowered.
The snipers all have their slow fire rate, the revenent really doesn't care for reload anyway, shotguns and pistols have situational usage.

You cannot kill anything faster, you just do not run out of ammo. Damage is not changed, just how many rounds u have at a time.


To those that believe that infinite ammo would make camping easier...yes a widow with infinite ammo can be abused. However, those classes that have powers often just spam their powers, giving a soldier/infiltrator the same ability would not really hurt.

If a person wanted to use the best weapon for each situation, they wouldn't worry about ammo anyways. I want to be able to use the weapon I like...not be obligated to switch when I run out of shotgun or sniper ammo.

[Notanything]

All it would take to improve possible camping is improved enemy AI. Doesn't anybody see the potential for it? An improved AI should be able to call out to his fellow allies that the enemy has overheated their weapon. This should cause all the enemies to move up and disregard any sort of cover until the enemy has returned firing. They want to make the combat harder, this is how you balance something out. As far as overheating.

Once again, lore reasons for thermal clips are stupid. If there was a war between a side with thermal clips and weapons that can overheat, the thermal clip using side would be at a disadvantage, because after enough time, they would run out thermal clips unless they were close to some sort of armory. The users of the old weaponry could simply maintain fire to avoid overheating, and since the weapons they have actually COOL DOWN unlike newer thermal clip using weapons, they are not bound by an ammunition count. Unless of course the block inside the gun runs out.

[Devos]

Phaedon wrote...

Saying that the ME2 system is terrible is a bit silly if you ask me. 95% of all shooters use that system, so I suppose that you find them all terrible. Sorry, I can't help but frown at such extreme arguments.

Straw man much?

Yes ME2's ammo system is terrible and no "95%" of shooters don't use it.

The ammo system used by games, good or bad doesn't just come down to limited ammo, pick up clips to refill it. How much ammo can you hold? How much ammo per-magazine? How much ammo do you pick up at a time? What can you do when you are getting low? All of these factors are part of the implementation of the system.

ME2's problem is that compared to your total your ammo could fluctuate a lot so you constantly needed to refill it by hunting around for clips between fights. There was a slim chance you could be unlucky and run out and it really did come down to luck. The only time you are going to have a consistent problem with ammo is if you want to use a weapon which has low ammo capacities such as Shotgun before the upgrade and Sniper Rifles.

The pay off to this busy work. Absolutely Nothing. There is no strategic or tactical choices the ammo system has you make. Your gun already decided based on effectiveness against defence, utility and ability synergy (charge and shotgun, tactical cloak and sniper). On top of that the two categories of gun you are punished most by the ammo system for trying to use consistently each have a class more or less dedicated to using them. Was it ever really going to add to the fun by denying the player the play style they opted for?

So yes, ME2's ammo system is bad and if you look carefully at what "95%" of shooters do they handle it better. They are better because they use ammo availability to force choices, change how you play or simply don't generate busy work by giving you regular refills. But I'm not too worried about the announcement: I think it's probably easier to fix the problems with  ME2's ammo system than ME1's and I hope Bioware got the message. But lets not pretend there wasn't problems with ME2's system.

Also I don't find a game to be terrible just because it's ammo system is terrible. For example I find ME2's ammo system is terrible but I still believe it is quite simply one of the greatest games there is. That makes it all the more frustrating it gets wrong something so many other, lesser games got right.

Modifié par Devos, 22 mai 2011 - 03:14 .