791 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Zeevico wrote...

looking for it at the end of a fight is annoying. auto-pickup at the end of an encounter should be implemented.

But that's stupid and makes no absolute sense.

Also how many games ever did that?
Yeah, none.

[Admoniter]

Can't say that I'm not disappointed that they didn't go with a hybrid system, but okay I can deal. Now on to the more pressing matter. FIX THERMAL CLIPS SO THAT THEY FUNCTION AS ACTUAL DISPOSABLE HEAT SINKS!!!! Seriously at this point it just makes more sense just to start calling thermal clips magazines because in the game that is exactly how they function like ammo, you now shoot bullets and require a magazine to shoot them which must be reloaded.

I can deal with the loss of the overheating mechanic, what I will not deal with is a system that says one thing and plays out completely different. I mean this in the best way possible TCs in ME2 are so arbitrary-****ing-retarded that it makes my brain hemorrhage just thinking about it. Hell it would be so easy to fix this, change the ammo counter to show how many TCs you have available to you atm instead of an overall ammo pool, and make it so that reloading completely discards the TC no matter the capacity in it. No more of this bull**** where I have 5 shots in my thermal clip and 5 in reserve and now when I reload I have 10. Hell just rip the system from Doom 3 atleast that ammo mechanic can actually be sold as some form of heating system provided you explain it.

Modifié par Admoniter, 22 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[Da Mecca]

Mesina2 wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

looking for it at the end of a fight is annoying. auto-pickup at the end of an encounter should be implemented.

But that's stupid and makes no absolute sense.

Also how many games ever did that?
Yeah, none.

The gane is streamlined enough as it is.

People can barely manage to do anything anymore

[Phaedon]

I don't see why people won't accept clips, lore-wise.

1) "The galaxy can't have switched in 2,5 years!"
Wrong. Are today's PCs the same as the PCs we had 3 years ago?

2) "But that's completely different!"
Nope. The cheaper a technology gets, the more quickly it advances. On top of that, this is the biggest conflict since the Krogan Rebellions, and the codex states that weapon upgrades are cheap and weapons are easy to modify.

3) Heatsinks>Thermal Clips
They may sound good for slow-paced long ranged combat, but believe me, they are certain death for CQB with an AI. Not to mention, that heatsinks use the same concept as thermal clips, you have to replace those too, you just don't do it as often.

[Sgt Stryker]

Mesina2 wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

looking for it at the end of a fight is annoying. auto-pickup at the end of an encounter should be implemented.

But that's stupid and makes no absolute sense.

Also how many games ever did that?
Yeah, none.

It makes about as much sense as say, salvaging thermal clips from enemies who cannot possibly use thermal clips. (e.g. the mechs on Aeia) Of course, I'll admit that the Aeia situation makes about as much sense as the following common situation in ME1: You blow up a geth with your Mako turret from 500 meters away. Instantly you are rewarded with whatever loot item that geth was carrying in its invisible backpack (which could be something completely absurd, like a set of krogan armor, or a weapon made by a human manufacturer). 

What do both of these situations tell us? That what we see in gameplay does not always translate directly to the "reality" of the MEverse. Good old gameplay/story segregation is essential, otherwise we'd all go insane trying to justify all the gameplay mechanics.

[Kabanya101]

I preferred ME1 system over ME2, yes it was bugged, but don't all games have a bug in certain aspects? The answer is yes.

My thought when playing ME1, "Okay, we're in the FUTURE, so we don't need ammo, okay, seems realistic to the environment and world that I'm in." And then I see people saying the system was unrealistic, the whole game is based on futuristic technology, I think its okay.

And somethings about the clips annoyed me, just like other shooter type of games. They have random clips just lying on the ground and in corners with no guns or anything around. Where do the clips come from, why are they there? No one knows. Unrealistic.
In LotSB, your on the outside of a ship with blaring winds, I don't a one once clip is just going to lie on the ground like that. People who want realistic, why isn't it there? Unrealistic.
Where does shep hold the ammo? No pockets, slots or anything. Do they just get stored in the gun or what? Doesn't make sense. No explanation.

The first "ammo" system made more sense and made the environment of the game more realistic, for its "time" in the game. Thermal clips have too many variables and not many questions answered about them. For all you realistic players, your ammo system with thermal clips makes no sense in the ME universe/time/era whatever you want to call it.

[Halo Quea]

Da Mecca wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Zeevico wrote...

looking for it at the end of a fight is annoying. auto-pickup at the end of an encounter should be implemented.

But that's stupid and makes no absolute sense.

Also how many games ever did that?
Yeah, none.

The gane is streamlined enough as it is.

People can barely manage to do anything anymore

It's just so stupid.   Someone took the time to create a logical, scientific weapon and ammo system based on micro mass acceleration.  Essentially putting a calculated mass driver inside every hand held weapon.  A self suspended projectile that at no time comes in contact with any internal parts after it's been sliced from the block.

And now it suddenly needs a thermal clip. 

[Vena_86]

ME2s system constantly breaks immersion. Thats the problem. Everytime you run out of clips it's like "Really? In the future with weapons that hold thousands of little grain bullets and we get limitations from World War 1?"
Why do weapons never cool down? How stupid is the technology if it wastes just as many thermal clips as todays weapons use ammo clips?
Thermal clips just lying arround make no sense either.
So many people have suggested a hybrid system, where clips would atleast slowly cool down and punching in a new thermal clip would be a tactical choice.

On one side BioWare insists that they don't give a **** about common consensus what a RPG should be (respect for that), but at the same time they bend over to shooter genre conventions eventhough they contradict the established Mass Effect universe. And that deserves no respect.

Modifié par Vena_86, 22 mai 2011 - 11:09 .

[AllenShepard]

There is only one perfect answer.

Make it exactly like ME! except when you're weapon overheats you can pop out the thermal clip and replace it. Then, make thermal clips more scarce and encouraging only letting the weapon overheat is serious firefights or emergencies.

[Someone With Mass]

AllenShepard wrote...

There is only one perfect answer.

Make it exactly like ME! except when you're weapon overheats you can pop out the thermal clip and replace it. Then, make thermal clips more scarce and encouraging only letting the weapon overheat is serious firefights or emergencies.

They did make a system like that, but it was scrapped during testing.

[Murmillos]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I'd rather take two seconds of reload time than waiting about ten seconds for the gun to cool down because I don't want to use the weapon mods that gives me unlimited ammo, because that makes the battles hideously boring.

Again, that was due to the balacing problem of the system, not a flaw due to the system.

Listen to yourself; just because something didn't work perfectly, the only method is to completely change the system instead of fixing it?

They could have made cooling / "unlimited" ammo work if they found the correct balance between shots to over heat, cool down period - over heat wait time vrs using a heatsink.

As I've posted in my other threads for "fixes"..
Most ME2 weapons are unchanged, 99% weapon heat to 0% heat takes 2.5 seconds to cool down - across the board (times never changes in game as you upgrade weapons). 100% over heat takes 4 seconds to cool down, or you can use a heatsink which cools down the weapon in 1 second on activation. Additional heatsinks are found ONLY in ammo boxes and weapon exchange stations (maybe maybe) rarely in also next to medical 'toolboxes'.

Again, there would be some tweaking of time variance; but it gets rid of long waits, if you do over heat the wait isn't horribly punishing - and has a back up method to fix which is limited, but can be restocked during a level.

[Someone With Mass]

I just think it's unnecessary for them to rebuild a system that works. All they really need to do is to increase the amount of ammo that can be picked up.

And from what I've read about ME3, the improvements makes it look a waste to revert back to a slightly better version of the system in ME1.

[Praetor Knight]

Halo Quea wrote...

It's just so stupid.   Someone took the time to create a logical, scientific weapon and ammo system based on micro mass acceleration.  Essentially putting a calculated mass driver inside every hand held weapon.  A self suspended projectile that at no time comes in contact with any internal parts after it's been sliced from the block.

And now it suddenly needs a thermal clip. 

Well, waste heat must be managed. Look at the modern Railguns. They produce plasma when fired!
Quite a sight, just look them up on youtube.

***********************************


So if we can't really get around having waste heat, than that must be mitigated.

In ME1, excluding the Master Gear rewards, improved weapon models could fire more rounds before overheating, but they could still overheat, so at times they would have to be shot slower.

Then Heat Sinks and Frictionless Materials were available as an after-market modification for weapons, but those seem rare in-game, so maybe also rare in-universe for Small Arms? That's plausible enough IMHO.


Than Thermal Clips were than introduced for ME2, that at least in theory made weapons superior to those without the improved heat mitigation. The next step is filling in the details as to how that is the case. And retrofitting older weapons with Thermal Clips seems common enough, as the Mattock and Locust descriptions mention that they are older weapons and use Thermal Clips.

Also,Shotguns and SMG's can double their total number of shots in ME2, so I see no reason why further improvements would not be made for Thermal Clips in ME3.

So with things as they are, I'd rather throw out plausible solutions for troublesome gameplay mechanics to make the combat experience better for everyone, since that's where the problems seem to be.
And even though I enjoy ME2 combat as is, MOAR improvements are always welcome for ME3.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Gatt9 wrote...
Ok,  so either you cannot find the part where I made that statement either or you're putting words in my mouth again.  Once again,  try dealing with what I actually said.

You either don't get it or playing possum. You, me and anyone with half a brain would know that changing something like this based on "hey dude, like, ammos are in shooters, so let's put in ammo" is moronic. There are very valid gameplay reasons, of which I've explained to you, but you've chosen to overlook. The fact is, you initially assume that because you didn't find the reasons, therefore BW's decision is must be a moronic one. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps your observations have been incomplete, whether you're unaware of it or not?

I would have written: "I can't find a reason for it"

So what you're saying is that you cannot come up with any other viable reason for adding them to ME2 since they're so incredibly prevelant as to be irrelevant?  So rather than actually answer the question,  you just try diversion?

You've completely missed the point. The "I" means you, Gatt9.

1.  Please,  I do not need to invest 200+ hours to tell you that there's no reason for them.  This isn't a doctrate analysis,  it's a game.  If my soldier,  the class that should require the most amount of thermal clips by definition doesn't need them,  it's not serving a purpose.

2. Bioware's inability to design and balance a game across all difficulties is not my problem.

3.  Ah,  so since I didn't "Register my game I can't have a valid statement?  I did register it,  Bioware's system is bugged,  and it never showed.  I registered DAO as well.  Once again,  this is not my problem,  and your hangup with people registering their games isn't my problem either.

4.  I don't need to talk to them.  Watched my best friend play the whole game as an Adept.  He had even less need for ciips than I did.

Oh come now. I actually read this board every one in a while, so I've read you stuff on other threads lately. Don't be coy.

Ah,  so because I posted on a completely different topic you're going to extend that to every post I make regardless of topic?  So basically you have a problem with the fact that in other threads I pointed out that ME2 isn't an RPG,  and now you're going to claim that every post I make is saying "ME2 isn't an RPG because of this topic too!".

Sounds like you've got a personal problem with my commentary about ME2's lack of RPG that you just won't/can't let go. 

Seriously,  you just extended commentary from some completely unrelated thread into this one for no reason whatsoever,  and you wonder why I'm talking about people that need to realize there are flaws?  I'll put it more bluntly.

People need to quit blindly defending ME2 and accept there were flaws,  and they very seriously need to start actually posting counterpoints instead of trying to continue some war to justify their enjoyment of the game. 

I'm not making assumptions,  I'm not putting words in people's mouths,  and I'm not derailing threads trying to continue some disagreement from 4 threads ago.  Other people need to do the same.

Gatt9, let me simplify this: the ammo issue here very much relates to other the issues. The core of the problem is that while you believe that you've made a very keen observation, but the fact is, it's incomplete:

1. You play the soldier, the most powerful class in the game, on normal, where the margin of error is very wide. You don't use powers, you don't use squadmates, you don't use tactics, and you beat the game easily. ME2's normal is stupidly easy for any class, and the Soldier is very overpowered. I can boot up any other RPGs, turn on autoleveling, put it on easy difficulty and play the game as crude God of War-like hack-and-slash game. I can then complain that the action is clunky and primitive, that the bow is useless because I never need to use it, that there's no difference between lighting or fire spells because they all do the same damage to mostly everyone. In other words, I'm playing a stripped down version of the game. Jeez, what's the point of spells when I can kill everything with my sword? What's the point of picking up arrows when I never run out of them? That's what you are doing that with ME2. Do you not see that?

2. Because you obviously already made up in your mind that ME2 is not an RPG, you are simply looking for evidence to support your idea and disregarding evidence that says otherwise. Case in point, the reasons limited ammo is important for ME2 gameplay are:

- adds tension and encourages active engagement. The fact you never ran out of ammo has more to do with level of difficulty. The very idea of limited ammo changes your perspective, as evidenced my by Hammerhead example, of which you've chosen to ignore.

- opens up more weapon designs. The cooldown system dictated DPS and it's the main reason why ME1 guns all had the same RoF and they're all automatic. It's very hard to make the Predator and the Carniflex with distinct personalities while making them balanced if they had cooldowns. Or the Viper vs the Widow. Or the Tempest vs. the Shuriken vs. the Locust. Or the Katana vs. the Scimitar.

- more fluid action when you're using powers and shooting at the same time.

I've already explained most of this to you, and yet again you've failed to respond other than "this isn't a doctorate analysis" or that I'm getting "personal" with you. Talk about putting words into people's mouths.

And you counter to the above points are "Who cares, I never had to use tactics, powers, or had problems with ammo, and why should I play on harder difficulties?" So back to my autoleveling easy mode RPG analogy: I would be complaining “What’s the point of spells when I can kill everything with my sword?” You’d answer: “Well on harder difficulties, enemies have damage resistence, but Orcs are very weak to fire, so I’d definitely put a few points in there.” Of which I can respond “That’s BS because I don’t play on harder difficulties.” Are you getting it now? You are choosing to be ignorant to prove your point.

[Bozorgmehr]

The overheat system is horrible. Having to (constantly) keep an eye on the (overheat) bar draws away attention that ought to be focused on your surroundings - improving combat and sightseeing. Frequent overheated weapons are a major game-breaker too; having a fixed amount of shots per clip not only makes sense but also adds more options to differentiate weapons.

A ME1 based system also kills heavy weapons.

[Admoniter]

Bozorgmehr wrote...
A ME1 based system also kills heavy weapons.

Gonna have to disagree with that, infact I think it would be easier to argue that an ME2 style ammo system kills heavy weapons. Go back to when ME2 was being developed and the Devs were touting how heavy weapons where different because they were limited in use. But really they were no more limited than any other weapon you use in ME2, sure regular weapons had more ammo drops but besides that they functioned on the same principle... find ammo, use, fund more ammo, rinse repeat.

[Murmillos]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The overheat system is horrible. Having to (constantly) keep an eye on the (overheat) bar draws away attention that ought to be focused on your surroundings - improving combat and sightseeing. Frequent overheated weapons are a major game-breaker too; having a fixed amount of shots per clip not only makes sense but also adds more options to differentiate weapons.

A ME1 based system also kills heavy weapons.

Wait.. keeping an eye on the over heat draws attention away from playing the game, but not keeping track of cool downs, your shield level, or even the ambiguous squad member life triangles?

[Sgt Stryker]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The overheat system is horrible. Having to (constantly) keep an eye on the (overheat) bar draws away attention that ought to be focused on your surroundings. 

I fail to see how keeping an eye on a steadily-increasing heat bar is any different from keeping an eye on a steadily decreasing number as you shoot. Both are located in the same area of the game screen.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

having a fixed amount of shots per clip not only makes sense but also adds more options to differentiate weapons.

How does that "make sense"? Keep in mind that the only thing thermal clips provide are a mechanism for mitigating waste heat, they do not provide ammunition. If I fire one shot out of a pistol at the beginning of a mission, put it away for the rest of the mission, and pull it out at the end, shouldn't the heat from that one shot already have radiated out to the environment? Do these heat sinks undergo some sort of irreversible chemical reaction when a shot is fired?

I will however, concede the point that thermal clips allow for greater weapon diversity, which is a plus.

Modifié par Sgt Stryker, 22 mai 2011 - 09:31 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I fail to see how keeping an eye on a steadily-increasing heat bar is any different from keeping an eye on a steadily decreasing number as you shoot. Both are located in the same area of the game screen.

The ME2 interface is changed very much like the HUD of a racer. The bottom center contains all the necessary information you need witout moving your eye too far away. It has: health and shields in a circle with changing colors instead of a progress bar, health and shield status of your squadmates and their cooldown bar is simplied to show two states: available or not. The PC has the detailed power cooldowns in the upper left corner but it's not neccessary.

The reticule has your power cooldown with the half circles closing in instead of a progress bar. Everything necessary is there intuitively.

The weapons stat on the left side is only a number, and with the limited ammo having to reload, you don't need to constantly looking at the number since you can count shots by ear and reload is a constant, predictable variable. In real combat, you don't look at this stuff, you're making split second decisions and knowing the ammo count by ear is more predictable than shooting 4 rounds and thinking in 2.3 seconds I can shoot 6 rounds, but then if shot one round before it I have to wait for cooldown. Too complicated.

The other problem with adding the weapon cooldown is that now you have a dynamic variable on top of the other cooldowns. Where do you put it? Should it be a vertical contracting circle in the reticule? And how would you keep manaing your powers while having to gauge your weapon cooldown? You'll be constantly thinking "wait, I can get off another shot if I just wait .45 seconds", whereas with a reload, it's a simple predictable, tactical mechanism. Weapons should react as an extension of your body be more effective. To have a cooldown system makes guns act like an alien device, and it becomes another minigame within the game that you have to master.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 22 mai 2011 - 09:50 .

[Murmillos]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

- adds tension and encourages active engagement. The fact you never ran out of ammo has more to do with level of difficulty. The very idea of limited ammo changes your perspective, as evidenced my by Hammerhead example, of which you've chosen to ignore.

He didn't ignore the question, he answered it.  The hammerhead doesn't work to well because it has weak armor - thus forcing the player to want to hang back. But I did find out during one mission (the 4 shield generator one..) that with the drones, the closer you are the more damage you do. Hang way back and it takes like 8 missiles to kill one. Move up supper close, and you can drop it in 2-3 hits.

- opens up more weapon designs. The cooldown system dictated DPS and it's the main reason why ME1 guns all had the same RoF and they're all automatic. It's very hard to make the Predator and the Carniflex with distinct personalities while making them balanced if they had cooldowns. Or the Viper vs the Widow. Or the Tempest vs. the Shuriken vs. the Locust. Or the Katana vs. the Scimitar.

Wait.. WAIT WAIT WAIT!! with all the flaws, mistakes, oversights and plan generic-ness of the combat system, you claim you have empirical proof that the cool down system dictated the DPS of the weapons in ME1?! Its not like that the developers had only a general concept of the weapons they wanted us to have, but not the time to different them. I mean, if 20 weapons of the like, level I thru X are any indication, it looks like you are leaping logic to try to make a point that you don't have.

You can easily make distinct personalities weapons with a cool down system. Would it be better or worse then a heatsink system - I (and you) obviously have no idea as we don't have access to the development team to test out said variables.

Of course making sure the player uses the different weapons is by making sure they have the bonus damage to health.armor.shield particulars. Regardless of class, I use the Mattock for most of my killing (its like a hand cannon with a lot more ammo). Except when it comes to enemies with heavy shields or barrier, then I break out the SMG.

That's how you make players use different weapons, not by use of limited ammo.

[Bozorgmehr]

Murmillos wrote...

Wait.. keeping an eye on the over heat draws attention away from playing the game, but not keeping track of cool downs, your shield level, or even the ambiguous squad member life triangles?

Sgt Stryker wrote...

I fail to see how keeping an eye on a steadily-increasing heat bar is any different from keeping an eye on a steadily decreasing number as you shoot. Both are located in the same area of the game screen.

I don't look at the health bar at all; there's no need - you hear Shep saying "shields down", you can hear shields break, and there's a visual effect. Down to health you get the veins, giving a good indication how (bad) you're doing.

The cooldown indicator is located inside the cross hair - the point you'll be focused on most of the time.

There's also little need to look at how many shots you've got left in your current clip. Most weapons have very limited shots/clip and reloading whenever you're not shooting/casting at the enemy will ensure your weapon will be fully loaded when needed.

Sgt Stryker wrote...

How does that "make sense"? Keep in mind that the only thing thermal clips provide are a mechanism for mitigating waste heat, they do not provide ammunition. If I fire one shot out of a pistol at the beginning of a mission, put it away for the rest of the mission, and pull it out at the end, shouldn't the heat from that one shot already have radiated out to the environment? Do these heat sinks undergo some sort of irreversible chemical reaction when a shot is fired?

I will however, concede the point that thermal clips allow for greater weapon diversity, which is a plus.

I don't think it's relevant if the RoF of weapons is limited by clip size or a heating system - their purpose is to put restrictions to weapons and a clip system simply increases the amount of different weapons who are roughly equally powerful / balanced. The overheat system an sich isn't a bad concept, I just don't like its impact on gameplay.

[The Spamming Troll]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...
Ok,  so either you cannot find the part where I made that statement either or you're putting words in my mouth again.  Once again,  try dealing with what I actually said.

You either don't get it or playing possum. You, me and anyone with half a brain would know that changing something like this based on "hey dude, like, ammos are in shooters, so let's put in ammo" is moronic. There are very valid gameplay reasons, of which I've explained to you, but you've chosen to overlook. The fact is, you initially assume that because you didn't find the reasons, therefore BW's decision is must be a moronic one. Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps your observations have been incomplete, whether you're unaware of it or not?

i dont think they are trying hard enough. what a waste to create such a handy novel mechanic like ME1s ammo system, and COMPLETELY change what it is, mainly for its similarity to other shooters. eve tho i dont think a shooter fan would be scared off by overheating weapons so much as theyd be turned off by having to choose a "class."

anyways, i dont know how firing that 1940s style pistol on lazerous station didnt blow your mind.

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The overheat system is horrible.
Having to (constantly) keep an eye on the (overheat) bar draws away
attention that ought to be focused on your surroundings - improving
combat and sightseeing. Frequent overheated weapons are a major
game-breaker too; having a fixed amount of shots per clip not only makes
sense but also adds more options to differentiate weapons.

A ME1 based system also kills heavy weapons.

you look at ammo counters in the same way you look at over heat bars. also, the overheat mechanic also had a sound indicator when your weapon waas about to overheat as well. there are alot of imersion breakers in ME2. isnt looking at red/blue/yellow floating bubbles above our enemies heads interfereing with your imersion as well?

[Murmillos]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I don't look at the health bar at all; there's no need - you hear Shep saying "shields down", you can hear shields break, and there's a visual effect. Down to health you get the veins, giving a good indication how (bad) you're doing.

The cooldown indicator is located inside the cross hair - the point you'll be focused on most of the time.

There's also little need to look at how many shots you've got left in your current clip. Most weapons have very limited shots/clip and reloading whenever you're not shooting/casting at the enemy will ensure your weapon will be fully loaded when needed.

ok.. and who says we can't add a weapon cool down or shot indicator to the cross hair area too?  Problem solved.

[Lunatic LK47]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The overheat system is horrible. Having to (constantly) keep an eye on the (overheat) bar draws away attention that ought to be focused on your surroundings - improving combat and sightseeing. Frequent overheated weapons are a major game-breaker too; having a fixed amount of shots per clip not only makes sense but also adds more options to differentiate weapons.

This. The vocal minority CONVENIENTLY forgot about the number of Infiltrator/Engineer-classed NPCs spamming Sabotage and Damping like no tomorrow, knocking us out of combat for TWO ****ING MINUTES.

[Murmillos]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
This. The vocal minority CONVENIENTLY forgot about the number of Infiltrator/Engineer-classed NPCs spamming Sabotage and Damping like no tomorrow, knocking us out of combat for TWO ****ING MINUTES.

Ok.. so what does that have to do with the cooling system?

They could have NPC in ME2 that could knock your weapon out that isn't related to heat based mechanics (ME weapons have miniature computers in them btw).

Your point is illogical.