791 réponses à ce sujet

[Lunatic LK47]

Murmillos wrote...

Ok.. so what does that have to do with the cooling system?

They could have NPC in ME2 that could knock your weapon out that isn't related to heat based mechanics (ME weapons have miniature computers in them btw).

Uh, for the fact that overt defenders of ME1's system is saying "u can avoid overheat 1f u fire burst LOLOLOL" when that is not usually the case, despite doing burst-firing? I'm decent with some shooters, but it still doesn't explain how any average joe can predict a Sabotage mine knocking out the only weapon you're proficient with.

[Sgt Stryker]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Sgt Stryker wrote...

How does that "make sense"? Keep in mind that the only thing thermal clips provide are a mechanism for mitigating waste heat, they do not provide ammunition. If I fire one shot out of a pistol at the beginning of a mission, put it away for the rest of the mission, and pull it out at the end, shouldn't the heat from that one shot already have radiated out to the environment? Do these heat sinks undergo some sort of irreversible chemical reaction when a shot is fired?

I will however, concede the point that thermal clips allow for greater weapon diversity, which is a plus.

I don't think it's relevant if the RoF of weapons is limited by clip size or a heating system - their purpose is to put restrictions to weapons and a clip system simply increases the amount of different weapons who are roughly equally powerful / balanced. The overheat system an sich isn't a bad concept, I just don't like its impact on gameplay.

Wait. How does any of that have anything to do with what I posted?

[Murmillos]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

Ok.. so what does that have to do with the cooling system?

They could have NPC in ME2 that could knock your weapon out that isn't related to heat based mechanics (ME weapons have miniature computers in them btw).

Uh, for the fact that overt defenders of ME1's system is saying "u can avoid overheat 1f u fire burst LOLOLOL" when that is not usually the case, despite doing burst-firing? I'm decent with some shooters, but it still doesn't explain how any average joe can predict a Sabotage mine knocking out the only weapon you're proficient with.

Ok.. .and?

Sabotage is a talent based mechanic and has NOTHING to do with the ammo/heat-sink management in which we been discussing.

[tonnactus]

Clonedzero wrote...

i have absolutely NO idea how people were having ammo issues in ME2.

The issue is collecting ammo after fight to make sure to have enough in the next.Its sucks like hell and is a bloody waste of time.If weapons refilled/ammo is picked up automaticly after each fight,no one would bother.

[Bozorgmehr]

Murmillos wrote...

ok.. and who says we can't add a weapon cool down or shot indicator to the cross hair area too?  Problem solved.

The problem with overheating is its randomness. Having to look at another variable which doesn't add anything in terms of gameplay isn't the solution imo. The point is how many shots can be fired in a specific amount of time. A clip system puts a constant limit on all weapons - overheating is completely random feature b/c if it isn't there is no point anyway. A random variable cannot be (easily) incorporated into a playstyle; a clip system can - which makes it superior.

Please explain how you would design heavy weapons without ammo; how ME2 weapons like the Shuriken, Vindicator and Incisor would fit in; how to make Carnifex and Predator work without ruining balance?

[Tony Gunslinger]

Murmillos wrote...

He didn't ignore the question, he answered it.  The hammerhead doesn't work to well because it has weak armor - thus forcing the player to want to hang back. But I did find out during one mission (the 4 shield generator one..) that with the drones, the closer you are the more damage you do. Hang way back and it takes like 8 missiles to kill one. Move up supper close, and you can drop it in 2-3 hits.

And what if the Hammerhead has 50 missiles and that ammo pickup are available after you killed the enemy? The analogy is about unlimited vs limited ammo. (Edit: I knew there was some dmg modiifer, thanks for clearing that up)

Wait.. WAIT WAIT WAIT!! with all the flaws, mistakes, oversights and plan generic-ness of the combat system, you claim you have empirical proof that the cool down system dictated the DPS of the weapons in ME1?! Its not like that the developers had only a general concept of the weapons they wanted us to have, but not the time to different them. I mean, if 20 weapons of the like, level I thru X are any indication, it looks like you are leaping logic to try to make a point that you don't have.

Which is easier:

a) make 4 assault rifles with different damage, different RoF (some automatic, some semi, some burst), ammo capacity, rounds per clip and make them competive with each other

or make 4 assault rifles rifles with the same automatic RoF but change the damage, accuracy bonus, and cooldown and make them competetive with each other

Obviously ME1 chose .

I've given this example but nobody remembers for some odd reason <_<

The Predator shoots 12 rounds @ 37.2 dmg, 300RPM and the Carniflex 6 rounds @ 85.4, 145RPM. Both guns can empty their clip in roughly 2.4 secs. But the Carniflex deals 512.4 dmg compared to the Predator's 446.4. So what's the thing that keeps the Carniflex from being the better gun? It's capacity.

To balance these guns out in ME1's cooldown system, the Carniflex would have to change, either its damage, heat buldup per round, rate of fire. Let's say change it so after 5 shots you need to cool down. Great right? Balanced and everything. Except that it's 5 shots, some arbrary number. Ok, then let's make it 6 shots and lower the damage. Well now the Carniflex is just a mathematical excerise. It deals the same damage as the Predator with 6 shots. What's so special between the two guns?

Why should I design guns under this constraint? Why can't I make awesome unique guns that are totally different just because some people don't like collecting ammo but love collecting medkits?

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 22 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[Murmillos]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

He didn't ignore the question, he answered it.  The hammerhead doesn't work to well because it has weak armor - thus forcing the player to want to hang back. But I did find out during one mission (the 4 shield generator one..) that with the drones, the closer you are the more damage you do. Hang way back and it takes like 8 missiles to kill one. Move up supper close, and you can drop it in 2-3 hits.

And what if the Hammerhead has 50 missiles and that ammo pickup are available after you killed the enemy? The analogy is about unlimited vs limited ammo. (Edit: I knew there was some dmg modiifer, thanks for clearing that up)

The question would be, why are we picking up missiles from killed drones. Everything else with them explodes except for more missiles? Besides on just being able to do that, there has to be a logical reason.

Wait.. WAIT WAIT WAIT!! with all the flaws, mistakes, oversights and plan generic-ness of the combat system, you claim you have empirical proof that the cool down system dictated the DPS of the weapons in ME1?! Its not like that the developers had only a general concept of the weapons they wanted us to have, but not the time to different them. I mean, if 20 weapons of the like, level I thru X are any indication, it looks like you are leaping logic to try to make a point that you don't have.

Which is easier:

a) make 4 assault rifles with different damage, different RoF (some automatic, some semi, some burst), ammo capacity, rounds per clip and make them competive with each other

or make 4 assault rifles rifles with the same automatic RoF but change the damage, accuracy bonus, and cooldown and make them competetive with each other

Obviously ME1 chose .

I've given this example but nobody remembers for some odd reason <_<

Yep, and nobody will disagree that it was a bad choice.

The Predator shoots 12 rounds @ 37.2 dmg, 300RPM and the Carniflex 6 rounds @ 85.4, 145RPM. Both guns can empty their clip in roughly 2.4 secs. But the Carniflex deals 512.4 dmg compared to the Predator's 446.4. So what's the thing that keeps the Carniflex from being the better gun? It's capacity.

To balance these guns out in ME1's cooldown system, the Carniflex would have to change, either its damage, heat buldup per round, rate of fire. Let's say change it so after 5 shots you need to cool down. Great right? Balanced and everything. Except that it's 5 shots, some arbrary number. Ok, then let's make it 6 shots and lower the damage. Well now the Carniflex is just a mathematical excerise. It deals the same damage as the Predator with 6 shots. What's so special between the two guns?

Your above example would still work in a cool down system. The trade off is still the same amount of damage you do with each shot. With the Carniflex, each shot needs to count - designed for closer encounters because even one miss is that much potential damage lost. The Predator allows for more shots, but one missing shot isn't going as noticeable.

[tonnactus]

jellmoo32 wrote...

The only issue I have is that "ammo" is a decidedly non-issue on the default difficulty level.

Its not even a issue on insanity.Its just a waste of time,nothing more.

[Halo Quea]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

It's just so stupid.   Someone took the time to create a logical, scientific weapon and ammo system based on micro mass acceleration.  Essentially putting a calculated mass driver inside every hand held weapon.  A self suspended projectile that at no time comes in contact with any internal parts after it's been sliced from the block.

And now it suddenly needs a thermal clip. 

Well, waste heat must be managed. Look at the modern Railguns. They produce plasma when fired!
Quite a sight, just look them up on youtube.

***********************************


So if we can't really get around having waste heat, than that must be mitigated.

In ME1, excluding the Master Gear rewards, improved weapon models could fire more rounds before overheating, but they could still overheat, so at times they would have to be shot slower.

Then Heat Sinks and Frictionless Materials were available as an after-market modification for weapons, but those seem rare in-game, so maybe also rare in-universe for Small Arms? That's plausible enough IMHO.


Than Thermal Clips were than introduced for ME2, that at least in theory made weapons superior to those without the improved heat mitigation. The next step is filling in the details as to how that is the case. And retrofitting older weapons with Thermal Clips seems common enough, as the Mattock and Locust descriptions mention that they are older weapons and use Thermal Clips.

Also,Shotguns and SMG's can double their total number of shots in ME2, so I see no reason why further improvements would not be made for Thermal Clips in ME3.

So with things as they are, I'd rather throw out plausible solutions for troublesome gameplay mechanics to make the combat experience better for everyone, since that's where the problems seem to be.
And even though I enjoy ME2 combat as is, MOAR improvements are always welcome for ME3.

Interesting points, the problem is that when we talk about thermal clips I assume that we're talking about thermal magnetic heat transfer. And that's where Bioware outsmarted themselves,  Heat transfer for a mass driven projectile wouldn't necessarily need a thermal clip as a solution for heat mitigation, certainly not at the origin of the mass driver's block where these clips seem to be placed.  Not that the place of the clip is all that important to begin with.  Especially when one considers the dark matter that ezo produces.  So basically each time we fire a weapon.............a dark matter phenomenon occurs.  lol!

But imaginary elements aside, heat could be dampened either by the mass driver's magnetic field along the shaft or rail of the weapon better than the provided thermal clips.   And consider this Praetor, that same magnetic field under different conditions can also produce cold.   But all of this gets thrown out of the window because when we talk about the weapons in ME, we're not talking about Navy sized rail guns that put out turbulent heat, we're talking about slugs no larger than a grain.   Those are far easier to manage and you have a computer making the precise numerical calculations each time the weapon is fired.

So again, what is the thermal clip there for?  And honestly if these weapons heat up that much and to the degree that Bioware describes in it's explaination, you could take those ejected clips and cook a 25lb turkey for several hours without them ever cooling off.  

In other words, THEY WOULD BE TO HOT TO PICK UP.    The person who picked them up with their bare hands would have their fingers incinerated.

[TheRealIncarnal]

I won't judge it until I see it first hand.

I'll just say that I personally really enjoyed the change of pace that the ME1 system provided, and feel that the ME2 system was poorly implemented. That combination made the issue more glaring that anything else.

[Kakistos_]

EMailakaSrFox wrote...

Because Bioware wanted a more shooter shooter rpg than an rpg rpg shooter.

If you are referring to the series on a whole, I don't buy that. ME1 had far more RPG traits than Shooter traits. I have no doubt that if they truly intended for the series to be shooter dominant, ME1 would have had more Shooter elements.

[Iakus]

Phaedon wrote...

I don't see why people won't accept clips, lore-wise.

1) "The galaxy can't have switched in 2,5 years!"
Wrong. Are today's PCs the same as the PCs we had 3 years ago?

Of course, some people wait 5-6 years or more before getting new PCs

But it's not the fact that people switched over in just a couple of years, it's that the changeover was so complete and total.  From the Citadel to the Quarian Flotilla, Tuchanka to Illium and every dirtbag merc base in between, all switched their weapons over in less than three years.  Every.  Single.  One.   In fact, the only possible explanation for the thorough saturation of thermal clips must be time travel, given where they turn up (Jacob's loyalty mission)

And that's leaving aside that all thermal clips seem to be compatable with all technoogy.  Doesn't matter if it's human, geth, or Collector weapons

[Murmillos]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Please explain how you would design heavy weapons without ammo; how ME2 weapons like the Shuriken, Vindicator and Incisor would fit in; how to make Carnifex and Predator work without ruining balance?

To note, I never said I had a problem with heavy weapons needing ammo. They are a new system, so the are allowed pass to use the new system. Its using ammo for the existing system I (and many of us) have the problem with.

Shuriken: Easy, the weapons strength lies in high burst damage, at a cost of distance damage. Think of it as a shotgun, but instead of damage at low fire right, its low damage at ultra high fire rate.
Vindicator: There is an issue? What you are trying to imply?
Incisor: Again, whats the issue with the 3 round burst weapons? You shoot, you get heat, you don't shoot, they cool down. Simple enough to understand.

As stated before, Carnifex is designed for heavy hitting -making each shot count, Predator is designed for those who like to hang back and lay out a more constant damage or may be more prone to missing.

Modifié par Murmillos, 22 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Excellent post, iakus. That's really my biggest gripe with thermal clips. I do not see how fancy new tech can totally replace existing, reliable working tech in such a short timeframe. This holds especially true in places that can't exactly afford to get the latest, newest tech (the Flotilla, Tuchanka, Omega, backwater human colonies in the Terminus systems), or places that are literally incommunicado with the rest of the Galaxy (the Hugo Gernsback wreck).

Justify out however you want, but it all reeks of a shoddy attempt at giving some semblance of an in-universe explanation for a radical gameplay change.

[The Spamming Troll]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

ok.. and who says we can't add a weapon cool down or shot indicator to the cross hair area too?  Problem solved.

The problem with overheating is its randomness. Having to look at another variable which doesn't add anything in terms of gameplay isn't the solution imo. The point is how many shots can be fired in a specific amount of time. A clip system puts a constant limit on all weapons - overheating is completely random feature b/c if it isn't there is no point anyway. A random variable cannot be (easily) incorporated into a playstyle; a clip system can - which makes it superior.

the overheat mechanic wasnt random. weapons didnt overheat after a random amount of time.

an overheat mechanic limits shots fired in a very similar way that ammo does, you just dont have to reload constantly, your weapon does that for you. the canrnifax might take 6 shots before it needs a reload, while the ME1 pistol would take 6 shots before it needed to be cooled off. theres no diference in the two, other then ME1 allows for faster gunplay without having to reload by the 12th shot, while ME2 calls for picking your shots, if nessesary for you.

personally i wanted ME1 weapons. not a hybrid, but an overheat mechanic that couldnt be shot forever. thats the only complaint ive ever seen about ME1s weapons, and its not even valid becasue your never overheat wepaons DPS sucked compared to someone that modded their gun to do something differently. ive really never understand that complaint "my gun fires forever because i modded it that way." i wonder if that had any relation to why alot of people comlained about insanity taking too long. its because you are using a pea shooter.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 23 mai 2011 - 12:09 .

[CajNatalie]

And so the lore remains broken. =/

I've accepted the ME2 system now as a gameplay mechanic and nothing more... badly done, though, as you have to scrounge for clips between battles like a vorcha, and you go out with such a nonsensically small amount of ammo for taking on an entire base despite apparently being some so-called elite.
It would be nice if things... y'know... stopped making no sense in ME3 with thermal clips.

The whole subject people are going on about with how suddenly, everyone, everywhere, even the Hugo Gernsback crew (who were stranded since before the introduction of clips), magically upgraded to the new 'state of the art' system is especially troublesome.

[Aurellia]

Phaedon wrote...

I don't see why people won't accept clips, lore-wise.

1) "The galaxy can't have switched in 2,5 years!"
Wrong. Are today's PCs the same as the PCs we had 3 years ago?

2) "But that's completely different!"
Nope. The cheaper a technology gets, the more quickly it advances. On top of that, this is the biggest conflict since the Krogan Rebellions, and the codex states that weapon upgrades are cheap and weapons are easy to modify.

3) Heatsinks>Thermal Clips
They may sound good for slow-paced long ranged combat, but believe me, they are certain death for CQB with an AI. Not to mention, that heatsinks use the same concept as thermal clips, you have to replace those too, you just don't do it as often.

I can accept the arguments that game play is a bit more "strategic" but to argue this from a lore perspective is challenging.  

The most important part of waging any war is supply lines.  If you have two groups of 100 soldiers in a jungle and one group has ME style 1 type guns and the other has ME 2 type guns, who is going to win?

As long as the ME1 group doesn't get pulled into a trap of some kind the ME2 group will eventually run out of thermal clips and their guns will cease functioning.  After this they will be easy prey for the ME1 group.  

It is hard to imagine any sane military trading in their virtually unlimited ammo guns with overheat for ones that stop working after a few minutes of firing in the middle of combat.  At most you each soldier would carry a mix of both kinds.

IMHO, a good move here would be to make pistols work like ME1 and other guns work like ME2

Modifié par bioware-sucks, 23 mai 2011 - 06:34 .

[marshalleck]

CajNatalie wrote...

And so the lore remains broken. =/

I've accepted the ME2 system now as a gameplay mechanic and nothing more... badly done, though, as you have to scrounge for clips between battles like a vorcha, and you go out with such a nonsensically small amount of ammo for taking on an entire base despite apparently being some so-called elite.
It would be nice if things... y'know... stopped making no sense in ME3 with thermal clips.

The whole subject people are going on about with how suddenly, everyone, everywhere, even the Hugo Gernsback crew (who were stranded since before the introduction of clips), magically upgraded to the new 'state of the art' system is especially troublesome.

Easy fix: delete the lore. Which is what Bioware should have done in the first place, instead of trying to play this stupid partial retcon game. 

[The Spamming Troll]

bioware-sucks wrote...

IMHO, a good move here would be to make pistols work like ME1 and other guns work 

...the other guns work like ME2, you meant?   well, i really like this idea. itd be awesome if something gave me that nastolgic thrill of ME1.

honestly, this would be an awesome idea.

[moneycashgeorge]

I am very disappointed that they are staying with the same generic system.

Tell me this, what possible reason could there be to not have a hybrid system?

The only answer is that they are intentionally trying to make the game mechanics as generic as possible.

A hybrid system could work beautifully, and could open up a whole range of different tactics and weapon modification strategies.

This decision goes against gameplay innovation, uniqueness, and the established lore. It is incredibly stupid.

If Bioware had any sense on this matter, they would implement a system like this:


Every weapon starts at 0% heat. Every weapon's fire has a predetermined heat effect. SMG's could have .5% heat per round, while the Widow Sniper Rifle could have 50% heat per round. Heat per Round could be decreased by mods. Each weapon would also have a heat dissipation rate, i.e. 1% dissipated per second. Dissipation rate could be increased by mods.

If a weapon reaches 100% it overheats and can not be used for a short time. At any time you could use one of the heat sinks from your universal pool to instantly bring the heat on your current weapon back to 0%.

The above system would be the tactical, strategic, and unique ammo system of any shooter. It would significantly elevate the quality of mass effect 3. It fits perfectly in the established canon of both games. But no, sadly Bioware is no longer willing to take risks and make something truly great.

[Bluefuse]

Solution:

We should need to reload for ME3, but have unlimited clips on us. Ammo shouldn't be an issue. We only need to reload to put a fresh unheated clip in our gun so that it can shoot more. No more scavenging for clips.

Modifié par Bluefuse, 23 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[InvincibleHero]

moneycashgeorge wrote...

I am very disappointed that they are staying with the same generic system.

Tell me this, what possible reason could there be to not have a hybrid system?

The only answer is that they are intentionally trying to make the game mechanics as generic as possible.

A hybrid system could work beautifully, and could open up a whole range of different tactics and weapon modification strategies.

This decision goes against gameplay innovation, uniqueness, and the established lore. It is incredibly stupid.

If Bioware had any sense on this matter, they would implement a system like this:


Every weapon starts at 0% heat. Every weapon's fire has a predetermined heat effect. SMG's could have .5% heat per round, while the Widow Sniper Rifle could have 50% heat per round. Heat per Round could be decreased by mods. Each weapon would also have a heat dissipation rate, i.e. 1% dissipated per second. Dissipation rate could be increased by mods.

If a weapon reaches 100% it overheats and can not be used for a short time. At any time you could use one of the heat sinks from your universal pool to instantly bring the heat on your current weapon back to 0%.

The above system would be the tactical, strategic, and unique ammo system of any shooter. It would significantly elevate the quality of mass effect 3. It fits perfectly in the established canon of both games. But no, sadly Bioware is no longer willing to take risks and make something truly great.

You realize they could make your gun overheat on exactly the same number of shots as in ME2 and make cooldowns 10 seconds which forces you to yep use a heat sink.

People want it to be too easy. Benefits without consequence.

As for the searching part so most of you don't go looking everywhere for credits and schematics and safes and such anyway? Yeah right most are conveniently placed with other stuff you want to gather anyway.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 23 mai 2011 - 04:19 .

[moneycashgeorge]

"You realize they could make your gun overheat on exactly the same number of shots as in ME2 and make cooldowns 10 seconds which forces you to yep use a heat sink.

People want it to be too easy. Benefits without consequence."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it definitely is not a response to what i said

[InvincibleHero]

moneycashgeorge wrote...

"You realize they could make your gun overheat on exactly the same number of shots as in ME2 and make cooldowns 10 seconds which forces you to yep use a heat sink.

People want it to be too easy. Benefits without consequence."

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean, but it definitely is not a response to what i said

They can make it exactly the same with the hybrid system. Or they can make it worse such as after 10 shots your avenger overheats instead of the 30 or 40 whatever it is for say a shorter period 3 seconds, but still. Call me a cynic what people want is to keep the same rate of fire as in ME2 but pop off 37 of 40 shots and wait 1-2 seconds and pop off another 37 shots with no consequence. If they need to they want to not wait that period and use a heat sink.

That's why they dropped the hybrid system likely made it too easy. Short cooldown means not having to use heatsinks ever and having a long cooldown makes it just like ME2 forcing you to use heatsink. SO exactly why would they do it.