791 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluko]

Well there's really no point in arguing about Thermal Clips as they are since it seems like the Devs are rather absolute on sticking with it. While I disagree with its addition and greatly dislike the damage it's done to the series lore. The idea that it's been universally accepted galaxy wide after 2 years is silly and the fact the Geth would create an inefficient system is laughable. The only benefit to Thermal Clips is that tech abilities can no longer be used permanently overheat a weapon. The facts that it forces you to pause to "reload" and that you have a limited supply are major steps backwards. Maybe good for gameplay, but the reasoning for its existence is just plain stupid.

(Is it not funny how Bioware created a decent explanation for ME1 as to why enemies have essentially unlimited ammo, but now in ME2 there is no such excuse?)

It would have been far more believeable (and worked better with what was already established) if weapons simply used their Ammo Blocks faster.  Simply put weapons could have been easily adjusted via the internal computer to shave off larger rounds to do more damage. Since damage is largely determined by f=ma and the shape of the projectile. So rather then Thermal Clips you would have regular old Ammo Clips. The only possible issue with this is it wouldn't explain the non-usage of tech against weapons, but seeing as that was purely gameplay reasoning from the start they could simply just not have enemies do that anymore.  Although you coud just have said mods were added by most professional forces that effectively vent heat, rendering such abilities largely inneffective.

But the damage is done now. So really all I can do is offer suggestions to make the current system better.

-Add larger ammo reserves. Seriously most shooters these days have fairly generous ammo reserves, because it really doesn't add to the game to make it so small that you must constantly hunt for ammo. The only exception is in multiplayer games and survival games to place emphasis on not wasting a single shot. Given that Mass Effect usually has you facing large groups of enemies and it isn't  really a survival game, such a constraint really does nothing to enhance the game. (It's inevitable you will need many rounds to kill many enemies.)

Now some weapons in ME2 are relatively well balanced in this regard, others not so much. The ways ME2 is designed is that for the majority of the game ARs and SMGs are the only truly efficient weapons and render pistols, shotguns, and snipers fairly obsolete. This seems rather shoddy to me since really you should use the weapon that's best for the situation. I would suggest the following:

Assault Rifles
M-8 Avenger: 40/480 (12 Clips)
M-15 Vindicator: 24/144 (6 Clips)
Revenant: 80/480 (6 Clips)

Sub-Machine Guns
M-4 Shuriken: 24/240 (10 Clips) 
M-9 Tempest: 50/500 (10 Clips)

Pistols
M-3 Predator: 12/96 (10 Clips)
M-6 Carnifex: 6/60 (10 Clips)

Shotguns
M-23 Katana: 5/50 (10 Clips)
M-27 Scimatar: 8/72 (10 Clips)
M-300 Claymore: 1/20 (20 Rounds)

Sniper Rifles
M-92 Mantis: 1/24 (24 Rounds)
M-97 Viper: 12/72  (6 Clips)
M-98 Widow: 1/18 (18 Rounds)

This would seem fairly reasonable to me. This leaves you with generous ammo limits for an enagement, but not so much to the point where you can blindy waste shots.

-Make Thermal Clips Universal. As they are in ME2 Thermal Clips are not universally used between weapons. This seems like a bit of contradiction given that this is what the Codex states. Although yes when Thermal Clips are picked they add to each Ammo Reserve. The only problem is they do not always seem to add in a fair manner. In order to keep it as simple as possible I'd say 1 Thermal Clip=1 Clip or 2 Rounds  for each weapon.

Of course it would really be nice if all weapons used one Ammo Reserve. I realize this could be difficult to implement due to the manner in which weapons consume shots make it difficult. Though if it could be done it would certainly make the game far more interesting and differentiate from most other shooters.

My only other suggestion is that individual shots should not be saved, since this encourages players just to constantly reload and reload only when favorable to them. If individual shots are not saved then that would place real emphasis and danger on making Thermal Clip reloads count. In essence player should only reload when their ammo is out or very low in combat.

-Add more Ammo Supply Areas/Less Enemy Drops. Let's be honest nobody really likes picking up ammo from dead enemies. Walking over dead body to magically get more ammunition gets to be a tedious/grizzly affair. Really players should only loot the dead for weapons and ammo when they are in emergency need.

Rather instead of making players go look for every dead body in the room have the convenient ammo crate lying around that will fully resupply Shepard. Instead of looking for dead bodies you now only really have to locate the re-supply. You still have to pick up ammo to keep immersion. The reason ammo crates are better is:

1) They can be strategically placed. This helps ensure better game balance especially when dealing with higher difficulties. There is no issue of players relying on enemy drops. This also minimizes the loses incurred from using Biotics.
2) They can be added to increase or decrease difficulty. Want to make a mission more challenging? Simple leave less ammo crates around for the player. This forces the player to be even more considerate as to how they will use their respective weapons through-out the mission.
3) They are more sensible. Realy it's lucky that enemies always seem to drop a good amount of ammo when they themselves may have little to nothing left. Realistically an ammo crate would always have a reasonable amount of supply and would only be used after engagments. 

There's already convenient exploding barrels everywhere, so why not add ammo crates to the mix. It makes sense that most Militaries and Merc groups would have that sort of stuff lying around.

Actually a radical suggestion: get rid of enemy ammo drops and have all ammunition come from ammo crates. This truly forces players to play smart and approach things tactically. You can no longer walk over dead enemies and magically receive ammo to keep fighting. You've got to use what you got and survive til you can resupply. However in truly dire situations the player can still pick up an enemy weapon in order to keep fighting.

[Sgt Stryker]

InvincibleHero wrote...

That's why they dropped the hybrid system likely made it too easy. Short cooldown means not having to use heatsinks ever and having a long cooldown makes it just like ME2 forcing you to use heatsink. SO exactly why would they do it.

I think the general concensus here is that including a long cooldown would help the lore, without helping or harming the gameplay. It would reinforce the fact that the number you see in the lower-left corner does not measure number of remaining bullets, but measures the remaining heat capacity of the currently chambered sink. When that sink reaches capacity, you hit the Eject key and the gun cycles in a fresh one.

[InvincibleHero]

Sgt Stryker wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

That's why they dropped the hybrid system likely made it too easy. Short cooldown means not having to use heatsinks ever and having a long cooldown makes it just like ME2 forcing you to use heatsink. SO exactly why would they do it.

I think the general concensus here is that including a long cooldown would help the lore, without helping or harming the gameplay. It would reinforce the fact that the number you see in the lower-left corner does not measure number of remaining bullets, but measures the remaining heat capacity of the currently chambered sink. When that sink reaches capacity, you hit the Eject key and the gun cycles in a fresh one.

I think it already does that. I know the one shot with widow means it generates the heat equivalent of 24 smg round not that I only have one ammo shot. The problem is with people's perception not the system per se.

People wanting passive cooldown should answer these Qs not that BW did in ME1 either though: 1. How does it eliminate that much heat in such a short time? 2. Where does the heat go? Important because you know it could melt the skin off your hand ignite munitions nearby and on your person. 3. Why doesn't it explode sometimes when you overheat the heat sink? I think that would be perfectly reasonable and render you weaponless. 4.. You were happy carrying 150 suits of krogan armor in ME1 but complain about picking up a few heat sinks why? Runs

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 23 mai 2011 - 05:23 .

[Murmillos]

InvincibleHero wrote...
 4.. You were happy carrying 150 suits of krogan armor in ME1 but complain about picking up a few heat sinks why? Runs

Are you going to make a real argument, or are you going to try to debate with useless semantics?

Nobody liked the inventory system of ME1; and what in the hell does that have to do with not liking the new ammo system?

Modifié par Murmillos, 23 mai 2011 - 05:24 .

[Murmillos]

!doublepost!

Modifié par Murmillos, 23 mai 2011 - 05:24 .

[InvincibleHero]

Murmillos wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 4.. You were happy carrying 150 suits of krogan armor in ME1 but complain about picking up a few heat sinks why? Runs

Are you going to make a real argument, or are you going to try to debate with useless semantics?

Nobody liked the inventory system of ME1; and what in the hell does that have to do with not liking the new ammo system?

If you didn't know 4 was a joke though the vast majority against heat sinks in ME2 seem to be ME1 purists. You didn't answer any of the 3 valid qs though.

[wizardryforever]

Murmillos wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 4.. You were happy carrying 150 suits of krogan armor in ME1 but complain about picking up a few heat sinks why? Runs

Are you going to make a real argument, or are you going to try to debate with useless semantics?

Nobody liked the inventory system of ME1; and what in the hell does that have to do with not liking the new ammo system?

The argument that spending 5 seconds picking up thermal clips after a combat (when they're probably on your way anyway) is tedious and boring, and yet, the same people saying this are the ones who want a huge cumbersome inventory back.  At least, I think that's what he's trying to say.

[Admoniter]

wizardryforever wrote...
The argument that spending 5 seconds picking up thermal clips after a combat (when they're probably on your way anyway) is tedious and boring, and yet, the same people saying this are the ones who want a huge cumbersome inventory back.  At least, I think that's what he's trying to say.

Buddy I don't think anybody wants ME1s inventory back; not even ME1 purists want it, it was that bad but as bad as it was it is better than nothing.

[Murmillos]

wizardryforever wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 4.. You were happy carrying 150 suits of krogan armor in ME1 but complain about picking up a few heat sinks why? Runs

Are you going to make a real argument, or are you going to try to debate with useless semantics?

Nobody liked the inventory system of ME1; and what in the hell does that have to do with not liking the new ammo system?

The argument that spending 5 seconds picking up thermal clips after a combat (when they're probably on your way anyway) is tedious and boring, and yet, the same people saying this are the ones who want a huge cumbersome inventory back.  At least, I think that's what he's trying to say.

No, thats what they think we want when we say we want some type of "inventory".  We loth ME1 inventory  just as much as everybody else, but we don't think that the no inventory was the required solution either.  Thats the problem with people like him, they assume that there are only two ways in the world to anything with in Mass Effect, the way ME1 did it.. or ME2 way - nothing else.

[Fixers0]

I've been working latley on Mass Effect 2 gameplay and story redesign and I have made couple of good ideas, such as different types of ammo and actuatl therma clips pools instead of reserece 'ammo ', I will post them later.

[Dem_B]

For me, the system of thermal clips is not comfortable, because I'm not a fan of shooters. 
For a more comfortable game I had to change. Ini file with settings of weapons.
For me as for someone who played Mass Effect 1 thermal cell is a fraud, because now only I run out of ammo.

Some time ago, I wrote my thoughts about creating a hybrid system is overheating and thermal clips.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/4905371/1#4906860
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/5467618#5468130

I do hope that the mechanics of weapons will be different from me2 thermal clips otherwise will have to edit. Ini file, but I just want to enjoy a comfortable gaming.
Many people do not like the thermal clips. I hope the developers will not ignore us.
 

Modifié par Dem_B, 23 mai 2011 - 05:50 .

[Murmillos]

InvincibleHero wrote...

People wanting passive cooldown should answer these Qs not that BW did in ME1 either though:
1. How does it eliminate that much heat in such a short time?
2. Where does the heat go?  Important because you know it could melt the skin off your hand ignite munitions nearby and on your person.
3. Why doesn't it explode sometimes when you overheat the heat sink? I think that would be perfectly reasonable and render you weaponless.

I'll give you an answer.

1) To answer your question, I need to know "how much heat"... are we talking like CPU heat amount.. Car engine heat amount.. raging forest fire inferno heat amount?  

2) Where does the heat go?  Well, perhaps the CPU fins&fan could give us a clue.. or maybe a radiator on a car. 

3) Because like most things which get damaged when subjected to heat, have an auto shut down before they reach critical.  Like some diesel generators, the water temp normally allows normal operation at 180°F, but they shut down when the water temp reaches 220-240°F.  Because if it gets any hotter, the engine WOULD start to get damaged, but it shuts down ever before that happens.

Same thing for the terminal clips, they could be rated to handle say 2-3 more shots then what you typically eject them at. So that way the weapon is never at critical point, just at the upper end of the recomended safe limits.  Nobody would want a gun that would randomly explode when it overheated.

[Zinoviy]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

So basically ME3 is a big beta test for biowares upcoming shot at a shooter

Derpville citizens not allowed in this forum.

[Mr. MannlyMan]

wizardryforever wrote...

Murmillos wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
 4.. You were happy carrying 150 suits of krogan armor in ME1 but complain about picking up a few heat sinks why? Runs

Are you going to make a real argument, or are you going to try to debate with useless semantics?

Nobody liked the inventory system of ME1; and what in the hell does that have to do with not liking the new ammo system?

The argument that spending 5 seconds picking up thermal clips after a combat (when they're probably on your way anyway) is tedious and boring, and yet, the same people saying this are the ones who want a huge cumbersome inventory back.  At least, I think that's what he's trying to say.

A "deeper" inventory with more options for customization does not and should NOT = ME1's cumbersome inventory.

Good god man, find me someone who actually liked the disorganized, slow inventory for its flaws and I will personally cram my Fist of Death down said person's esophagus. You can't assume that someone's preference for one system over another means that they're happy with the flaws that come with it. Improvement is always welcome; removing features just because you failed at them the first time doesn't make that the best design choice, though. Imagine if Assassin's Creed 2 hadn't bothered with side missions after the flak they recieved for their implementation in the first game.

[Ksandor]

Phaedon wrote...

 A really short thread guys, but I felt the need to do this.

Christina Norman tweeted this, a few hours ago:
"We are continuing to use thermal clips in me3, there will be other changes to weapons but no me1-style regenerating ammo"

So...yeah. No regenerating ammo, at least not the kind that ME1 had.

I have to say that the concept in ME1 was interesting, since it introduced a new burst-fired centered and ammo management approach, but the execution was not that good.

Saying that the ME2 system is terrible is a bit silly if you ask me. 95% of all shooters use that system, so I suppose that you find them all terrible. Sorry, I can't help but frown at such extreme arguments.

Anyway, I suppose it sounds a bit hypocritical to say that I respect this decision, while I often supported innovation in the past (and present). But hear me out;

Bioware has promised for a lot more diversity when it comes to weapons. There even appears to be a laser rifle as well as a pulse rifle. Now, if they go with the traditional approach, as they hint, the player's focus will naturally shift, in my opinion, from ammo management to other properties of the weapon. Such as, rate of fire, unique properties (particle beam etc.), the special effect that it has on types of enemies, etc.

I think that that is a very interesting approach, and while I will not support it until I learn more about it, I certainly respect it.

Just my 0.02 €

NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! No laser rifles please! ME franchise is original because very few scifi TV shows feature projectile weapons (like Battlestar Galactica remake). We have enough lasers and phasers between Star Trek and Star Wars . Particle beams yes, but lasers? Lasers are not energetic enough to be viable personal weapons anyway. Bioware you do not need to appeal very casual fan. Be specific, be distinct and differentiate. Create your own style. Mass Effec 3 is not a super supreme mixed pizza!

[Kaylord]

I don´t respect it. Deus Ex 2 got totally crucified because they introduced generic ammo, and ME 2 gets away with it just like that.
This clip system is coupled with a stoneage loot mechanism which insults the roleplayer´s intelligence. They could have used the innovative system of ME1 and just prevent endless firing by tweaking the heat-buildup-ratio.

[tonnactus]

Kaylord wrote...

I don´t respect it. Deus Ex 2 got totally crucified because they introduced generic ammo, and ME 2 gets away with it just like that.
This clip system is coupled with a stoneage loot mechanism which insults the roleplayer´s intelligence. They could have used the innovative system of ME1 and just prevent endless firing by tweaking the heat-buildup-ratio.

Christina Normans philosophy seems to be to always take the easy way out: Rather then fix a system with little tweaks,scrap it alltogether.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 mai 2011 - 11:30 .

[Someone With Mass]

Ksandor wrote...
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! No laser rifles please! ME franchise is original because very few scifi TV shows feature projectile weapons (like Battlestar Galactica remake). We have enough lasers and phasers between Star Trek and Star Wars . Particle beams yes, but lasers? Lasers are not energetic enough to be viable personal weapons anyway. Bioware you do not need to appeal very casual fan. Be specific, be distinct and differentiate. Create your own style. Mass Effec 3 is not a super supreme mixed pizza!

GARDIAN lasers. Your point is very invalid.

Also, lasers ignores barriers, so you can stop your over the top whining right there. 

[Bozorgmehr]

Kaylord wrote...

This clip system is coupled with a stoneage loot mechanism which insults the roleplayer´s intelligence. They could have used the innovative system of ME1 and just prevent endless firing by tweaking the heat-buildup-ratio.

What's a 21th century loot mechanism? Also, explain why unlimited ammo 'improves' loot b/c isn't picking up weapons and their appropriate ammo an important part of looting?

You clearly haven't got a clue what innovation is. Designing a car with rectangular 'wheels' is innovative; it's something different innit, but it does not improve the driving experience much. Innovation means doing something better; not worse.

Unlimited ammo LIMITS the amount of possible weapons that can be created without destroying balance; if less weapons (read: only a couple) is what you prefer - might be good for your loot-system perhaps? - unlimited ammo is the way to go. If you like a big arsenal to choose from instead; ammo has to be incorporated.

[SalsaDMA]

As long as a detailed description of how the thermal clips and heat sinks works haven't become part of the lore, people claiming the ME2 mechanic is unrealistic is just doing so with their own interpretations.

What we DO know about them is this:
-Thermal clips are the containers carrying material for heat sinks.
-Heat sinks are stored internally in a weapon.
-Heat sinks have a distinct shape when ejected from a weapon (A shape and size that doesn't fit too well with the shape and size of thermal clips, btw)
-Heat sinks are adaptive. Ie. It depends on the heatproducing capability of the weapon how much heat sink material is used to keep the weapon at a safe level of warmth.

Given these, it is not unreasonable to asume that heat sink material might be liquid in it's unused state inside a weapon as well as inside a thermal clip, hardening near ejection time, for some reason, into the recognizable form illustrated in the game with ejected hot clips. If this is truly the case, then good luck transfering material from one weapon to another without sofisticated equipment, especially if the material solidfies on contact with air.

[st6212]

Made no sense when they say that the heatsinks are universal, yet when one weapon ran out, you couldn't just use clips from all your other weapons, and instead was forced to switch weapons.

Bioware has a warped understanding of the term 'Universal'.

Modifié par st6212, 23 mai 2011 - 12:31 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Zinoviy wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

So basically ME3 is a big beta test for biowares upcoming shot at a shooter

Derpville citizens not allowed in this forum.

lern 2 emoticon nub

[kregano]

Murmillos wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

People wanting passive cooldown should answer these Qs not that BW did in ME1 either though:
1. How does it eliminate that much heat in such a short time?
2. Where does the heat go?  Important because you know it could melt the skin off your hand ignite munitions nearby and on your person.
3. Why doesn't it explode sometimes when you overheat the heat sink? I think that would be perfectly reasonable and render you weaponless.

I'll give you an answer.

1) To answer your question, I need to know "how much heat"... are we talking like CPU heat amount.. Car engine heat amount.. raging forest fire inferno heat amount?  

2) Where does the heat go?  Well, perhaps the CPU fins&fan could give us a clue.. or maybe a radiator on a car. 

3) Because like most things which get damaged when subjected to heat, have an auto shut down before they reach critical.  Like some diesel generators, the water temp normally allows normal operation at 180°F, but they shut down when the water temp reaches 220-240°F.  Because if it gets any hotter, the engine WOULD start to get damaged, but it shuts down ever before that happens.

Same thing for the terminal clips, they could be rated to handle say 2-3 more shots then what you typically eject them at. So that way the weapon is never at critical point, just at the upper end of the recomended safe limits.  Nobody would want a gun that would randomly explode when it overheated.

This much heat:

[Fixers0]

SalsaDMA wrote...



What we DO know about them is this:
-Thermal clips are the containers carrying material for heat sinks. Where was that stated? not in the codex.
-Heat sinks are stored internally in a weapon.  Where?
-Heat sinks have a distinct shape when ejected from a weapon (A shape and size that doesn't fit too well with the shape and size of thermal clips, btw) Wrong, the all look the same
-Heat sinks are adaptive. Ie. It depends on the heatproducing capability of the weapon how much heat sink material is used to keep the weapon at a safe level of warmth. Again never statet or told, just your own imagniation

Just a small edit.

Conclusion, You're inducing things when they were never tolled, you're inventing a Narative that doesn't exist. Why does Shepard nevers has to put a new clips in his weapons? why do enemies drop thermal clip with less ammo?<why is there an 'ammo' counter with resever 'ammo'?  where are thermal clips stored? I haven't seen any pockets.

[Da Mecca]

Another reason to respect it is they aren't going to change it no matter what people say.