165 réponses à ce sujet

[Naamah_bb]

I think the cameo is great. Not everything has to be explained in details. Use your imagination with the data you're given. Like someone said: it's an rpg. You do heroic stuff, meet kings, queens, save the world and what not.
It's cool that you get to meet the king of Ferelden when just few years back you were...well, nobody...

[Hatchetman77]

I had a problem with most of the cameos in the game.  For some reason I find they take you out of the game a little, as Hawke has a different reaction to them than the player would.  The player remembers all the adventures they had in Origins while for Hawke they have no more significance than any other NPC he just randamly meets.  If a character from origins comes back I hope the game allows Hawke to have their own experiences with the character and form his own relationship with the character that will be different from the Warden's experience, even if that old origins companion is now just an NPC questgiver.  I HATED when Hawke says "THE Lilianna" and made her a victim of "Anakin Skywalker syndrome", where she has inflated significant in the story because she is famous to the players and not because she is important to the story.      

I'd rather they just not be in the game than randomly meeting them as you would any other disposable NPC. 
My opinion on this may have been different and I may have been more accepting of the cameos if I had enjoyed DA2 more, i don't know. 

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 23 mai 2011 - 11:15 .

[DragonRacer]

TJPags wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
A TON of fereldans went to kirkwall and he is checking up on his people hoping they will return. There are many reasons he could be there. Use your friggin imaginations, this is an rpg, it's all about you deciding why things happen.

Or it could have been that he was hoping to find an ally in Kirkwall, like he said.

Exept, if he's not King, we don't see Anora showing up for the same reason, do we?  We don't get that information about Ferelden hiding mages, or tension with Orlais, do we?  Doesn't she want allies?  DOes she have the same problems with Orlais?  Is she hiding mages from the Chantry?

Woah, what did Alistair say about hiding mages? Been a while since I saw his king cameo and the main thing I remembered was trouble brewing with Orlais.

If he really did talk about hiding mages or otherwise trying to protect Fereldan mages... boy, this whole impending Chantry/apostates doomsday war scenario is getting very interesting, what with Orlais being the home of the Divine and hating Ferelden anyway. If Ferelden's becoming a safe haven for mages.... *steeples fingers*

And, of course, my own personal playthroughs have choices that a lot of people may or may not have made, so likely those small decisions will have no future impact. But it brings a smile to my face thinking that: Dagna (the dwarf you could help study at the Circle in DAO) has a mage haven set up near Orzammar (remember there was talk of a possible Exalted March because of that?)... could lead to possible dwarven-mage alliance, since mages can't really hurt dwarves anyway and dwarves could make money off the increased black market lyrium trade (would also become a good outpost for any templars who jump alliances and help any mages - they don't have to fear lyrium withdrawals)... not to mention Jowan (who I made run off) and his merry band could become involved... and if Loghain hasn't gone off into his Calling yet, my Warden (wherever she is) could have a Fereldan spy/operative in Montsimmard (or maybe that's WHY she disappeared... rendezvous with Loghain, LOL). And now Rebel Leader Anders/Justice and Hawke return to Ferelden to further establish an apostate homebase for impending war against Orlais/Divine. Wee!

All completely off-the-rocker head canon theories, considering Jowan is probably dead in 90% of people's playthroughs, Loghain is probably dead in 99% of people's playthroughs, and probably 50/50 on Dagna. And we've all seen what most people think of Anders now.  But it's a pretty little dream.

[TJPags]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

TJPags wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Beerfish wrote...
A TON of fereldans went to kirkwall and he is checking up on his people hoping they will return. There are many reasons he could be there. Use your friggin imaginations, this is an rpg, it's all about you deciding why things happen.

Or it could have been that he was hoping to find an ally in Kirkwall, like he said.

Exept, if he's not King, we don't see Anora showing up for the same reason, do we?  We don't get that information about Ferelden hiding mages, or tension with Orlais, do we?  Doesn't she want allies?  DOes she have the same problems with Orlais?  Is she hiding mages from the Chantry?

Anora is a different kind of ruler than Alistair. Where he makes alliances out of friendship, she manipulates and quite effectively.

Anora knows how to keep the Banns under her thumb and she probably applies the same principle to all public relations. She can probably apply the same principle to all public relations.

That's wonderful speculation.  So, in this scenario, Anora is not having any kind of problem with Orlais?

I mean, this is exactly my point.  We don't see Anora visit.  Why?  Who knows - she probably wasn't popular enough to merit a cameo.  But more importantly, those of us who didn't make Alistair king don't receive any of this information abvout tensions with Orlais, or hiding mages, etc.

So how big a plot point can this really be?

[DragonRacer]

TJPags wrote...

That's wonderful speculation.  So, in this scenario, Anora is not having any kind of problem with Orlais?

I mean, this is exactly my point.  We don't see Anora visit.  Why?  Who knows - she probably wasn't popular enough to merit a cameo.  But more importantly, those of us who didn't make Alistair king don't receive any of this information abvout tensions with Orlais, or hiding mages, etc.

So how big a plot point can this really be?

I dunno. I think big things can be brewing that erupt in DA3, but nothing says we can't be thrown a foreshadowing bone randomly. Look at a lot of the Anders and Justice dialogues in Awakening. At the time, it didn't immediately indicate that Anders would want to form a real mage revolution ("I'm always up for a spot of iconoclasm"... I mean, holy naked statue of Andraste, Batman!) and that Justice would want to inhabit a living host. But, obviously, after that scenario slapped us in the face in DA2, you think back on those conversations and go, 'Dang, I missed it!' or 'Dang, hindsight is 20/20.'

I guess what I'm trying to say is the info in King Alistair's cameo isn't 100% needed by DA2 players in order for the situation in DA3 to pan out/make sense. It could just be a foreshadowing "cookie". Or could be absolutely nothing.

Another interesting example: Sandal's creepy-ass prophecy. I've YET to get this in a playthrough and, apparently, it's a rare convo that fires, but I think there may be some deep, prophetic future stuff in his little Flemeth-esque cryptic speech. But the majority of DA2 players will probably never see that scene in their games.

[TJPags]

DragonRacer wrote...

TJPags wrote...

That's wonderful speculation.  So, in this scenario, Anora is not having any kind of problem with Orlais?

I mean, this is exactly my point.  We don't see Anora visit.  Why?  Who knows - she probably wasn't popular enough to merit a cameo.  But more importantly, those of us who didn't make Alistair king don't receive any of this information abvout tensions with Orlais, or hiding mages, etc.

So how big a plot point can this really be?

I dunno. I think big things can be brewing that erupt in DA3, but nothing says we can't be thrown a foreshadowing bone randomly. Look at a lot of the Anders and Justice dialogues in Awakening. At the time, it didn't immediately indicate that Anders would want to form a real mage revolution ("I'm always up for a spot of iconoclasm"... I mean, holy naked statue of Andraste, Batman!) and that Justice would want to inhabit a living host. But, obviously, after that scenario slapped us in the face in DA2, you think back on those conversations and go, 'Dang, I missed it!' or 'Dang, hindsight is 20/20.'

I guess what I'm trying to say is the info in King Alistair's cameo isn't 100% needed by DA2 players in order for the situation in DA3 to pan out/make sense. It could just be a foreshadowing "cookie". Or could be absolutely nothing.

Another interesting example: Sandal's creepy-ass prophecy. I've YET to get this in a playthrough and, apparently, it's a rare convo that fires, but I think there may be some deep, prophetic future stuff in his little Flemeth-esque cryptic speech. But the majority of DA2 players will probably never see that scene in their games.

Well, first, I'm not so sure about the Anders-Justice conversations being related.  But that's neither here nor there.

The difference with the Sandel comment is that it's completely random.  It's not based on the choices you made and the world state you created in DAO and imported into DA2.

Sure, foreshadowing can be hidden, or random, or discernible only after the fact.  But to make it dependant on prior choices is itself a poor choice, IMO. 

As a player who can't stand Alistair, I've never made him King.  I therefore have none of this information present in my games - I've learned it only from these forums.  So if this plays a huge part in DA3 - and really, I'm essentially okay if it does, though I really don't care about Ferelden - my game world will have had no foreknowledge of it.  I will again be in, perhaps, a position where what DA3 says is going on contradicts information from DAO, DAA or DA2, as, for instance, the epilogue slide saying Anders remained with the Wardens his entire life contradicts with him being in Kirkwall apparently minutes after DAA ends.

Big deal?  No.  Just poor writing and poor planning, IMO.

[LadyVaJedi]

And I bet any wardens that went through there with Morgan are playing skeet ball with god.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

So how big a plot point can this really be?

The planet Klendagon would like to have a word with you.

LadyVaJedi wrote...

And I bet any wardens that went through there with Morgan are playing skeet ball with god.

Was that a Dogma reference?  

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So how big a plot point can this really be?

The planet Klendagon would like to have a word with you.

Sorry, but - I have no idea what that's in reference to.

[Mecher3k]

David Gaider wrote...

Wow.

Tough, ****y crowd.

Wow the boss of Hamburger Helper.

[Deztyn]

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So how big a plot point can this really be?

The planet Klendagon would like to have a word with you.

Sorry, but - I have no idea what that's in reference to.

In Mass Effect while traveling around on the galaxy map you can scan planets and get a bit of fluff text and some basic stats (Population, gravity, how long it takes to orbit it's sun etc.) most people only scan planets to see if they can land on them, or to see if they can collect an element in ME's version of a fetch quest. Very few people bother to actually read the fluff text. In ME2 it turns out that fluff text about the planet Klendagon was kind of important, since the big canyon on Klendagon was caused by a powerful weapon that hit the planet after killing the Reaper in it's path. Something easily missed. Most people wouldn't have given the planet description much consideration even if they had read it. But it's an important part of the background to a major plot point in ME2. And possibly even ME3.

[Thothistox]

Stippling wrote...

King Alistair's cameo/intricate quest turned into a royal vacation in Kirkwall due to budget cuts.

(appreciate the effort, not the result =/ )

Exactly.

I'll add that I found the visit a bit misleading because I was expecting it would become a part of the main plot of DA2, as in my first playthrough I still hadn't figured out that it was a game about mages versus templars at that point, and that was because I kept getting confused by the fact that people kept ignoring the fact that my Hawke was a mage, which made me think that being a mage wasn't as important as it should have been.

[Peer of the Empire]

Alistair would make a terrible King.  So he is not

FOR THE HORDE

[haand76]

I enjoyed seeing Alistair and Teagan again, but you should probably have skipped the "swooping is bad"-line out of the conversation, it didn't fit in that well.

[TJPags]

Deztyn wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

So how big a plot point can this really be?

The planet Klendagon would like to have a word with you.

Sorry, but - I have no idea what that's in reference to.

In Mass Effect while traveling around on the galaxy map you can scan planets and get a bit of fluff text and some basic stats (Population, gravity, how long it takes to orbit it's sun etc.) most people only scan planets to see if they can land on them, or to see if they can collect an element in ME's version of a fetch quest. Very few people bother to actually read the fluff text. In ME2 it turns out that fluff text about the planet Klendagon was kind of important, since the big canyon on Klendagon was caused by a powerful weapon that hit the planet after killing the Reaper in it's path. Something easily missed. Most people wouldn't have given the planet description much consideration even if they had read it. But it's an important part of the background to a major plot point in ME2. And possibly even ME3.

Ahhh, thank you.  Understand the reference now. 

However, it still sort of makes my point.  The Klendagon reference is something that - if I read your explanation correctly - was actually avaliable to all players - it was up to them to scan each planet and read everything.  The information from the King Alistair cameo is given ONLY to players who made him King.  Those who didn't - well, it's not that we chose not to read the available information, the information was never presented to us.

I continue to feel that doing something like that - if indeed it will be a large plot point in DA3 - is poor writing/planning.

[WhiteKnyght]

David Gaider wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...
A better question would be... What the designer of Alistair's face was thinking / drinking? How much time did he spend doing it? Seriously.

Possibly she was trying too hard to get the face morph to look as close as it possibly could, even though the system wasn't designed to make faces much like Origins', and should have known that even the slightest difference would be picked apart and declared hideous. So she probably needn't have tried as hard as she did.

I thought it looked fine.

Well to me, it looks like Al's been helping himself to cheese more often than he should in one version, and in the other he looks like he just totally let himself go. Also not to nitpick, but there should have been another alternate appearance for his Qunari invasion cameo if he remains a warden. Like have his classic Splintmail or Grey Warden armor, rather than just re-use his King Al model.

Also how old is Alistair exactly? If he's the same child Fiona had in The Calling that would make him roughly 20 years old in Origins and 27 at the time of his King Al Cameo.

[Deztyn]

TJPags wrote...
Ahhh, thank you.  Understand the reference now. 

Glad to be of service.

However, it still sort of makes my point.  The Klendagon reference is something that - if I read your explanation correctly - was actually avaliable to all players - it was up to them to scan each planet and read everything.  The information from the King Alistair cameo is given ONLY to players who made him King.  Those who didn't - well, it's not that we chose not to read the available information, the information was never presented to us.

I continue to feel that doing something like that - if indeed it will be a large plot point in DA3 - is poor writing/planning.

I'd agree with that, mostly.

It's kind of a jerk move not to give everyone access to that information. It gives off the impression that players who made different choices were somehow 'doing it wrong.'  They could have given the information to other players in a different way. But if it does become an important plot point and it's adequately explained in DA3 or an expansion, I don't think it would be necessary to give every player access to a line or two of foreshadowing.

(I'm more annoyed by the fact that Alistair's getting involved with protecting the mages. Queen Cousland does not approve.)

[TJPags]

Deztyn wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Ahhh, thank you.  Understand the reference now. 

Glad to be of service.

However, it still sort of makes my point.  The Klendagon reference is something that - if I read your explanation correctly - was actually avaliable to all players - it was up to them to scan each planet and read everything.  The information from the King Alistair cameo is given ONLY to players who made him King.  Those who didn't - well, it's not that we chose not to read the available information, the information was never presented to us.

I continue to feel that doing something like that - if indeed it will be a large plot point in DA3 - is poor writing/planning.

I'd agree with that, mostly.

It's kind of a jerk move not to give everyone access to that information. It gives off the impression that players who made different choices were somehow 'doing it wrong.'  They could have given the information to other players in a different way. But if it does become an important plot point and it's adequately explained in DA3 or an expansion, I don't think it would be necessary to give every player access to a line or two of foreshadowing.

(I'm more annoyed by the fact that Alistair's getting involved with protecting the mages. Queen Cousland does not approve.)

You know, your caveat actually is a very good one.  So long as they adequately set up the backstory in DA3, rather than rely on information given only to some players as part of DA2 (even if that may be the majority) then it may work out.

I also agree completely with your point about the mages - my Queen Cousland does not approve at all. 

[WhiteKnyght]

I'm quite happy with Alistair's new stance on magic. Better than his semi-intolerance brought on by being raised in the Chantry.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I'm quite happy with Alistair's new stance on magic. Better than his semi-intolerance brought on by being raised in the Chantry.

I didn't think he was anti-mage or anti-magic in Origins, or semi-intolerant. Alistair says the Harrowing he witnessed made him not want to be a templar anymore, the codex mentions he's fascinated by magic, he has no problem with Wynne being a mage and is surprised her son was taken from her at birth, and has no issue becoming the best friend and trusting the leadership of a mage protagonist. He thinks the Chantry uses lyrium to control the templars, and can be persuaded to accept letting Jowan go without any loss of approval. King Alistair asks Wynne to accept a position at court because he wants to improve the lot of mages, and agrees with the Magi boon - even ordering Greagoir to let the mages be free if The Warden sacrified his life to the Archdemon, even though the Chantry later says no.

[TEWR]

Peer of the Empire wrote...

Alistair would make a terrible King.  So he is not

FOR THE HORDE

Actually DA2 says that he's become a great king for Ferelden.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno it really just appears to be people finding things to hate about DA2 because it didn't fit their idea of what it should be.

"DA2 is horrible! I'll make up stuff to hate about it so I can hate it some more!!"

I just know someone at some point is going to say they hated Varric and their reasons for it will make me want to bash my head in my wall.

"He has no beard!!"

One person has put together a mod that gives Varric a beard, so I'd say that's already happened....

Hold on.  I''ll go find you a nice brick wall.

[TEWR]

Silfren wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno it really just appears to be people finding things to hate about DA2 because it didn't fit their idea of what it should be.

"DA2 is horrible! I'll make up stuff to hate about it so I can hate it some more!!"

I just know someone at some point is going to say they hated Varric and their reasons for it will make me want to bash my head in my wall.

"He has no beard!!"

One person has put together a mod that gives Varric a beard, so I'd say that's already happened....

Hold on.  I''ll go find you a nice brick wall.

Yea I've seen the mod before, so maybe I should've used something about Bianca instead of Varric's lack of beard, but meh. Makes me want to puke though.

[Xanamir]

 Considering how the entire point of the main quest in DA:O was to gather allies, it makes perfect sense that Alistair would continue doing that as king, since that was his previous MO and it seemed to work out for him pretty well then, what with the whole "stopping the Blight" thing. Honestly, I'm surprised that people are questioning it, to be honest. It's not like Kirkwall and Denerim are thousands and thousands of miles apart, you know.

More importantly, it was fun for me as a player. I like Alistair and I was happy to see him for a bit, in a way that referenced my old character (hearing my warden get called the old ball and chain earned a grin as I imagined what her reaction to that would be.)