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#76
elearon1

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Rockpopple wrote...
You think people would be raving about TW2's sex scenes if there weren't any nudity? Puh-lease.

It's all about the skin. Talk about any other factor you like, but it all boils down to nudity.


Please read the original post - while I do not deny that the nudity is nice, my main focus is on the natural delivery of the scene pre-copulation.  The scene flows well, feels natural, and has enough humor and romance to reflect how a real encounter making love tends to go.  

The other stuff, if you like it, is a bonus - but even if they'd avoided showing Triss' naked parts and faded directly to the "conversation above" without interspersing it with graphic sex shots, it would have been just as lovely. 

#77
elearon1

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stupid forum: messed up and double posted. 

Modifié par elearon1, 24 mai 2011 - 12:24 .


#78
Rockpopple

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I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being very serious. Nudity is very important. What I failed to mention that it wasn't just explicit nudity that matters - ala the Witcher 2 (female nudity, at least). Implicit nudity is extremely important too.

You ask most BioWare RPG fans about the topic of sex scenes and most of them will bring up ME1 as some kind of gold standard. That game doesn't have any explicit nudity, but the nudity is implied. That's why people remember it.

The most important sex organ for either gender is the brain. When people have sex, they burn more calories using their brain than they do their sex organs.

People like being able to fill in the blanks. We knew that the LI in ME1 was naked under those sheets at the end of the scene. We knew they were naked during.

Look at every BioWare sex scene since. There is no attempt at an illusion for the players - there are clothes, even in the most inappropriate places, because they probably wanted to avoid explicit nudity, when with some clever camera work, they could have implied the nudity instead.

Imagine if during the Miranda scene she takes off her bra as well, but you don't see her from the front. With clever camera work, the player knows she's nude and from that point forward, their brains can do the rest. A naked back can be just as titallating as the front just because we know the front is also bare.

Imagine if during the scene with Merrill, instead of them wearing their ridiculous undergarments, they're nude. But you don't see anything due to blankets, clever angles/camera work, etc. We know how people have sex, we know most people don't hurry to put on their clothes after doing it, and if we knew the principals were/are nude, even without seeing it, that'd be less..... babying than having them wear their little lingeries or whatevers.

TW2 does explicit nudity cuz they know their customers. They know what they like. That's why they didn't even go near the topic of Geralt's mighty penis. Seeing that would have driven their customers into a mad rage accusing CDPR of trying to turn them gay or something. And explicit is one way to do a sex scene.

But a sex scene using implicit nudity can be just as exciting, just as titillating, if not more, cuz our heads are doing a lot of the work instead, and this is a direction BioWare can go when it comes to their love scenes. They don't have to work blue. In fact, I'd prefer they didn't. But they should work smart.

People are people and they're generally easy to manipulate. You want to titillate them? It's not that hard, and you don't need to flash any boob to do it.


TC - I read the original topic, but the topic has strayed since then. In any case, I don't agree with your premise that the prelude to the scene was done any better in either game, so there you have it.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 24 mai 2011 - 12:34 .


#79
Luvinn

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elearon1 wrote...


Please read the original post - while I do not deny that the nudity is nice, my main focus is on the natural delivery of the scene pre-copulation.  The scene flows well, feels natural, and has enough humor and romance to reflect how a real encounter making love tends to go.  

The other stuff, if you like it, is a bonus - but even if they'd avoided showing Triss' naked parts and faded directly to the "conversation above" without interspersing it with graphic sex shots, it would have been just as lovely. 



I like the humor in the scenes too. It doesn't always have to be super serious, sad or emotional. Like the dwarf hearing the noise up top, or when Triss pulls Geralt into the water with his clothes on still. Those scenes seemed like how this would really happen rather than something out of a movie script. Isabella taking her daggers off was a nice touch too. When she pulls out that hidden shiv she had on her, it made me go "ha!".

#80
Maverick827

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Faust1979 wrote...


nudity only offends the extremely religious

I'm not religious at all, and I'm offended when nudity takes the place of character building.  That TW2 bath scene everyone keeps linking to...Geralt mumbles twice and then says "You need a bath."  Then Triss gets naked for about three minutes.  That's it.

#81
Torhagen

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In my Opinion is as easy as:
Projekt Red is European
Bioware/EA is American

#82
Faust1979

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Maverick827 wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...


nudity only offends the extremely religious

I'm not religious at all, and I'm offended when nudity takes the place of character building.  That TW2 bath scene everyone keeps linking to...Geralt mumbles twice and then says "You need a bath."  Then Triss gets naked for about three minutes.  That's it.


maybe she does need a bath besides to take a bath you need to be naked

#83
Silver

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TM13h wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

 It has to be said, BW could take a lesson from CD Project Red about how to do a game. 


Fixed that for you, especially with regard to DA2. But yeah, love scenes in BW gmes are getting worse with every game.

Unless they seriously upped their game in TW2 in contrast to TW1, then CD Projekt RED can still learn something from BW... and while I liked the romance scenes in DAO and DA2, I have to agree with some people here that there is still no better romance scene than the one in ME1.

And another thing: Getting to shag a girl as payment for a job is not making a game more mature or anything, it makes it rather silly.

#84
Luvinn

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I agree with a lot of your points, Rockpopple. The problem i had with much of Bioware's scenes is they seem to try to be explicit, but are afraid to actually do it all the way. The scene with Merrill was probably the best example. They imply you just had a love scene, but like you said, for some reason they were in a rush to put their clothes back on. I always said the same thing too, if they were under the covers it would of been such a more natural, realistic scene. Full nudity did not even need to be an option, and it would of been fine. But as it was, it just basically said to me, we want to do this, but we are afraid of how people will think of us.

In short, i think that if they are afraid to show nudity, then don't give scenes with.....whatever undergarments you want to call it that they wear.

Modifié par Luvinn, 24 mai 2011 - 12:59 .


#85
Faust1979

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The characters in games are living in different times and under different rules they shouldn't have to conform to situations in real life.

#86
elearon1

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Rock, I simply disagree with you. Yes, nudity is part of the package - perceived or otherwise - but it is not the promise of implied or extant nudity that make all love scenes attractive. You can have some very meaningful scenes which do not imply nudity, but still imply sexuality - or sensuality.

>>I like the humor in the scenes too. It doesn't always have to be super serious, sad or emotional. Like the dwarf hearing the noise up top, or when Triss pulls Geralt into the water with his clothes on still. Those scenes seemed like how this would really happen rather than something out of a movie script. Isabella taking her daggers off was a nice touch too. When she pulls out that hidden shiv she had on her, it made me go "ha!".<<

Precisely what I was talking about - the non sex elements that made these scenes so attractive.

#87
marshalleck

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General Malor wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Indeed. Rather it is the hardcore Bioware fanboy who seems to become a sweaty pervert over cheesy "romance" in RPGs and dedicate thousands of pages of discussion to theorizing and speculating about said "romances" with imaginary people. 

I don't see the problem. R-rated movies have sex scenes, does that mean anyone who has ever watched an R-rated movie with a sex scene is a pervert? That's like saying books shouldn't have sex scenes or that people are "sweaty perverts" for reading them.

You don't like people playing the role in role-playing games then this isn't the place for you. That's worse than going to a RP server in an MMO and saying everyone is wierd for role-playing.

I don't have a problem with romance, per se. Nor sex scenes. No problem with nudity either. I'm not a prude, despite how much you'd probably like to characterize me as one. What I do have a problem with is saying the "CoD crowd" only care about big boobs and cheap sex appeal, which is absurd considering there really are no sexual themes in those games at all, while DA2 is full of big breasted women willing to take a tumble with Hawke. Again, that in itself doesn't bother me. The arrogant hypocrisy does. What's one of the most highly hyped and speculated topics each time a new Bioware game is announced? You guessed it, romances. And following immediately on its heels is the topic of how racy the sex scenes will or will not be. If there's any one reason Bioware keep putting sex and romance in their games, it's because their own fanbase expect and demand it. Not because they think it will attract CoD players. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 mai 2011 - 01:16 .


#88
Rockpopple

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elearon1 wrote...

Rock, I simply disagree with you. Yes, nudity is part of the package - perceived or otherwise - but it is not the promise of implied or extant nudity that make all love scenes attractive. You can have some very meaningful scenes which do not imply nudity, but still imply sexuality - or sensuality.

>>I like the humor in the scenes too. It doesn't always have to be super serious, sad or emotional. Like the dwarf hearing the noise up top, or when Triss pulls Geralt into the water with his clothes on still. Those scenes seemed like how this would really happen rather than something out of a movie script. Isabella taking her daggers off was a nice touch too. When she pulls out that hidden shiv she had on her, it made me go "ha!".<<

Precisely what I was talking about - the non sex elements that made these scenes so attractive.


We're gonna have to agree to disagree then, because I found nothing enchanting about the prelude to Triss and Geralt's bangin' one out in the pool. The lead-ins to the scenes in DA2 were fine to me. Maybe I'm missing a boatload of context - from not having played TW1 or TW2, but that scene in TW2 was basically a way to waste a few seconds before they could get to the sex. If I was missing context, then I guess CDPR did a poor job making it relavent for Witcher n00bs.

In any case, that's neither here or there. I stand by my point about the sex/love scenes themselves, not the preamble to them.

#89
In Exile

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Rockpopple wrote...
TW2 does explicit nudity cuz they know their customers. They know what they like. That's why they didn't even go near the topic of Geralt's mighty penis. Seeing that would have driven their customers into a mad rage accusing CDPR of trying to turn them gay or something. And explicit is one way to do a sex scene.


But think of the hilarity of trying to have Geralt justify a small penis (the mutagens, they're at fault! I ran low on vigor!).

That being said, I think you make an excellent point regarding the role of nudity in a well-done sex scene. More generally, I would say that the baseline goal for developers (if they're going to show a scene versus fade to black) is to make it seem like the characters are actually having sex. They don't need to show graphic sex, but the scene needs to make sense.

In DA:O, for example, it looks like the Warden has a weird underwear fetish more than anything.

Even ME drops the ball a little, because it has Shepard fully dressed while Ashley/Liara is naked which made it look like (to me) that Shepard was either trying to walk of shame it out of his own room or was about to kick her out. And I'd wager that with Kaiden, it's Shepard under the sheets that makes it look even more like someone is trying to walk of shame it out of there.

#90
KeyStroke

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Rockpopple wrote...

It seems simplistic, but the truth is a lot of people want nudity, and if they don't get nudity, it's not "mature" enough.


Not quite, I think its more people want more realism. A scene/experience that is more believeable. Such doesn't need to be full frontal nudity or explict. Scenes where people bang their brains out with their clothes still on etc. Not really believeable, then they could just as well remove the scene all together.

#91
In Exile

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Maverick827 wrote...
I'm not religious at all, and I'm offended when nudity takes the place of character building.  That TW2 bath scene everyone keeps linking to...Geralt mumbles twice and then says "You need a bath."  Then Triss gets naked for about three minutes.  That's it.


You just had the option for character building, though. All of that was the previous scene, with the Rose of Rembrance in the garden. Triss and Geralt had been toghether for some time by that point, and Geralt essentially said "How about sex now?" which, in the context of their relationship, is character consistent. And afterwards, you have Triss ask you to drop everything to be with her.

It's all very elaborate and well done. You can't just look at one part of the scene.

#92
marshalleck

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Rockpopple wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Rock, I simply disagree with you. Yes, nudity is part of the package - perceived or otherwise - but it is not the promise of implied or extant nudity that make all love scenes attractive. You can have some very meaningful scenes which do not imply nudity, but still imply sexuality - or sensuality.

>>I like the humor in the scenes too. It doesn't always have to be super serious, sad or emotional. Like the dwarf hearing the noise up top, or when Triss pulls Geralt into the water with his clothes on still. Those scenes seemed like how this would really happen rather than something out of a movie script. Isabella taking her daggers off was a nice touch too. When she pulls out that hidden shiv she had on her, it made me go "ha!".<<

Precisely what I was talking about - the non sex elements that made these scenes so attractive.


We're gonna have to agree to disagree then, because I found nothing enchanting about the prelude to Triss and Geralt's bangin' one out in the pool. The lead-ins to the scenes in DA2 were fine to me. Maybe I'm missing a boatload of context - from not having played TW1 or TW2, but that scene in TW2 was basically a way to waste a few seconds before they could get to the sex. If I was missing context, then I guess CDPR did a poor job making it relavent for Witcher n00bs.

In any case, that's neither here or there. I stand by my point about the sex/love scenes themselves, not the preamble to them.

You did miss a boatload of context. You're missing tons of stuff, none of which is explicitly spelled out through ham-fisted exposition ala Dragon Ball Z style monologues. Because you see, CDP's writers don't take their audience for idiots who need everything linked and spelled out in glowing text.

Explaining everything you're missing would be spoilers, and proper understanding of the context cannot develop from a youtube video. It's woven into the entire narrative of Triss and Geralt in both games, not just TW2.  

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 mai 2011 - 01:28 .


#93
Rockpopple

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I think it's a mistake to think that in order to add context you need long flowery exposition. If you don't add context from TW1 into a love scene between 2 major characters, you're basically telling people who haven't played TW1 to play TW1 if they want to join the club. They can do that, if they want, but that explains their relatively small but intense player-base - even compared to an already smaller player-base for RPGs.

#94
LordJeyl

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If EA thinks that including a love scene in Mass Effect 3 that's similar to Mass Effect 1, they're just "delusional".

de·lu·sion
- A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence.

I would also like to add that nudity during a love scene can be more than just a titillating element. The idea that showing nudity during a love scene automatically brands it a "sex scene" and not a "love scene" I think is disingenuous. I didn't look at the first Mass Effect love scene as a "This is HAWT", I looked at it as the next stage of these character's relationship with each other. And the nudity factor I thought was appropriate since these characters are always seen in their armor and rarely in anything else. For a game that emphasizes different armor and upgrades, having nudity during the love scenes adds a more complete sense of trust and yearning for the characters since being naked is when the characters are at their most vulnerable. Fading to black and cutting to "the morning after" scene where the characters are clothed kind of robs that moment of complete trust between the two.

#95
marshalleck

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Rockpopple wrote...

I think it's a mistake to think that in order to add context you need long flowery exposition. If you don't add context from TW1 into a love scene between 2 major characters, you're basically telling people who haven't played TW1 to play TW1 if they want to join the club. They can do that, if they want, but that explains their relatively small but intense player-base - even compared to an already smaller player-base for RPGs.

The romance elements between Triss and Geralt are in both games; you don't need to play both to understand. You do however need to play one of them. You say you don't need long, flowery exposition to understand what makes the elven bath scene appealing to players, but you simultaneously expect to "get it" merely from watching the characters have sex? And denigrate the game when (surprise) all you see are the characters having sex? It's a youtube video. That it lacks context should be an inherently safe assumption--and that's not a fault with the game's writing. 

Also, the jab at comparative fanbase size is amusing, as is the implication that writing should be dumbed down and thinned out to appeal to more players. Unsurprising this comes from a Bioware fanboy/girl.

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 mai 2011 - 01:40 .


#96
Faust1979

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why does it have to be romance? why can't it just be two people banging? not everyone that screws does it because they love each other sometimes they just do it because it feels good

#97
WhiteKnyght

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IMO, Origins was more about sex, DAII's scenes focus more on the intimacy/romance between the characters.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 24 mai 2011 - 01:40 .


#98
Rockpopple

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@ mashalleck - woah, I never said I expect anyone to "get it" from the scene themselves. I was talking about the prelude to the scene, and yeah, some context should be given, otherwise it's just an inside-joke for the club. In fact, I'm quite sure I have no clue what you're on about. Don't get your dander up to defend your game when no one is actually attacking it.

@ LordJeyl - but, like I mentioned, there was no actual nudity in ME1... unless you count some barely visible bum as nudity, in which case okay there's a little. In any case, I have no problem with "fading to black". There are many ways to depict sex, and visually is only one of them. (Granted, it's the easiest). It all goes back to my post about implicit and explicit nudity.

@ Faust - Oh there's that too. In some games people get sex as rewards for completing quests. But the problem with that is that it can be seen as being denigrating towards women, or it can cross into the territory of pornography. And as we all know, nobody, anywhere, ever, watches pornography.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 24 mai 2011 - 01:43 .


#99
Malanek

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Rockpopple wrote...

We're gonna have to agree to disagree then, because I found nothing enchanting about the prelude to Triss and Geralt's bangin' one out in the pool.

What about the conversation about the rose? A little bit cheesy but still touching.

#100
Rockpopple

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@ Malanek - like I said, my problem is I had no context to the conversation from not playing either game. My guess is most of the context comes from playing the first game. So if you're in the club, you get it. If you're not, you don't. Which is fine. That's one way to do things. I'm not knocking the game for it.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 24 mai 2011 - 01:47 .