29 réponses à ce sujet

[Mars Nova]

Just wanted some quick opinions on this vanguard build I'm considering for an insanity run.

Inferno Ammo-10
Squad Cryo Ammo-10
Heavy Charge-10
Shockwave-6
Pull-3
Champion-10
Stasis-1

[Acerlux]

With all of the protection enemies get on Insanity, I'd consider putting so many points into Squad Cryo and Shockwave questionable. Haven't actually used Stasis ever, so I don't know if it would be more beneficial to pour points into that or not.

[Samurai_Wahoo]

Depends on your style. I have seen videos of people using Shock very effectively. Personally, I would either max it or put the minimum in Shock.

Depends who you talk to about Cryo, myself, I think it is the best thing since sliced bread on Insanity. Defenses are stripped easy in battle and with Cryo it helps close out and CC enemies at the same time.

Modifié par Samurai_Wahoo, 22 mai 2011 - 01:50 .

[mcsupersport]

If you want to put the effort into it, a maxed shockwave can be effective, but generally speaking there are other powers that are better and easier to use. Boz who posts here regularly had/has a video on Youtube showing off a shockwave Vanguard, using Wide I do believe. Personally I never put many point into it on the higher levels, perfering a maxed pull if I can or a maxed bonus power. Now stasis is one of the one point wonders so you don't have to max it, but maxing can be very nice if you have the points. If you only are taking shockwave to get access to pull then I wouldn't put extra points into it, and instead put the extra 3 into pull because low level pull on insanity doesn't last long at all, not much more that a quick companion warp at most.

[lazuli]

Pull and Squad Cryo don't always work well together, as freezing enemies often disrupt biotics, resulting in strange and frustrating glitches. I haven't bothered with Pull on a Vanguard in a long time, as one point in Slam will fulfill a similar purpose without all of the prerequisites.

I don't much care for Shockwave on higher difficulty levels, but it's certainly entertaining on Veteran and below.

[goofyomnivore]

Shockwave is a good alternative to kill husks. Mordin and Samara + Shockwave = Husk Bowling -- even on Insanity.

I don't like Cryo Ammo at all. I'd rather invest my 10 points into Pull Field or Reave.

[termokanden]

Looks fine, except for insanity I don't like Shockwave at all. I was about to suggest you get Pull Field but you can't (I keep forgetting it's not an adept  ).

My current vanguard has Reave instead of Stasis and I spend the points there.

Modifié par termokanden, 22 mai 2011 - 09:40 .

[Bozorgmehr]

My latest (Claymore) Vanguard:

Inferno Ammo
Heavy Charge
Improved Shockwave
Pull Field
Champion
Stasis (1 point)

It's the closest you can get to becoming a biotic warrior; Shockwave is great to knock enemies off ledges and to stagger entire rooms. Pull Field is great CC, and Stasis speaks for itself. The choice is between squad Cryo Ammo which is nice on your teammates or getting Pull Field - I really liked using Pull Field, Improved Shockwave and the occasional Stasis between Charging. Vanguard feels like a 'gimped' Adept with awesome CQC abilities instead of a Charge monster only (which isn't too bad either

Here's a video : Adept or Vanguard?

[Bourne Endeavor]

While Shockwave still seems average at best for the Vanguard. I have to say, Bozo. That use of Overload + Pull is just awesome. The follow up Charge for the poor occasional survivor makes it even better. I really do need to run the Adept some time and make use of that. For now I'll go with my BerserkGuard.

As for the build itself, you ought to max out Pull and Shockwave, otherwise you are simply gimping the Vanguard. I would advise ditching one of the ammo powers. Inferno may be worthwhile but you can afford its removal if you bring along Jacob or Grunt with the squad variety. Likewise, you could sub in Zaeed, Jack or Garrus for a different ammo. Personally, I say trade off Cryo though.

[Mars Nova]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

My latest (Claymore) Vanguard:

Inferno Ammo
Heavy Charge
Improved Shockwave
Pull Field
Champion
Stasis (1 point)

It's the closest you can get to becoming a biotic warrior; Shockwave is great to knock enemies off ledges and to stagger entire rooms. Pull Field is great CC, and Stasis speaks for itself. The choice is between squad Cryo Ammo which is nice on your teammates or getting Pull Field - I really liked using Pull Field, Improved Shockwave and the occasional Stasis between Charging. Vanguard feels like a 'gimped' Adept with awesome CQC abilities instead of a Charge monster only (which isn't too bad either

Here's a video : Adept or Vanguard?

Thanks for the build idea, it sounds good, I'm gonna try it out.  Did you come up with that yourself or is it a common one?  I've never seen it before. 

And a biotic warrior is  excactly what I'm going for with this build, that's what I liked about the ME1 vanguard, traditonal ME2 charge vanguard, while fun, lacks the same sort of feeling.

I'm considering the following build as well, trying to get the biotic warrior feel while still having squad cryo ammo.

Inferno Ammo
Squad Cryo Ammo
Heavy Charge
Improved Shockwave
Champion
1 Stasis

Modifié par Mars Nova, 22 mai 2011 - 06:49 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Mars Nova wrote...

Thanks for the build idea, it sounds good, I'm gonna try it out.  Did you come up with that yourself or is it a common one?  I've never seen it before. 

And a biotic warrior is  excactly what I'm going for with this build, that's what I liked about the ME1 vanguard, traditonal ME2 charge vanguard, while fun, lacks the same sort of feeling.

I'm considering the following build as well, trying to get the biotic warrior feel while still having squad cryo ammo.

Inferno Ammo
Squad Cryo Ammo
Heavy Charge
Improved Shockwave
Champion
1 Stasis

The most 'common' Vanguard builds have Inferno- and squad Cryo Ammo, Heavy Charge, Champion/Destroyer, and either Heavy Slam or Area Reave. The main issue here is squad Cryo Ammo. It's not very useful for your Vanguard (Inferno is better) but it provides 'free' CC for your squadies. Problem with Cryo Ammo is that biotic powers don't work when enemies are freezing - which can seriously screw up biotic combos

The build I used focuses on biotic powers (including squad powers) so I ignored Cryo Ammo completely and invested skill points in Shockwave and Pull. Going for Pull makes taking Slam bonus power redundant - Slam is great bonus power if you're going to ignore Pull though. Pull and Slam are perfect for Vanguards because of the ridiculous low cooldown (I went for Champion for the small extra cooldown reduction) which means you can use Pull/Slam without risk as long as you still have some shield up. Even when taking heavy fire, cooldown will be ready before enemies can touch your health (so you can Charge to get your shield back).

Slam's effect is instant allowing instant Warp explosions (with squad) but it's single target only and the window to detonate target (with Warp) is small. Pull travels towards target, but you can get Pull Field which can catch multiple enemies (and stagger multiple (protected) enemies within AoE. Pull will also CC enemies longer than Slam.

Shockwave is a more situational power, but it can be really good when there are ledges around and it's fun to use. It's also a great power to stagger. It can be used at the start of a fight, when you still have full shields so no need to Charge straight away, to stagger multiple enemies while you move in for the (close range) kill - Pull can be used similarly but SW has a huge AoE capable to stagger an entire room full of enemies.

Your build looks interesting and you can easily respec and trade Cryo Ammo for Pull Field to test that build. It's all about Cryo Ammo versus Pull Field. Whichever works best for you ought to do

P.S. Adept is my favorite class (check my sig if you're interested); and I learned a trick or two which can be used by other classes too. My aim with this build was to try how far I could go with an 'Adept wannabee' Vanguard without concessions to playstyle > as little cover possible

[Mars Nova]

What do you mean biotics won't work when enemies are freezing? Biotics will work on frozen enemies, right? If so, I'm going with squad cryo ammo. I've found it far too useful on previous playthroughs to abandon it.

Combine that with sniper rifle training on the collector ship, and I'll have a biotic warrior capable of handling situations at any range.

Modifié par Mars Nova, 22 mai 2011 - 08:32 .

[Bozorgmehr]

The time between (enemy) getting hit up to being completely frozen biotic, powers like Pull, Slam and Singularity won't affect enemies. This means that when you use squadmate Overload to strip shields so you can follow up with Pull or Slam - but if your squadmates (accidentally) hit your target before Pull or Slam connects - they won't work.

Slam has the upper hand (over Pull) b/c effect is instant - reducing the chance your squadmates can interfere; powers like Shockwave and Throw still work normally though target needs to be completely frozen for the shatter effect.

[mcsupersport]

Simply put once the freezing animation starts in any form then Biotics(shockwave might) will NOT work on them. The only real exception is once they are frozen solid they can be shattered, in which biotics will work. The issue is if you launch a pull at an enemy and your squad shoots them the pull will probably fail, interrupting combos and generally wasting a cooldown.

[Mars Nova]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The time between (enemy) getting hit up to being completely frozen biotic, powers like Pull, Slam and Singularity won't affect enemies. This means that when you use squadmate Overload to strip shields so you can follow up with Pull or Slam - but if your squadmates (accidentally) hit your target before Pull or Slam connects - they won't work.

Slam has the upper hand (over Pull) b/c effect is instant - reducing the chance your squadmates can interfere; powers like Shockwave and Throw still work normally though target needs to be completely frozen for the shatter effect.

Thanks for the advice, sounds like I'll be going with squad cryo ammo, I love shattering enemies.  Freeze an entire room then let the shockwaves roll!

[Sailears]

How about dropping pull completely, maxing shockwave, and sticking one point in slam?

[lazuli]

Curunen wrote...

How about dropping pull completely, maxing shockwave, and sticking one point in slam?

Not to be snide, but how about not investing points in an ability that is little more than a waste of a ~6 second cooldown?  I know it's in vogue to use bad skills now that the game is old and most of the regulars have mastered it, but is it really sound advice to recommend Shockwave?

[Mars Nova]

Regarding squad cryo ammo vs. pull, another reason I plan on taking squad cryo is that there are several squad members who can learn pull and I can bring along if I need/want it, can't do the same with cryo ammo. And the target getting hit before it can be affected is much less of a problem, since pull is instacast when used by squadmates.

[lazuli]

Mars Nova wrote...

Regarding squad cryo ammo vs. pull, another reason I plan on taking squad cryo is that there are several squad members who can learn pull and I can bring along if I need/want it, can't do the same with cryo ammo. And the target getting hit before it can be affected is much less of a problem, since pull is instacast when used by squadmates.

The squadmates will still use the skill animation though, at least if they're on your screen.  This results in some irritating missed Warp bombs, most notably on Slam which has a rather unforgiving window of Warp opportunity.

[Mars Nova]

I actually don't use warp bombs very often. I seem to be having a problem with cryo ammo and shockwave though. I'm having trouble getting the timing down so the enemy will shatter when hit by my shockwave. Is there a trick to it or something?  Also, does shockwave need to be maxed to shatter a frozen enemy?

Thanks for all the feedback and advice guys, I really appreciate it.

Modifié par Mars Nova, 23 mai 2011 - 04:33 .

[IMNWME]

Shatters happen when you take down a frozen enemy's health bar. It's just a fancy (but fun!) animation. Unless the Shockwave is doing enough physical damage to kill a frozen enemy, it's not going to result in a shatter.

Btw, your build looks fine, if you plan to have a Charge-centric Vanguard w/ access to Pull. I used something similar, though I took Stasis to rank 3. Boz's build is nice if you want to engage in a lot of casting.

[Sailears]

lazuli wrote...

Curunen wrote...

How about dropping pull completely, maxing shockwave, and sticking one point in slam?

Not to be snide, but how about not investing points in an ability that is little more than a waste of a ~6 second cooldown?  I know it's in vogue to use bad skills now that the game is old and most of the regulars have mastered it, but is it really sound advice to recommend Shockwave?

No it's not the build I would play, but seeing as the OP already had 6 points in it, and that the extra 2 points in pull don't make much difference, I thought that was the simplest rearrangement.

I would instead drop shockwave to 1 point, max slam to heavy/crippling, along with inferno/squad cryo/champion/heavy charge. So:
Inferno
Squad Cryo
Heavy Charge
Champion
Shockwave - 1
Heavy/Crippling Slam

But if stasis is preferred, then I would do:
Incendiary - 2
Squad cryo
Heavy Charge
Champion
Shockwave - 6
Pull Field
Stasis - 1

Modifié par Curunen, 23 mai 2011 - 11:37 .

[Mars Nova]

After playing around with it myself and watching Boz's video I'm going to go with his build, right down to the Claymore.  I'll have a true biotic warrior.

Thanks so much for all the advice and feedback guys, I really appreciate it. I finally know my class and build for my canon run on ME2. I can't believe it took me so long to realize that the vanguard can be more than just a charge machine.

Modifié par Mars Nova, 23 mai 2011 - 03:59 .

[jamesp81]

With Vanguard, I usually go with:

Inferno Ammo (10)
Heavy Charge (10)
Wide Shockwave (10)
Destroyer (10)
Cryo Ammo (1)

and then 10 points into whatever bonus power strikes your fancy. Energy Drain and Reave are good choices. A lot of people like Neural Shock and Stasis, but I've never been overly fond of them.

Some people will go with 1 pt pull instead of 1 pt cryo ammo and take Warp Ammo for their bonus power. Warp Ammo does double the bonus damage against targets affected by biotics. Not my thing, but some people like it.

Personally, I like Energy Drain. The Vanguard isn't equipped with any defense stripping powers normally, and you face more shielded enemies than enemies with barriers.