390 réponses à ce sujet

[Dormiglione]

Elhanan wrote...


I have doubts, as do others. Accept the findings as you wish, but be aware the data appears flawed.

But are they? What if a great game got smashed, and few played it because of early bad scores. Or if a great score pushed sales for a product with game stopping bug. I have not played all of them, and would not know; doubt if many could. This sounds like hopeful speculation.

Just because one might agree with the final results does not mean the process to get there is valid. A chocolate cake might look great in the window, but may disappoint when found to be made of plastic foam.

I dont take the metacritics score as an absolute reference for a game, but it shows very well how a game was received.
The User reviews at metacritics are a good information source. Sure, i never read reviews that scored a game with 10/10 or 0-3/10. Personally i read a lot of Reviews with a score between 4 and 8 out of 10. This gives me a very good overview of the game.
I blame myself that i didnt do this for DA2 like i did for a lot of other games. I preordered DA2 and was disappointed.

[Wittand25]

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Just because one might agree with the final results does not mean the process to get there is valid. A chocolate cake might look great in the window, but may disappoint when found to be made of plastic foam.

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever.

The point of science is to get valuable data to proof a hypothesis and to better explain and understand the world around us.

Metacritic is no source for valuable information however since the way user ratings are handled has many flaws.

Chief amongst them is that most users, unlike most professional reviewers, do not rate the game but how they feel about it. And that leads to an increase of extreme scores like 10 and 0, and is greatly affected by what the player expected as well as the image of the company. There are several other flaws in the user score as well that make it completely invalid if one does even know just a little bit of statistics.

At best (and even that is a stretch) what the user scores of both DA2 and TW2 proofs is that DA2 failed to live up to the expectations of customers (or confirmed their fears) while TW2 did not. And that does say nothing about the quality of either game.

Modifié par Wittand25, 25 mai 2011 - 11:40 .

[tariq071]

Elhanan wrote....

Your welcome; now for an apt reply. Staying!

In this thread - a DA2 forum thread, BTW - I am attempting to illustrate and possibly discredit the metacritic score; the OP topic. In this, I tried to point out that both the DA2 and TW2 scores have seen their fair share of biased votes; thus making the overall scores seemingly invalid. I do not use them, and get my own intel elsewhere.

When the TW posts begin appearing, esp in the DA2 forums, I cannot comment directly on gameplay and try now to do so, but post on what I have read and my reasons for not getting it. But I still have the freedom to do so, and will use it; maybe even as often as the TW fans post their threads on these boards.

Now if some tire of my postings here, some possible suggestions in no particular order:

* Purchase the Forums, and ask me to depart.
* Remain on the TW Forums; don't believe I have gone there.
* Head to Off Topic where there is one huge thread of TW2 posters; have said little to nothing there, as the game has no interest for me.
* Skip showers, as to develop thicker skin.

I do try not to criticize TW games, as I choose not to play them. But I do and will criticize, report, and evidently fluster their zealous fans, as they seem fit to come here to espouse their opinions. Frequently.

Thanks!

Seriously, what you are on, are you some sort of forum police here or you are some "forum vigilante" that  decided to rewrite the forum rules?

I don't see moderators forbiding any type of reasonable debate about shortcomings or positives of 2 games(any 2 games) , but in most cases people are qualified to make sugestive comparison because they own and played both games.It's irelevant if they liked both , one or none, what is relevant is that they own it.

You do not own both games and therefore you cannot compare it, so there is no way that you can justifiably claim that  grades somewhere are not correct .You are calling people zealous , while that is exactly what you are doing , not just in this post but in every single post.Yoiu Sir are trolling as much they are.

Or do you have double standards because in  thread that i linked bellow you are telling OP that he cannot judge game in any way because he didn't play game for more then 10 minutes(which is still more then you tried with other game).But you can, ..right:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/7423294/1

Either way, they bought this game here as i did (DA 2) and they and I have every right to post whatever they feel , as long adheres the rules of  forum , and if it doesn't there is someone more qualified  here to tell them not to.They don't need some self proclaimed forum overseer to chase them around each time when their posts don't fit his skewed view.

And as for Metacritic rating, you already stated (like several dozen times just in this thread ) that you don't accept them, so why still whine about them?Good for you  for not accepting them, now stop chasing around  others that do accept them (their choice) , since you already did state your opinion about it.

Modifié par tariq071, 25 mai 2011 - 11:32 .

[Elhanan]

abaris wrote...

First, Bioware themselves claimed to aim for high scores at metacritic. So, they opened that particular can of wirms.

I agree it is a valid topic; disagree that the Metacrtic scores are a valid indicator of excellence.

Second, you're maybe right, but reading the reviews there without looking at the scores, points in certain common directions. Also, Metacritic isn't the only site where DAII isn't top of the pops. Users rate it mediocre at most every board or outlet there is. The amazon scores are way beyond origins and I have yet to find any board where it's rated above average.

And average it probably is. Nothing fancy, nothing that makes it stand out. If you're into the style they adopted you probably find it entertaining. I couldn't say because I for one hate that particular style.

And I agree that looking at the indv reviews might be useful, but I still prefer to go elsewhere for this info. The notion that these 10-0 votes are an acceptable indicator for games that are most proably somewhere between, then being dressed up to look respectable for use in the industry is irksome; like labeling a product, "new genuine imitation" leather.

Whether or not one agrees or not with the final scores does not validate the process in which the scores are determined..

[Elhanan]

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Just because one might agree with the final results does not mean the process to get there is valid. A chocolate cake might look great in the window, but may disappoint when found to be made of plastic foam.

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever.

The part you skip is that while metacritic uses numbers, it ain't scientific; just subjective compilations of frequently invalid and misleading data. They say it is cake, while it is filled with nothing but platic foam. Just because you or myself agree with an outcome does not validate the process from which it is derived.

[Elhanan]

Dormiglione wrote...

I dont take the metacritics score as an absolute reference for a game, but it shows very well how a game was received.
The User reviews at metacritics are a good information source. Sure, i never read reviews that scored a game with 10/10 or 0-3/10. Personally i read a lot of Reviews with a score between 4 and 8 out of 10. This gives me a very good overview of the game.
I blame myself that i didnt do this for DA2 like i did for a lot of other games. I preordered DA2 and was disappointed.

And this may be the best approach for one attempting to use that site. My recommendation is that you still compare elsewhere to try and gain a wider perspective; same advice I was given and try to use for news on important issues.

Better shopping on your next purchase, and enjoy!

[Elhanan]

tariq071 wrote...

Seriously, what you are on, are you some sort of forum police here or you are some "forum vigilante" that  decided to rewrite the forum rules?

Some have determined that I am Raving Fanboy, but I consider my role as a concerned Forumite as a better identity. And the rules seem fine and untouched by my own actions. Pls report me me if I stray, and the officials will let me know as is their role.

I don't see moderators forbiding any type of reasonable debate about shortcomings or positives of 2 games(any 2 games) , but in most cases people are qualified to make sugestive comparison because they own and played both games.It's irelevant if they liked both , one or none, what is relevant is that they own it.

You do not own both games and therefore you cannot compare it, so there is no way that you can justifiably claim that  grades somewhere are not correct .You are calling people zealous , while that is exactly what you are doing , not just in this post but in every single post.Yoiu Sir are trolling as much they are.

Or do you have double standards because in  thread that i linked bellow you are telling OP that he cannot judge game in any way because he didn't play game for more then 10 minutes(which is still more then you tried with other game).But you can, ..right:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/315/index/7423294/1

Either way, they bought this game here as i did (DA 2) and they and I have every right to post whatever they feel , as long adheres the rules of  forum , and if it doesn't there is someone more qualified  here to tell them not to.They don't need some self proclaimed forum overseer to chase them around each time when their posts don't fit his skewed view.

And as for Metacritic rating, you already stated (like several dozen times just in this thread ) that you don't accept them, so why still whine about them?Good for you  for not accepting them, now stop chasing around  others that do accept them (their choice) , since you already did state your opinion about it.

One may compare other games here, but have been asked to contain them to single threads, often in Off Topic.

While you believe I am judging TW2, does not make it so. I simply state why I did not make the purchase; not comparing gameplay.

As this is a thread about Metacritic, thought here might be a good place to post my feelings, as long as I adhere to the forume rules. While my opinion is not worth more than another; tis not worth less.

And I hardly chase anyone around here; not even others that seem to think they moderate the boards....

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 mai 2011 - 12:13 .

[Corto81]

Elhanan wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Just because one might agree with the final results does not mean the process to get there is valid. A chocolate cake might look great in the window, but may disappoint when found to be made of plastic foam.

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever.

The part you skip is that while metacritic uses numbers, it ain't scientific; just subjective compilations of frequently invalid and misleading data. They say it is cake, while it is filled with nothing but platic foam. Just because you or myself agree with an outcome does not validate the process from which it is derived.

---

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever

Like I said, it's pointless, so I'm just gonna repost, and we can go in circles.
Bottom line, DA2 got inferior marks because it's an inferior game.
To both other BW titles and TW2.

Modifié par Corto81, 25 mai 2011 - 01:28 .

[Elhanan]

Corto81 wrote...

...Like I said, it's pointless, so I'm just gonna repost, and we can go in circles.
Bottom line, DA2 got inferior marks because it's an inferior game.
To both other BW titles and TW2.

And because this is your opinion, this makes it true?

I do not like anchovies, but it does not invalidate them as a pizza topping. I can even be in the majority of opinions that dislike them, but complaining that they remain on the menu would seem rather immature.

Use Metacritic, and have fun with your 10-0 votes. Just do not ask the rest of us to hold this as an objective standard of truth, as it is only a gathered store of opinions. I shall shop elsewhere.

[The Earl Of Bronze]

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Just because one might agree with the final results does not mean the process to get there is valid. A chocolate cake might look great in the window, but may disappoint when found to be made of plastic foam.

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever.

The part you skip is that while metacritic uses numbers, it ain't scientific; just subjective compilations of frequently invalid and misleading data. They say it is cake, while it is filled with nothing but platic foam. Just because you or myself agree with an outcome does not validate the process from which it is derived.

---

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever

Like I said, it's pointless, so I'm just gonna repost, and we can go in circles.
Bottom line, DA2 got inferior marks because it's an inferior game.
To both other BW titles and TW2.

In your opinion.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...
Just because one might agree with the final results does not mean the process to get there is valid. A chocolate cake might look great in the window, but may disappoint when found to be made of plastic foam.

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever.

The part you skip is that while metacritic uses numbers, it ain't scientific; just subjective compilations of frequently invalid and misleading data. They say it is cake, while it is filled with nothing but platic foam. Just because you or myself agree with an outcome does not validate the process from which it is derived.

---

Well, using that logic, what's the point of numbers and science?

Whatever evidence I present, you're just gonna push it aside.
I think the numbers for nearly every game are good and valid.
(and judging by universal acclaim or lack of it, the rating does seem to fit most games, especially the user reviews)

But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever

Like I said, it's pointless, so I'm just gonna repost, and we can go in circles.
Bottom line, DA2 got inferior marks because it's an inferior game.
To both other BW titles and TW2.

In your opinion.

Pretty much this.

Are you seriously requesting empirical evidence for something as inconcrete as quality? Did you also discover moral relativity just yesterday?

Likewise, suggesting that something has no value because it's subjective is equally ridiculous; that's an opinion in itself. I could put more stock in what I believe than what is shown to me through evidence, and it is often done so. 

@Elhanar obviously.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 25 mai 2011 - 02:11 .

[Jerrybnsn]

I give just as much credence to a user's review of a game as I would a professional review. And you can usually tell who is just ranting on a game or who is giving their honest opinion. Just because you don't have an english degree doesn't mean your review of a game worthless. They're all the same to me. Sort of, who makes an art critic? There's no such thing really.

Yet, if it's any group that can be manipulated, it's the smaller professional writer's group. You can't do that with a group of 2,000 regular gamers.

[Ottemis]

The reviews aren't in question for their value, the 'average grading' is.
I'd be happy enough to use the written reviews to help get an idea of what a game has to offer.
I'm smart enough to be able to filter the ones that aren't going to help me against the ones that will.
Seeing games are complex things though, as are the opinions people can have on them, giving something a simple grade is just not adequate and in my opinion, completely useless.

As an example: With two people handling the same arguments for and against a game, one might still give the game a much higher grade then the other because they prioritize aspects differently.
It doesn't change the pro's and con's in a game, it just changes the way we all choose what we find more or less important in a game, and what WE would judge them more heavily on.

Another example: It's been said alot that reviewers like IGN will never give a game as massive as DA2 a bad grade.
Now watch the video review for Dragon Age 2 on IGN.
It lights up almost ALL generally agreed upon issues with Dragon Age 2 as a game, if you watch the review you get a decent idea of what the pro's and con's in the game are.
If you look at the grade though, it won't nessecarily project what YOU would grade that game to be, and YES the grade is high. Does it matter though?  What's the point of looking at the grade when the review alone gives you the info you need to judge the game for yourself?

Modifié par Ottemis, 25 mai 2011 - 02:35 .

[abaris]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Yet, if it's any group that can be manipulated, it's the smaller professional writer's group. You can't do that with a group of 2,000 regular gamers.

Yes, they are manipulated. Mainly because its a very competitive market with a rather small number of magazines in any given countries. Now it doesn't work that way, that any writer is handed an envelope full of money. It's more on the lines of game developers and publishers only inviting a small number of journalists for an early sneak peak. If you have been a bad boy or girl in the past, father Christmas simply won't put cookies in your bag. So your magazine is at a disadvantage compared to others, who have played ball.

The dilemma is most obvious when certain reviews point out a lot of flaws, yet bend over to find something that still justifies and 80 or 90.

So with professional as well as user ratings, don't look at the numbers. Read what the particular person has to say. It works both ways obviously. If someone rated DAII a solid 10 and was obviously in love with the new combat which I hated, I can learn just as much as with someone rating it 0 and pointing out something else.

[Nozybidaj]

abaris wrote...

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Yet, if it's any group that can be manipulated, it's the smaller professional writer's group. You can't do that with a group of 2,000 regular gamers.

Yes, they are manipulated. Mainly because its a very competitive market with a rather small number of magazines in any given countries. Now it doesn't work that way, that any writer is handed an envelope full of money. It's more on the lines of game developers and publishers only inviting a small number of journalists for an early sneak peak. If you have been a bad boy or girl in the past, father Christmas simply won't put cookies in your bag. So your magazine is at a disadvantage compared to others, who have played ball.

The dilemma is most obvious when certain reviews point out a lot of flaws, yet bend over to find something that still justifies and 80 or 90.

Can work the other way too.  Say that reviewer didn't get invited to the big shindig or get that exclusive and feels like sticking it to the game company in his review, giving a good game a really low score.  These (and I use the term loosely) professional reviewers are no more or less unbiased or accurate in their scores than the user scores are.

Overall I think the user scores paint a fairly decent picture of how a game was received, though I wouldn't take these scores to mean anything. 

[fightright2]

Eh, I posted this elsewhere in off-topic under The Witcher 2 RPG.

But I think it should be here instead. So I'll repost it here...

I always run from a review that screams their opinion to the point of having obvious intent to sway readers to agree with his/her own view. Those that come off as a rant or rave I tend to ignore.

For me, when I look over the reviews, I look for the one or two reviews that are actually helpful in giving a neutral summary of the game so the readers can decide for themselves what they may or may not like.
Scores just don't mean much to me since I have found that many of the games that I enjoyed over the years were rated a 6 or 7, heck even 5.
Yet some with terrible storyline and gameplay have been rated perfect or near perfect from nothing more than horny 12 year olds.

Personally, I think the user reviews that are rants and raves are only meaningful to the sheep minded buyer.
As for me, I'll stick to the actual helpful reviews that let me decide for myself.

[In Exile]

Jerrybnsn wrote...

Yet, if it's any group that can be manipulated, it's the smaller professional writer's group. You can't do that with a group of 2,000 regular gamers.

No, you can. It's just really, really implausible. Think about it. DA2 sold around 1 million copies without digital sales. Much less than DA:O, obviously, but enough that 2000 people would be 0.2% of the user base. If there's some specific reason that user base really hated the game, you could get skewed numbers.

Not saying that's what happend, just saying that bribes aren't neccesarily different than a potentially smaller proportion of the fanbase.

Consider this: say most people who bought DAII rank it as a 7-8. A small group is at 3-6 and very few people are at 8-10. The 7-8 crowd could file it under forgetable and never bother to rank it. The 3-6 crowd, especially after maybe having DA:O at 9-10, goes WTF!!! and shares their opinion.

That would skew the numbers, and it's based entirely off motivation.

I'm not saying that's what happened. Personally, I don't care. But I don't think surveys are inherently less problematic than the advertising magazines game review mags.

[Lykang]

Valus wrote...

Meh, I found it a little odd that Witcher 2 received more positive reviews in less than 2 days of launch than Dragon age 2 received in 2 months. Not to say it isn't amazing and way better than DA2, because omg it is, but honestly the game is pretty long and It's hard to believe that many people finished it in that small a time frame.

That being said even if people can't accept that user scores on metacritic are reliable they need merely look to the left and see the critic reviews. Seriously, a 10 point difference between 2 AAA games is massive. Most seem to agree that Witcher 2 is A) awesomesauce and better than DA2. Of course there was PC gamers review but I honestly can't figure out what their problem was.

So that's the point. People were fast to give good reviews early on witcher 2, because they were amazed from the start of the game and had lots of fun. And when you look at DA2, the begining is such disappointment (like the rest of the game), so people were frustrated from the start to see such dumbed down game which is a shame for sequel of Dragon age.

[Corto81]

The Earl Of Bronze wrote...

Corto81 wrote...


But yeah... Using that logic, no point in arguing about anything, ever

Like I said, it's pointless, so I'm just gonna repost, and we can go in circles.
Bottom line, DA2 got inferior marks because it's an inferior game.
To both other BW titles and TW2.

In your opinion.

Yes, in my opinion.

And in opinion of the vast majority of people apparently.

You can spin the bad ratings this way and that but the FACTS are:
- most BW games get high grades from both professional reviews and user reviews
- TW2 has (so far) got generally good grades from both of those
- DA2 has received sub-par pro reviews (for a BW game) and absolutely horrible user reviews

No how true those average ratings are, we can argue.
But taking into account that Metacritic is a rather good guide to a game's quality, the obvious conclusion (IMO yes, but again, rather obvious) is that BW simply released a sub-par product.
And that, as a sequel to their best-selling game yet.

[inkjay]

Corto81 wrote...

But taking into account that Metacritic is a rather good guide to a game's quality, the obvious conclusion (IMO yes, but again, rather obvious) is that BW simply released a sub-par product.
And that, as a sequel to their best-selling game yet.

Seriously, one wouldn't even need to elaborate on this. Someone that doesn't consider the general consensus on DA2 is that of a mediocre game is completely deluded.

[Elhanan]

Corto81 wrote...

Yes, in my opinion.

And in opinion of the vast majority of people apparently.

You can spin the bad ratings this way and that but the FACTS are:
- most BW games get high grades from both professional reviews and user reviews
- TW2 has (so far) got generally good grades from both of those
- DA2 has received sub-par pro reviews (for a BW game) and absolutely horrible user reviews

No how true those average ratings are, we can argue.
But taking into account that Metacritic is a rather good guide to a game's quality, the obvious conclusion (IMO yes, but again, rather obvious) is that BW simply released a sub-par product.
And that, as a sequel to their best-selling game yet.

The highlighted portion is my problem, as I do not contend that Metacritic is a rather good guide to a game's quality. For me, it is a site dressed up to look factual, but is soley based on subjective materials and equations (eg; altering numbers based on subjective opinions).

No need to spin the bad numbers; don't use them much at all.

[Elhanan]

inkjay wrote...[

Seriously, one wouldn't even need to elaborate on this. Someone that doesn't consider the general consensus on DA2 is that of a mediocre game is completely deluded.

You have the right to wrong if you wish....

[ShakeZoohla]

Critics don't use scientific methods to critique any game, they only appear to be scientific because most people use the same measurements (the 0-10 thing). So i disagree with thee OP. Sorry buddy. Reviews are of a bunch of other peoples opinions/ reactions/ writings about the experiences they had within a game. They are not reflections of excellence, merely indicators of it, if that's what you've decided i guess. Some reviewers don't use scoring systems at all, they just write their reviews and that's all they are. I personally think this is the best approach, simply because it treats each game individually, without comparing them based on, what i think, are arbitrary numbers.

I think meta critic is pretty useless in that way. Its just the average of a bunch of arbitrary numbers assigned to a certain game. The critique is not in the numbers to me, its in the words.

[Elhanan]

ShakeZoohla wrote...

Critics don't use scientific methods to critique any game, they only appear to be scientific because most people use the same measurements (the 0-10 thing). So i disagree with thee OP. Sorry buddy. Reviews are of a bunch of other peoples opinions/ reactions/ writings about the experiences they had within a game. They are not reflections of excellence, merely indicators of it, if that's what you've decided i guess. Some reviewers don't use scoring systems at all, they just write their reviews and that's all they are. I personally think this is the best approach, simply because it treats each game individually, without comparing them based on, what i think, are arbitrary numbers.

I think meta critic is pretty useless in that way. Its just the average of a bunch of arbitrary numbers assigned to a certain game. The critique is not in the numbers to me, its in the words.

According to that one pre-posted link, the Pro scores may not even be an average; just a final total of numbers crunched arbitrarily.

http://www.brainygam...metacritic.html

Modifié par Elhanan, 25 mai 2011 - 05:55 .

[Sphynx118]

We all know DA2 is a "failure" by normal bioware standards.
Metacritic shows this aswell.

Most gaming companies use metacritic as some sort of pointer to how a game was received.

Denying that metacritic has any truth to it is just silly. It has both extremes (fanbois and haters) and those extremes often form a stable "general" consensus.

DA2 got a ****ty score. Witcher 2 got a great score.
Denying the score wont change how ****ty/great a game is.

Short story: DA2 is [profanity removed] and The witcher 2 is great

Modifié par JohnEpler, 25 mai 2011 - 06:14 .