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Why everyone hates DA2 when TW2 made many of the same design decisions?


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#1
Dasher1010

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I posted this on my blog already but it bears repeating here so taht the devs can see this.

After playing through The Witcher 2 and seeing that the game made many of the same decisions that Dragon Age 2 made that people usually criticize DA2 for, I'm trying to rationalize why TW2 gets so much more praise. I sure that for some, it might be becuase TW2 has recently managed to one-up Crysis 2 and Metro 2033 as a graphics benchmark (let's face it, this game is beautiful and ubersampling is unplayable, making it a perfect benchmark game) but I'm looking more at this from a perspective of game design rather than graphics. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

1. A three-act structure.
DA2 got a lot of criticism for taking a world that was once open and then making it both confined and linear. TW2 did the same thing but the difference was that each act took place in a different location. DA2 could have been improved if either Kirkwall changed with each act or if the game took place in a different city in each act. Moreover, TW2 whet players' appetites for more while DA2 just made people happy that the game was over due to the reused dungeons and A button mashing. Also, TW2 built up to act 3, DA2 simply dumped the final act onto you abruptly and then randomly hit you with the fianl quest just as quickly. There was no real indication of what players where going to fight or what they were doing in DA2 while TW2 gives us Letho as an antagonist right off the bat. TW2 simply told a better story because of it due to it being more focused since a linear story needs an objective set for the protagonists right off the bat.

2. The took a turned based system and made it hack and slash
The real issue with DA2 was that it went halfway there and as a result felt clunky while TW2 feels fluid as an action RPG. DA2 is just uneven and I find my self mashing the A button as fast as possible to make sure that I increase my DPS instead of focusing on mobility like a true action RPG should be doing. DA3 should be either a pure action RPG with the ability to dodge and more interesting boss fights and less of a turn-based/real time hybrid or go back to DAO's combat system. The current combat system tries to appeal to everyone and instead appeals to nobody. Giving consoles auto-attack back made the game feel like DAO again which fixed this problem but did so far too late and DA3 should have this available as the default option.

3. Too few abilities and too many upgrades
This is actually a criticism with TW2 that I have but no game is truly perfect. It needs to be improved with both games and is really my biggest complaint with TW2. Hopefully both series will offer players more options for abilities in combat intead of wasting level-ups on upgrading abilities that the player already has and DA3 will actually go back to allowing players to select lockpicking upon level up instead of taking four levels to learn how to lockpick at the cost of other stats.

4. A cliffhanging ending that sets up an expansion pack to nickle and dime players
The issue here is that TW2 whet players appetites for more while DA2 made gamers happy that it was finally over since they no longer had to deal with the tedium. Less pointless delivery quests and reused environments would have gone a long way towards making gamers feel like they wanted to buy the post-endgame DLC. Also, months after release, DA2 didn't solve the conflict that the endgame created, we only got an item pack that nobody wanted.

5. Bugs at launch
TW2 currently has a number of bugs, including a memory leak. DA2 was also incredibly buggy at release. The difference is that CDProject have said that we'll be getting a patch in a few days, DA2 took a month to patch. The same comparison could be made with Fallout: New Vegas, the game was patched only about two weeks after launch which cleared up a number of issues. Bioware not fixing their product in a timely manner showed that they didn't care about their fans.

6. A Mass Effect-style dialog system
The real problem was the fact that Hawke's personalities were forced on players, instead of letting players choose what they wanted to say in each conversation rather than selecting their version of Hawke at the beginning of the game. Also, TW2 gave players more persuade options and Geralt's personality was mostly based on persuade choices that upgraded the more you used them. DA2's dialog system was a wreck and didn't even give players a neutral/laconic option on the wheel while persuades were few and far between. The dialog wheel is fine, but ditch the personalities and give players more situations to persuade people

Now for things that TW2 did right that Bioware could learn form

1. Optimization
TW2's low settings actually run very, very well on most people's machines while DA2 on the 360 had characters expanding and contracting during cutscenes which said to me that DA2 was a bad PC to console port that didn't take advantage of lesser hardware. This was really a slap in the face after Bioware promised that DA2 would run better on consoles. Crysis 2 is yet another good example of a good PC to console port while the Assassin's Creed games are good examples of good console to PC ports (if you ignore Ubisoft Montreal's horrible DRM). If consoles are that much of a priority. Just remember to not punish players for not having a gaming PC or choosing one platform over another.

2. Minigames
TW2 offers some good minigames that were genuinely fun to play. Final Fantasy VII and Fable 2 are also good examples of this. DA2 only offered distractions in the form of delivery quests that had no story behind them for a miniscule amount of gold.

3. Graphics
Playing TW2 at medium or higher is a great experience but DA2 stylized their graphics just to get away with cutting corners. While DA2 will probably age better, it's still a low-poly game that didn't detail its world enough.

4. QTE's
I personally loved these as they made conversations and cutscenes interactive and reminded me of Heavy Rain. It's a shame that DA2 didn't have these since ME2 did.

5. Exploration
I LOVED exploring in TW2, particularly since I'd frequently discover areas that sideqests wouldn't take me to. DA2's Wounded Coast was just a linear strip of land that could have been expanded.

6. Choices that actually matter
Act 2 in TW2 played out completely differently depending on how you planned on resolving the final quest of Act 1. DA2 played out the same way regardless with only a handful of decisions truly mattering. More mutually exclusive quests and ways to change the plot over the course of the game would have gone a long way to improving DA2.

7. Uncensored Nudity
The sex scenes in both DA games just looked awkward. They were done better in DA2 but mostly because the devs didn't bother to model underwear with invisible male genitalia sticking out penetrating through a pair of panties anymore due to a short dev cycle.


So that's probably why TW2 gets less crap than DA2 when they both made many of the same design decisions. So please, don't look at DA2 as a success vindicated by TW2 doing the same thing. CDProjekt simply made a MUCH better version of the same game, probably because they took four years to make it and didn't rush it out the door.

Modifié par Dasher1010, 22 mai 2011 - 09:02 .


#2
silentassassin264

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Because people are stupid. You honestly had some people get angry when DA2 was announced to just have Hawke, no origins, and say they were going to skip DA2 for TW2. Because Geralt has so many origins...

#3
Dreadstruck

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DA2 was a vast departure from Origins, thus it gets the crap. Some people who liked DA:O are of course dissapointed.

TW2 on the other hand, doesn't claim nor pretend to be Origins. It's a game on its own still faithful(kinda) to the first one.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 22 mai 2011 - 09:01 .


#4
Skilled Seeker

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Avalla'ch wrote...

DA2 was a vast departure from Origins, thus it gets the crap.
TW2 on the other hand, doesn't claim nor pretend to be Origins. It's a game on its own.


Neither does DA2. It isn't called DAO2. And the marketing for DA2 made it clear that there would be changes and what those changes would be. They also released a demo which is a good representation of the game.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 22 mai 2011 - 09:02 .


#5
Dreadstruck

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Skilled Seeker wrote...
Neither does DA2. It isn't called DAO2.

So shall I consider it a spinoff?:innocent:

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 22 mai 2011 - 09:02 .


#6
Skilled Seeker

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Avalla'ch wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...
Neither does DA2. It isn't called DAO2.

So shall I consider it a spinoff?:innocent:

Nope, just that the franchise moved in a slightly different direction. Deal with it.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 22 mai 2011 - 09:03 .


#7
Dasher1010

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

Avalla'ch wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...
Neither does DA2. It isn't called DAO2.

So shall I consider it a spinoff?:innocent:

Nope, just that the franchise moved in a different direction altogether. Deal with it.


So did The Witcher. So far it looks like people here read the title to my post and not the article itself.

#8
Dreadstruck

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Skilled Seeker wrote...
Nope, just that the franchise moved in a different direction altogether. Deal with it.


Deal with that? I am just posting facts, or are those numerous "dissapointment" threads part of some conspiracy?
And please do show where I am openly hating on the game.
But I see you still haven't lost your touch, lol.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 22 mai 2011 - 09:05 .


#9
Skilled Seeker

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I read your post. You bring up good points, though I disagree with you on personalities (I think they're an excellent addition) and QTEs (horrible mechanic that serves only to frustrate players and has no place in RPGs).

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 22 mai 2011 - 09:06 .


#10
What a Twist

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TW2 did them well. DA2 made a mess of the franchise.

#11
Skilled Seeker

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Avalla'ch wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...
Nope, just that the franchise moved in a different direction altogether. Deal with it.


Deal with that? I am just posting facts, or are those numerous "dissapointment" threads part of some conspiracy?
And please do show where I am openly hating on the game.
But I see you still haven't lost your touch, lol.

Where did I bring up hate or conspiracy in this thread? Also what facts have you posted? You are seriously annoying.

#12
Dasher1010

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What a Twist wrote...

TW2 did them well. DA2 made a mess of the franchise.


Agreed. When I was playing TW2, I kept feeling like I was playing DA2, except it was good. proof taht it wasn't Bioware's streamlining that ruined DA2, it was EA's deadline.

#13
Dreadstruck

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Skilled Seeker wrote...
Where did I bring up hate or conspiracy in this thread? Also what facts have you posted? You are seriously annoying.

Do you take everything so literally?
All I said is that some people *are* dissapointed with DA2(mostly because of the departure from Origins and streamlining among other things), which is true.

Don't be so denial over it.

Agreed. When I was playing TW2, I kept feeling like I was playing DA2,
except it was good. proof taht it wasn't Bioware's streamlining that
ruined DA2, it was EA's deadline.

I agree, the EA influence really shows here. I am just hoping for an improvement with DA3!:devil:

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 22 mai 2011 - 09:14 .


#14
Lord_Valandil

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

It isn't called DAO2.


Oh look, it's the same, old, tired excuse.
Just because it isn't called DAO2 doesn't mean that it has the right to be such a disappointing game.

And also, The Witcher 2 isn't getting so much hate because the team behind it did most things right, apparently.
Bioware did not.

Easy question.

#15
Chromie

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Dasher1010 wrote...

1. A three-act structure.
 
2. The took a turned based system and made it hack and slash
 
3. Too few abilities and too many upgrades
 
4. A cliffhanging ending that sets up an expansion pack to nickle and dime players
 
5. Bugs at launch


6. A Mass Effect-style dialog system


1. Witcher 1 also had acts just more. So this isn't new yes it's shorter but the game story wise is good unlike DA2. DA2 tried to step away from saving the world which I applaud but it wasn't executed very well while Witcher 1 and 2 are filled with political strife which somehow end up becoming part of Geralt's life. Witcher 2 also is a direct sequel so we get a quest that has a lot to do with the original.

2. Umm when was Witcher 1 turn based? Witcher 1 AND Witcher 2 are BOTH action based rpg. Yes you could pause in Witcher 1 but you couldn't setup tactics or que up abilites. So I don't know where you got that from.

3. Too few abilites? Same amount of skills as before! Infact an extra sign if your going down the magic tree. Trees are better imo. I like that we can't get everything. We shouldn't be able to. You should take stuff that make it possible for Geralt to survive not make the game easy.

4. First how can CDProjekt nicle and dime us when they want to give DLC for free? They also want to do full blown expansions so I can't wait.

5. Witcher 2 has already had 1 patch were they fixed a lot of the issues and a memory leak. DA:O still has it's memory leak. There is a patch coming next week and DA2 still hasn't even been patched to 1.03 yet. And come on Witcher Enhanced Edition who knows maybe CDProjekt might do that again we all know DA2 needs it.

6. I like the dialogue system from Mass Effect. Like you said it gave us abilites that were used in combat but ALSO in dialogue sequences that can be leveled up by succesful persuasion, intimidation or Axii control. It's great that they managed to incorprate an ability like that into combat much better but also dialogue.


By the way everyone Quick Time Events are OPTIONAL. So before you start complaing realize they can be turned off.

Modifié par Ringo12, 22 mai 2011 - 09:22 .


#16
Icinix

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There is even quite a lot of story similarities between DA and TW.
TW2 also took inspiration from Mass Effect and Assassins Creed.

But I think mostly the difference between DA2 and TW2 is the depth of what is on hand.
About a quarter of the way through DA2 - you realise that nothing you do really matters nor affects the world.
While a quarter of the way through TW2 you could be playing a whole new story in a whole new location.

The Witcher 2 had everything that DA2 looked at and said "Nah, thats too hard." - OR - Dare I say it - it wasn't what the audience they were aiming at would want.

#17
Chromie

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Icinix wrote...
While a quarter of the way through TW2 you could be playing a whole new story in a whole new location.


Yup Witcher 2 can even change Act II and III completely based on your decisions. I have to see a Bioware game do that.

Different quests, npcs, area and romances in Act II and III depending on your decisions.

#18
CalJones

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I was going to bring up Witcher (1)'s acts but you beat me to it.

I really got the feeling, after playing DA2 for the first time, that the Dev team had looked at The Witcher and decided to borrow many elements from it. The chapters, flashier combat, the two factions (templars vs scoia'tel, or templars vs mages).

In fact, the ending is not that dissimilar in so far as even if you end up siding with the templars, the grand master turns out to be a power-crazed nut job and has to be put down.

The difference is that there are a lot of cool little quests in the Witcher such as the autopsy/whodunnit, the princess's curse and the vigilante werewolf. DA2's quests nealry all boil down to "go here and kill stuff."

I don't have Witcher 2 yet (it's in the post) so I can't compare it, but I'm expecting good things. I do like DA2, but whilst it does have some improvements over Origins, it does also feel rushed, especially Chapter 3.

#19
Icinix

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Ringo12 wrote...

Icinix wrote...
While a quarter of the way through TW2 you could be playing a whole new story in a whole new location.


Yup Witcher 2 can even change Act II and III completely based on your decisions. I have to see a Bioware game do that.

Different quests, npcs, area and romances in Act II and III depending on your decisions.


Tell me about it, I have been totally blown away by the way the game looks at what you've done and changes everything accordingly.

In DA2, by the halfway mark, decisions were easy because I knew they didn't really change anything. I just went with whatever I thought would be ogod.
In TW2, there has been so many times where I've been "GAAAH??!! What do I do??" - all the while the little countdown wheel vanishes! Knowing how much can and will change, decisions really are difficult to make, but not in a bad way.

Edit: Oh, and TW2 has maybe the greatest quest of all time. The Hangover!

Modifié par Icinix, 22 mai 2011 - 09:34 .


#20
Chromie

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Icinix wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Icinix wrote...
While a quarter of the way through TW2 you could be playing a whole new story in a whole new location.


Yup Witcher 2 can even change Act II and III completely based on your decisions. I have to see a Bioware game do that.

Different quests, npcs, area and romances in Act II and III depending on your decisions.


Tell me about it, I have been totally blown away by the way the game looks at what you've done and changes everything accordingly.

In DA2, by the halfway mark, decisions were easy because I knew they didn't really change anything. I just went with whatever I thought would be ogod.
In TW2, there has been so many times where I've been "GAAAH??!! What do I do??" - all the while the little countdown wheel vanishes! Knowing how much can and will change, decisions really are difficult to make, but not in a bad way.

Edit: Oh, and TW2 has maybe the greatest quest of all time. The Hangover!


Oh definietely infact the timed decisions add a lot to the dire situations I feel forcing us to go with our decisions that we pick based on instinct at times.

Don't forget the Succubus quest or the Troll!

And so agree with you on mingames. Bioware doesn't seem to care about that anymore. I miss Pazaak.

Arm wresting, dice poker and fist fights are all fun.

#21
Dave of Canada

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The Witcher 2 is getting it's fair share of hate, just not on these boards. I've recieved a death threat from a PC user when I mentioned that his argument about the game being "made for consoles" didn't make sense.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 mai 2011 - 09:55 .


#22
Malanek

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I haven't quite finished TW2 yet so it is difficult to comment. I think people are more forgiving of the problems in TW2 because of a combination of lower expectations and the fact what it does well (largely story and immersiveness), it does really well. I've had a great time with it so far but there are a lot of ways it could be better and less frustrating.

#23
In Exile

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Dasher1010 wrote...

What a Twist wrote...

TW2 did them well. DA2 made a mess of the franchise.


Agreed. When I was playing TW2, I kept feeling like I was playing DA2, except it was good. proof taht it wasn't Bioware's streamlining that ruined DA2, it was EA's deadline.


That was my take, too. Putting aside differences in the combat system, Witcher 2 executed well. It was a much smaller game that its predecessor, but it had real and significant story paths and handled later act relevations very well by foreshadowing well.

That being said, I don't think DA2 wrecked the franchise. But they needed another 1 1/2 for th game.

Modifié par In Exile, 22 mai 2011 - 10:00 .


#24
Chromie

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To quote PC gamer "It's a triple AAA game with an indie soul' about Witcher 2.

#25
PSUHammer

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Icinix wrote...

The Witcher 2 had everything that DA2 looked at and said "Nah, thats too hard." - OR - Dare I say it - it wasn't what the audience they were aiming at would want.



I like both games (still in Act 1 on TW2) and appreciate what each is trying to do, but, I have to really agree with you, here.  It appears that the "streamlining" Bioware has alluded to to cull the fanbase of shooters and popular console titles has taken some of the pure fun out of the game.  TW2 retains much of this, and is beautiful to boot.

It just felt like DA2 was punishing you for exploring as you kept running over the same ground.  TW2 is begging you to explore it's world.  And it's pacing is incredible.

That being said, I have read contradictory thread posts by people over the last few months beotching about voiced Hawke and no Origins yet pining for TW2 in the next breath.  Seems kind of ironic..