645 réponses à ce sujet

[88mphSlayer]

The Witcher 2 did a lot of things to improve the experience from the first game, make it harder/more thoughtful for gamers, etc.

Dragon Age 2 did a lot of things based on a cynical view of gamers, that we can't get things already setup in the first game... nah, The Witcher 2 never once treats gamers with cynicism

[In Exile]

88mphSlayer wrote...

The Witcher 2 did a lot of things to improve the experience from the first game, make it harder/more thoughtful for gamers, etc.

Dragon Age 2 did a lot of things based on a cynical view of gamers, that we can't get things already setup in the first game... nah, The Witcher 2 never once treats gamers with cynicism

I beg to differ. The 250-300 item carrying inventory instead of inventory tetris?

[Chromie]

In Exile wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

The Witcher 2 did a lot of things to improve the experience from the first game, make it harder/more thoughtful for gamers, etc.

Dragon Age 2 did a lot of things based on a cynical view of gamers, that we can't get things already setup in the first game... nah, The Witcher 2 never once treats gamers with cynicism

I beg to differ. The 250-300 item carrying inventory instead of inventory tetris?

I'd prefer a bad inventory over 3 different environemnts honestly.

[axl99]

Addai67 wrote...

Both sequels are disappointing, but for different reasons. DA2 was lazy and half a game. TW2 took the twitch mechanics people complained about in TW1 and made them the foundation of the combat system, then made the first half of the game so combat-heavy and difficult even on Easy that you had no choice but to slog through their awkward mechanics. It's a beautiful twitchfest, but still, if that's the direction DA3 goes- and if they put in anything like those damnable QTE's- then I'll be dropping yet another fantasy franchise.

Agreed on the TW 2 combat mechanics. It's got a bit of a learning curve.

The combat tutorial windows that pop up during the prologue won't be much help for beginning players, considering how some of the text and button icons are tiny. A refresher trip to the journal remedies that, although it takes you away from the moment. 

The combat I find has similar issues I saw with the first Assassin's Creed in that it's controls are constrained by the animation. As a result there are small delays between commands. For instance when you're throwing a glyph and dodging, blocking and counterattacking. In rare cases I've seen with players on livestream, the button to unsheath their sword was unresponsive.

The hitbox/collision box for parrying attacks is woefully small as well considering Geralt always employs a high block which leaves everything from the chest down vulnerable and forces you to use dodge in its place. Not that dodging is a bad thing but I find it makes you take the longer route in flanking an enemy and you may even bump into another enemy as they're trying to surround you. 

As opposed to redoing the whole animation for a single move, it may be easier to speed up certain keyframes programmatically. These are technical balancing issues that might be resolved with a patch.

For players who are using gamepads, the UI for runes/traps/money transactions is a bit deceptive because of where the icons were placed, it gives the psychological impression you can move the analog stick in a semi-circular motion when in fact it functions in a more linear manner. Again, something that could be fixed in a patch.

The combat in essense tries to encourage you to use everything in your arsenal in every single fight. Preparations with potions, traps, setting up glyphs, then moving in and micro-ing around enemies and exploiting their weaknesses [once you find what they are]. Not that I mind a bit variety in my combat, but that's a lot to do at once considering you might not know what's out there and how to prepare ahead of time. It would be nice in the beginning to have a relatively robust bestiary of the local monsters, as it befits Geralt's knowledge as a Witcher. 

[Morroian]

RageGT wrote...

I will not quote Persephone again but she is right. TW2 is the best cRPG to this date. It is a milestone in every aspect and it is for a mature audience. Not for the audience of DA2, definitely!

And yet Persephone likes both.

That statement is pretty damn immature coming from someone from someone claiming maturity.

[Harcken]

What a Twist wrote...

TW2 did them well. DA2 made a mess of the franchise.

This is my exact thought. Going into the Witcher 2; I expect an awesome action RPG with a dark setting and a cool plot--and that's what I got.

Going into DA2, I expent an awesome old school RPG with a dark setting and a cool plot--I got some game that looked like it was taken from the Xbox Live Arcade with a boring, generic setting (Flotsam, a measly village in TW2 was more interesting than all of Kirkwall), and a nonexistant plot that never kept me on the edge of my seat.

One thing that I really loved about the Witcher 2, Mass Effect 2, KOTOR, and Jade Empire is that they all have that sense of discovery feel. The plot is largely shrouded in mystery, and the player learns more and more with each and every mission, like the pieces of a puzzle coming together. Each mission reveals just a bit more to make you want to find out what happens next. In DA2, I felt no drive to keep going, there was no "mystery" feeling...the plot jwas just a straight up snoozefest.

The post-completion tone of both games was clear to me. TW2 just felt like a labor of love, where every little detail felt purposeful; I actually felt like I was in the world of the Witcher. DA2 just felt like a rushed train ride where much of the game seemed like it was designed by 1 intern, and copy pasted by another.

Modifié par Harcken, 23 mai 2011 - 06:27 .

[Valcutio]

The Witcher 2 is in an entirely different league than DA2. It's not even fair to compare them. DA2 is a bad, mediocre at best, game. The Witcher 2 is one of the best games ever released.

[petipas1414]

A bunch of people say The Witcher 2 is one of the best games they've played / maybe their favorite.

NO ONE... and I mean NO ONE... says Dragon Age 2 is their favorite game... hell, even the people who dig it say it's mediocre.

Also, if you're saying TW2 made some of the same design decisions that DA2 did, then I'll just say that given the fan feedback, the devs behind TW2 are a hell of a lot better than the ones who did DA2. Mainly because they gave a ****.

[Drachasor]

petipas1414 wrote...

A bunch of people say The Witcher 2 is one of the best games they've played / maybe their favorite.

NO ONE... and I mean NO ONE... says Dragon Age 2 is their favorite game... hell, even the people who dig it say it's mediocre.

Also, if you're saying TW2 made some of the same design decisions that DA2 did, then I'll just say that given the fan feedback, the devs behind TW2 are a hell of a lot better than the ones who did DA2. Mainly because they gave a ****.

Like I said earlier in the thread, if you take a design decision and don't give adequate time to implement it, then you'll end up with something that is at best mediocre.  It doesn't matter how good the design is if the time isn't there.  Heck, half the time the design intent can get completely obscured by lack of time.  This is why rushing games is bad.

[Riloux]

I said this in another thread. The Witcher did what it could and did it very well. Dragon Age 2 tried to do everything, and did it very poorly.

[Aramintai]

I believe that TW2 is everything that DA2 was not - a proper sequel to the first game. It's certainly not without it's flaws, like "consolized" menu and rather hard to learn combat system but everything else is far superior to DA2:

1. Better main story. A seamless transition from the first game, coherently continuing the story arc of protagonists' adventure. It's well though out and really engaging to boot, with many unpredictable twists and consequences. Tapping toes in Kirkwall now seems like a small backwater town skirmish.

2. Better protagonist. I know it's hard to compete with such an old and established book character as Geralt, especially considering how well they have managed to present him in the game. But BioWare is known for making good characters, so they could at least have tried, instead of giving us some dummy doll, lacking any personality whatsoever. Also, maybe the problem is that DA2 has a new protagonist, but even after completing the game I have not felt any connection to Hawke, his\\her problems or what his\\her "decisions" wrought in the world. All in all, Geralt is much more interesting in terms of personality and watching his life and those around him unfold is much more engaging, sometimes heartwrenchingly so.

3. A big branching tree of quests. There are many main and side quests that have several options of solving them differently and with different consequences. Not to mention the branching of the main story which provides completely different experience for 2/3s of the game, which adds a great amount of replayability. DA2 is straight as an arrow compared to TW2.

4. Better graphics and environments. TW2 is a new benchmark for PC, that's for sure. The graphics are astounding, especially the vegetation. Really well though out and drawn environments (no recycled maps!) and complex system of everyday life of the world's inhabitants brings fresh air of believable realism to the game. And it puts DA2 to shame - stylized look or no, the world in it looks lifeless and barren compared to TW2.

4. Combat animation. The first TW had very nice realistic sword moves and finishers. TW2 really improved on that - mo-cap FTW! DA2's "awesome button" unrealistic gory combat animations are standing by the side, smoking nervously.

Now I can ramble on about other aspects of those games, like mature sex scenes, companions and other characters, but it will make the post too big. Those points above should be enough to point out how inferior DA2 looks compared to TW2, in my humble opinion of course. So as to the question of the original OP - no, I don't think that TW2 and DA2 are all that similar given a closer look. They are not even on the same level. The hate for DA2 is justified because it failed to meet the expectations and deliver a proper sequel to DA:O, whereas TW2 did it's job quite well.

P.S. I just hope that BioWare guys would play TW2 and take some points on how to make DA3 better.

Modifié par Aramintai, 23 mai 2011 - 07:35 .

[Skilled Seeker]

TW's anmations are not realistic. Waving your sword high over your head is something a retard does, not a professional swordsman. This was discussed a few pages back.

[Aramintai]

Alistairlover94 wrote...
I agree with your every point. Except for the underlined part being considered a flaw. How on earth is complexity a flaw? If anything, that should be considered a good thing. Once I figured out how the combat works in TW2, it just felt so incredibly satisfying and fun(definitely an improvement over TW1's click-click-click, IMO). Other than that, I agree with your every poin

I agree, but some people were complaining that it's hard to learn and found it somewhat dissapointingly action-advenure-ishly consolized. I like challenging games but some training tutorial would have been nice, not just small tip note and a whole hoard of plated soldiers to fight in the prologue. Personally, I finaly grasped it nearing the end of the Act II when I upgraded the swordsmanship path to have all those nice combat abilities, then it was easy as pie to beat those big monsters, bosses and crowds. And I finally understood why people are comparing it to Demon's Souls - it really is a satisfying challenge. DA2 is really dumbed down for wider (casual) audiences in that aspect that's for sure.

Modifié par Aramintai, 23 mai 2011 - 08:35 .

[AudioEpics]

petipas1414 wrote...

A bunch of people say The Witcher 2 is one of the best games they've played / maybe their favorite.

NO ONE... and I mean NO ONE... says Dragon Age 2 is their favorite game... hell, even the people who dig it say it's mediocre.

Also, if you're saying TW2 made some of the same design decisions that DA2 did, then I'll just say that given the fan feedback, the devs behind TW2 are a hell of a lot better than the ones who did DA2. Mainly because they gave a ****.

I haven't played The Witcher 2 yet (though I did play the first one) but I can honestly say that for me, Dragon Age 2 is one of the greatest games I have EVER played and I do mean this absolutely seriously. 
The most important reason for this is the storytelling. I really think Dragon Age 2 has the best writing I've ever seen in a game and it's head and shoulders above the competition in that department. 

[Firky]

Not everyone "hates" DAII, OP. I thought it was a great game. I was also a fan of The Witcher when it came out. (And Origins, and old school RPGs.)

I like The Witcher 2 a lot, but you could easily argue it has been streamlined, simplified etc. Food has gone/ alcohol bases and specific reagents. (I loved food in The Witcher, 3 types of chicken.) The backpack is now just a list that isn't particularly useful - it could sort items based on weight/value etc to offset encumberance. (I used to do that in the grid.)

It has clearly been optimized for gamepad. The fact that you have to position yourself to pick up loot is rather annoying. They've removed higher view etc etc. Although it feels more "console" in that regard than multiplatform, to me, I do think it still works fine on PC - like a shooter more than a cRPG.

The combat is greatly improved, more fluid etc, but there are some real headscratching moments. Without trying to spoil anything, although you can do quests to improve your chances against Act 1 boss, you still have to just dodge, trap and trigger a cutscene to beat it. Act 2 boss, you can't even use your alchemy at all and as soon as you figure out how to position yourself to hit him, he's dead. (And if you can't do that, you're dead.)

Ultimately, I think many are realising that what they really want is a detailed (at least semi) open world in an RPG, interactivity (like guards attacking you if you don't sheath your sword) and divergent paths for choices and consequences.

I don't think it's even a feeling of "meaningful choice" because I didn't realise just how divergent those paths were in TW2 until I replayed bits - many consequences are quite well hidden, and you don't even realise you are shaping the game. By contrast, in DAII, I really enjoyed the "powerless" choice thing. I found it evocative. (I yelled at my PC at the end of the Shepherding Wolves quest.) But I do like TW2's too. (I'm not sure how many replays I've got in me, though, with those bosses and QTEs. Also, I rarely replay games, so a large proprortion of TW2's story will be missed by me, probably.)

Both have problems and strengths and will appeal to different gamers. I probably found DAII easier to love, but I think TW2 was a wonderful game. For me, it's no surprise that people who don't like recycled areas will like TW2's impossibly gorgeous world. People who felt that "choice illusion" in DAII wasn't what they wanted like vastly divergent paths. It's a no-brainer.

[Aramintai]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

TW's anmations are not realistic. Waving your sword high over your head is something a retard does, not a professional swordsman. This was discussed a few pages back.

It is. First of, it can be pulled off by a real mo-cap actor-fencer. Second, witchers have specific and effective fighting techniques and they are considered among the best and most feared swordsmen in TW world, so I doubt anyone there consider their fighting skills retarted. Third, witchers, being mutants, have much higher reflexes and agility than a normal human being and move much faster in combat, so where normal human swordsmen wouldn't dare to expose themselves trying to sluggishly pull off that flashy overhead mill move, witcher can do it in a blink of an eye and have a countermeasure in case his opponent would try to cut in.

Modifié par Aramintai, 23 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[Dreadstruck]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

TW's anmations are not realistic. Waving your sword high over your head is something a retard does, not a professional swordsman. This was discussed a few pages back.

Hey genius, the animation IS realistic, and it's called Jodan-no-kamae, a basic kenjutsu stance.
Similiar stances are also found in Italian and German schools of longsword, which are called Bocca di falcone or Dach.

Get your damn facts straight next time.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 23 mai 2011 - 08:54 .

[Zanallen]

Avalla'ch wrote...

Hey genius, the stance IS realistic, and it's called Jodan-no-kamae, a basic kenjutsu stance.
Similiar stances are also found in Italian and German schools of longsword, which are called Bocca di falcone or Dach.

There is nothing realistic about two grown men in pajamas play fighting with sticks.

[Dreadstruck]

Zanallen wrote...
There is nothing realistic about two grown men in pajamas play fighting with sticks.

And how is that related to authenticity of the Witcher combat stance?
It looks kinda real to me.

EDIT:

Allright, better now?

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 23 mai 2011 - 09:02 .

[Zanallen]

Avalla'ch wrote...

Zanallen wrote...
There is nothing realistic about two grown men in pajamas play fighting with sticks.

And how is that related to authenticity of the Witcher combat stance?
It looks kinda real to me.

Its not. On topic, its been a while since I've played the Witcher. The stance itself is legit, but does Geralt attack from said stance in a realistic manner? I've heard talk of "twirling" above his head. Like a lasso or something. That would be silly because sword swings do not require a wind-up.

Edit: Now it looks like they are wearing fancy silk pajamas under their armor.

Modifié par Zanallen, 23 mai 2011 - 09:03 .

[Dreadstruck]

Zanallen wrote...

Its not. On topic, its been a while since I've played the Witcher. The stance itself is legit, but does Geralt attack from said stance in a realistic manner? I've heard talk of "twirling" above his head. Like a lasso or something. That would be silly because sword swings do not require a wind-up.

Edit: Now it looks like they are wearing fancy silk pajamas under their armor.

Touché

In any case, I was mostly talking about the stance itself, which *is* legit. The sword swinging? Perhaps not, but in this world. Witchers are mutants.

I could ask some swordsmanship expert to confirm that though,

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 23 mai 2011 - 09:20 .

[DragonRageGT]

Morroian wrote...

RageGT wrote...

I will not quote Persephone again but she is right. TW2 is the best cRPG to this date. It is a milestone in every aspect and it is for a mature audience. Not for the audience of DA2, definitely!

And yet Persephone likes both.

That statement is pretty damn immature coming from someone from someone claiming maturity.

Why? Mature players like myself can still like the game but we are not "the way of the audience" ML mentioned in some interview pre DA2 release.

[Chromie]

AudioEpics wrote...

petipas1414 wrote...

A bunch of people say The Witcher 2 is one of the best games they've played / maybe their favorite.

NO ONE... and I mean NO ONE... says Dragon Age 2 is their favorite game... hell, even the people who dig it say it's mediocre.

Also, if you're saying TW2 made some of the same design decisions that DA2 did, then I'll just say that given the fan feedback, the devs behind TW2 are a hell of a lot better than the ones who did DA2. Mainly because they gave a ****.

I haven't played The Witcher 2 yet (though I did play the first one) but I can honestly say that for me, Dragon Age 2 is one of the greatest games I have EVER played and I do mean this absolutely seriously. 
The most important reason for this is the storytelling. I really think Dragon Age 2 has the best writing I've ever seen in a game and it's head and shoulders above the competition in that department. 

Why is it better? Is the politics you see more? Witcher 2 hell Witcher 1 does a better job there. Is it because it seems darker? Admit it Witcher is better.

I like that DA2 tried a new plot instead of saving the world but it wasn't executed very well. I just can't agree it being the best game anyone had played...imo

Sword thing can you agree people do fight with swords over their heads?

@Aramintai I like more complexity. Witcher 2 comes with a thick manual, game guide and the ingame journal has everything one needs to know. The people who are having a hard time really are the people who can't take 2 minutes to read up on the combat...you know like in the old days of cRGP's where you were thrust into Candlekeep and had to learn everything. Witcher 2 doesn't hold your hand it just let's you learn from trial and error. 

As for the combat I said before it's like Demon's Soul so if you attack you have to wait for the animation to finish it's not clunky at all. It adds to the diifculty and forces the player to either commit or run which is a perfectly viable. option in a game that is difficult.

Like Persephone, I like DA2 and Witcher 2. I know Bioware can do better that's my biggest problem with DA2. I have played DA2 on 4 complete playthroughs and now can really manage to play again because Witcher 2 did what DA2 did not do. It improved upon it's predecessor the same way Empire Strikes Back improved upon A New Hope.

Modifié par Ringo12, 23 mai 2011 - 09:30 .

[Khayness]

Zanallen wrote...

There is nothing realistic about two grown men in pajamas play fighting with sticks.

I did that for four years. I mustn't be real then.

*wanishes into thin air*

I know what are you guys talking about. He is doing a circle attack above his head while leaning back, it's one of the attacks in the chain of Group Style, if you get berserk about that, then I envy your problems.