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[WhiteKnyght]

...what do you think would or wouldn't have happened in Ferelden and the Free Marches?

Its safe to say that the Blight is the driving point of the stories in both Origins and DAII. But just how much of it would be different?

Would Howe have been able to betray the Couslands or would Bryce have kicked his sorry butt?
Would Cailan have successfully divorced Anora and married Celine or would Loghain have just stuck him with his sword?
Would Duncan have recruited the Warden of any origin?
Would anybody have been able to help Connor?
Would Morrigan have become Flemeth's new vessel?
Would anything have motivated the Hawke family to go to Kirkwall
Would Anders have gone crazy and blown up the Chantry?

[Plaintiff]

There's nothing to suggest that Cailan was ever going to marry Celine in the first place. He was considering an alliance, that is all. Marriage is not a necessity. If Anora really was barren, he likely would've eventually taken a Fereldan mistress.

Loghain's delusional paranoia would get increasingly worse until he started stabbing mattress and curtains to get the "Orlesians! Orlesians everywhere!". Then he'd run off the roof of the palace and plummet to his death becasue Andraste told himto fly to Orlais and strike Celine down with his holy power.

Howe would likely betray the Couslands in some manner, only to have the full force of Cailan's army turned on him, since they have no Blight to occupy them.

Duncan would likely recruit a warden regardless, they do continue to recruit in times of peace. Said warden would simply go to the Anderfels, instead of Ostagar.

Without Loghain's poison, Eamon would likely discover Connor's power before long and insist on turning him over to the Circle, though it would grieve him to do it.

Morrigan would likely be eventually taken over by Flemeth, yes.

Hawke would probably end his days as a farmer in Lothering and Anders would become a star attraction at the Broken Pearl.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 23 mai 2011 - 03:45 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Plaintiff wrote...

There's nothing to suggest that Cailan was ever going to marry Celine in the first place. He was considering an alliance, that is all. Marriage is not a necessity. If Anora really was barren, he likely would've eventually taken a Fereldan mistress.
.

Nothing? Gaider himself confirmed that little detail. They were going to have an extra quest in Origins to reveal it but it ended up downgraded to a codex file in Return to Ostagar and you had to bring Loghain to get the hints.

Also IMO, it was probably Cailan who couldn't get his soldiers to march to war, not Anora who was barren. xD

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 mai 2011 - 03:47 .

[Plaintiff]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's nothing to suggest that Cailan was ever going to marry Celine in the first place. He was considering an alliance, that is all. Marriage is not a necessity. If Anora really was barren, he likely would've eventually taken a Fereldan mistress.
.

Nothing? Gaider himself confirmed that little detail. They were going to have an extra quest in Origins to reveal it but it ended up downgraded to a codex file in return to Ostagar and you had to bring Loghain to get the hints.

Hints? the word marriage is never used.

Where did Gaider confirm this?

[WhiteKnyght]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's nothing to suggest that Cailan was ever going to marry Celine in the first place. He was considering an alliance, that is all. Marriage is not a necessity. If Anora really was barren, he likely would've eventually taken a Fereldan mistress.
.

Nothing? Gaider himself confirmed that little detail. They were going to have an extra quest in Origins to reveal it but it ended up downgraded to a codex file in return to Ostagar and you had to bring Loghain to get the hints.

Hints? the word marriage is never used.

Where did Gaider confirm this?

In this Q&A interview. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

As for the hints. When you open the royal arms chest with Loghain and Wynne in your party you'll get a response from him that accuses Cailan of it.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 mai 2011 - 03:49 .

[Plaintiff]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

There's nothing to suggest that Cailan was ever going to marry Celine in the first place. He was considering an alliance, that is all. Marriage is not a necessity. If Anora really was barren, he likely would've eventually taken a Fereldan mistress.
.

Nothing? Gaider himself confirmed that little detail. They were going to have an extra quest in Origins to reveal it but it ended up downgraded to a codex file in return to Ostagar and you had to bring Loghain to get the hints.

Hints? the word marriage is never used.

Where did Gaider confirm this?

In this Q&A interview. http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9386107

As for the hints. When you open the royal arms chest with Loghain and Wynne in your party you'll get a response from him that accuses Cailan of it.

Alright then, but Loghain is a paranoid and untrustworthy ****. Assuming I let him live to begin with, I wouldn't be in any rush to trust anything that came out of his mouth.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Howe probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to assassinate all the Couslands if Bryce Cousland's army hadn't marched to Ostagar to join with Calian's army against the darksapwn.

If Calian was really about to go through with marrying Celene, Loghain may have attenpted to stage a coup at the 11th hour or possibly tried to have Calian otherwise eliminated. I don't know if it would have worked without sacrificing an army to the darkspawn though. He also might not have tried to have Eamon assassinated, or if he had probably not until much later. At which point Connor might have already been discovered and become a Circle member.

Duncan probably wouldn't have bothered trying to find new recruits.

Morrigan probably wouldn't have been sent with the Wardens allowing her to discover Flemeth's plans. So unless she found out another way or Flemeth had other plans for her perhaps should have have ended up being Flemeth's vessel.

The Hawke family most probably would have remained in Lothering.

Anders probably never would have encountered Justice and therefore would probably either have just hidden from the Chantry or been captured by the Templars.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 mai 2011 - 03:58 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Yea, ironic thing. In The Stolen Throne during the first battle Arl Rendorn Guerrin was going to leave Loghain to die as a distraction when he was supposed to reinforce him.(Sound familiar) And his daughter Rowan went and saved him anyway. But Loghain couldn't find it in him to return the favor and save her son from dying. Also from what I've heard the writers based Empress Celine on Catherine the Great of Russia, which implies she was going to marry Cailan and then murder him, leaving herself as ruler of Ferelden. So Loghain's paranoia wasn't unfounded.

Back on topic.

In my opinion without the Blight pretty much nothing of DAII would have happened. Meredith would have probably found a way to invoke the Right of Annulment eventually though.

I doubt Howe would have been able to betray the Couslands, as the only way he did it was because he held his men back and had Fergus go on ahead with the bulk of Highever's army.

Ferelden would probably end up in another rebellion with Orlais after Cailan was married to and murdered by Celine. If Loghain didn't kill him in cold blood to protect Ferelden and end up being executed himself.

Duncan would have ended up in the Deep Roads doing his final battle and Alistair might have eventually replaced him as Warden-Commander.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 mai 2011 - 04:16 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Is there any reason to think Celene would have had Calian killed?

[Dave of Canada]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He also might not have tried to have Eamon assassinated

Even in Origins he wasn't trying to assassinate Eamon, simply remove him from the equation for a while.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, whatever the case was, my main point was that Connor probably wouldn't have run into the situation where he'd have been potentially so desperate as to be willing to make a deal with a demon to save his father.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 mai 2011 - 06:37 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Is there any reason to think Celene would have had Calian killed?

Empress Celine was based on Catherine the Great according to what I've heard. Catherine the Great of Russia is most famous for marrying a wealthy nobleman, then murdering him and taking all his money, land, and titles.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well, whatever the case was,
my main point was that Connor probably wouldn't have run into the
situation where he'd have been potentially so desperate as to be willing
to make a deal with a demon to save his father.

No, it still would have happened. the Redcliffe problems were unrelated to the Blight. Eamon was encouraging Cailan to divorce Anora(Codex entries from RtO) and remarry to a woman who could give him an heir. This ties in to Cailan's plans to marry Celine. And apparently Loghain became aware of Cailan's plans and wanted to neutralize Eamon as an influence so he could persuade Cailan to not do it.

So Loghain still would have poisoned Eamon and tried to convince Cailan. Isolde would freak and have Jowan imprisoned and tortured, and Connor would have gotten into his blood magic books and ended up meeting the Demon.

Although Connor would have been killed since nobody really cares to show mercy to abominations/

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 mai 2011 - 04:52 .

[Nerevar-as]

I think Loghain´s fear was that the GW were allied to Orlais and were using the Blight to take over Ferelden again. No Blight, no coup. From his reaction, I think he learns Cailan´s divorce plans and relationship? with Celene at RtO.

He would probably stage a coup once Cailan did the move however.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

No, it still would have happened. the Redcliffe problems were unrelated to the Blight. Eamon was encouraging Cailan to divorce Anora(Codex entries from RtO) and remarry to a woman who could give him an heir. This ties in to Cailan's plans to marry Celine. And apparently Loghain became aware of Cailan's plans and wanted to neutralize Eamon as an influence so he could persuade Cailan to not do it.

So Loghain still would have poisoned Eamon and tried to convince Cailan. Isolde would freak and have Jowan imprisoned and tortured, and Connor would have gotten into his blood magic books and ended up meeting the Demon.

Although Connor would have been killed since nobody really cares to show mercy to abominations/

Connor was never into blood magic books, he made a deal with a demon because he was ignorant of what a demon was (which is why he kept calling her a "bad lady" and had to be told by The Warden that she's actually a demon). Arl Eamon was only posioned because King Cailan wanted to bring Orlesian troops into Ferelden to fight the Fifth Blight, not because of the intended marriage to Celene (which he didn't know about in the current game, although I understand it was supposed to be a factor in what was originally intended). If there was no Blight, Loghain wouldn't have poisoned him, and he wasn't even aware of the plans for Cailan to marry Celene I in the current storyline sans Blight.

[Rifneno]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

He also might not have tried to have Eamon assassinated

Even in Origins he wasn't trying to assassinate Eamon, simply remove him from the equation for a while.

Impossible to be certain really.  The demon's deal with Connor was that it would save Eamon, at which point he just lapsed into a coma or something.  It could well be that Loghain's poison was to kill him but the demon really did halt its progression as per its deal with Connor.  But then, demons aren't exactly known for their honesty either, so you could be right.  *shrug*

[rak72]

If there were no blight, Duncan wouldn't have conscripted Alistair, and he would have remained a Templar.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Is there any reason to think Celene would have had Calian killed?

Empress Celine was based on Catherine the Great according to what I've heard. Catherine the Great of Russia is most famous for marrying a wealthy nobleman, then murdering him and taking all his money, land, and titles.

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well, whatever the case was,
my main point was that Connor probably wouldn't have run into the
situation where he'd have been potentially so desperate as to be willing
to make a deal with a demon to save his father.

No, it still would have happened. the Redcliffe problems were unrelated to the Blight. Eamon was encouraging Cailan to divorce Anora(Codex entries from RtO) and remarry to a woman who could give him an heir. This ties in to Cailan's plans to marry Celine. And apparently Loghain became aware of Cailan's plans and wanted to neutralize Eamon as an influence so he could persuade Cailan to not do it.

So Loghain still would have poisoned Eamon and tried to convince Cailan. Isolde would freak and have Jowan imprisoned and tortured, and Connor would have gotten into his blood magic books and ended up meeting the Demon.

Although Connor would have been killed since nobody really cares to show mercy to abominations/

Celene is supposedly a shrewd leader. She is also the one who restored diplomatic ties with Ferelden and actually began to enforce Orlais anti-slavery laws. Allistar seems to say she is one of the voices trying to maintain stability in the aftermath of the Blight. Even if Celene was so directly based on Catherine the Great she'd have wanted to have control of Ferelden through assasinaton and marriage, she'd have to know it wouldn't have gone down well. Loghain would probably have a much eaiser time rallying all of Ferelden against Celene if she'd have been the one to elliminate Calian instead of him.

As for Redcliffe, the situation there was largely caused by the exact timing of a series of events. If there was no Blight, Loghain wouldn't have had such a convienient opportunity to elliminate Calian but he probably wouldn't have needed one for a little while longer because I suspect Anora would have been able to hold on to her marriage for a little while longer. If Connor had been known to have magic, but Loghain hadn't wanted to silence Eamon yet then Jowen would have simply been captured by the templars with no rescue and therefore not been able to poison Eamon or teach Connor to hide any magic. If the series of events had played out just slightly differently Eamon would have known Connor had magic and sent him to the Circle to be trained.

In the event the demon did posses Connor and Eamon did fall ill though, with no Blight I suspect that Ferelden's army might have been able to respond more effectively.

[Finnish Dragon]

[quote]The Grey Nayr wrote...

[quote]Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Is there any reason to think Celene would have had Calian killed?[/quote]

Empress Celine was based on Catherine the Great according to what I've heard. Catherine the Great of Russia is most famous for marrying a wealthy nobleman, then murdering him and taking all his money, land, and titles.[/quote]
[/quote]

Catherine the Great was originally a German Princess who was married to the Emperor of Russia, Peter III, who was also a German Duke of Holstein. Catherine and Imperial Life Guard officers were deeply dissatisfied with Peter III and they staged a coup. Ultimately, Peter III was assassinated. As an Empress Catherine treated Russian nobility fairly because they and the Life Guard, were the key supporters of her administration.

My guess is that Celene and the Orlaisian nobility would be smart. Regarding Orlais and Ferelden my guess is that Celene and the Orlesian nobility would puppet Cailan. Orlais and Ferelden would have been ruled from the Orlesian capital. Fereldan nobility would gain lands from Orlais and Orlesian nobility would gain lands from Ferelden. In practice, it would mean that no nobleman would be able to concentrate his all of his forces to one point and to start a civil war.

Also, one key objective would be to divide Ferelden nobility. Giving lands would make some less honorable Fereldan noblemen like Howe to become followers of the Celine and Cailan. I would compare Orlais-Ferelden to the Personal Union of Castille and Aragon(Isabella and Ferdinand) in 15th century Spain. In the end, the stronger nation would become the dominating like Castille did in Spain and it would be likely that Orlais would do so as well. 

[WhiteKnyght]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

No, it still would have happened. the Redcliffe problems were unrelated to the Blight. Eamon was encouraging Cailan to divorce Anora(Codex entries from RtO) and remarry to a woman who could give him an heir. This ties in to Cailan's plans to marry Celine. And apparently Loghain became aware of Cailan's plans and wanted to neutralize Eamon as an influence so he could persuade Cailan to not do it.

So Loghain still would have poisoned Eamon and tried to convince Cailan. Isolde would freak and have Jowan imprisoned and tortured, and Connor would have gotten into his blood magic books and ended up meeting the Demon.

Although Connor would have been killed since nobody really cares to show mercy to abominations/

Connor was never into blood magic books, he made a deal with a demon because he was ignorant of what a demon was (which is why he kept calling her a "bad lady" and had to be told by The Warden that she's actually a demon). Arl Eamon was only posioned because King Cailan wanted to bring Orlesian troops into Ferelden to fight the Fifth Blight, not because of the intended marriage to Celene (which he didn't know about in the current game, although I understand it was supposed to be a factor in what was originally intended). If there was no Blight, Loghain wouldn't have poisoned him, and he wasn't even aware of the plans for Cailan to marry Celene I in the current storyline sans Blight.

Next time you play through the Redcliffe quest talk to Connor in Eamon's bedroom before you do anything(You have a chance to speak to the real Connor while he is possessed). he'll tell you that after Jowan was arrested he kept studying on his own to make his mother proud of him, and got into the books that Jowan told him to stay away from and thats when the demon appeared in his dreams. IE his books on Blood Magic/Demonology.

Contrary to popular belief, demons don't  hound mages 24/7 trying to make deals. They are sought out or drawn to the mage by something

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 23 mai 2011 - 06:43 .

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Next time you play through the Redcliffe quest talk to Connor in Eamon's bedroom before you do anything(You have a chance to speak to the real Connor while he is possessed). he'll tell you that after Jowan was arrested he kept studying on his own to make his mother proud of him, and got into the books that Jowan told him to stay away from and thats when the demon appeared in his dreams. IE his books on Blood Magic/Demonology.

In that conversation, I don't believe it's ever stated those are books on blood magic (and we know Irving took all the books on blood magic out of the library). Connor also references the Desire Demon as a "bad lady" and needs to be told by The Warden that he was dealing with a demon. As I said, Connor was ignorant about the situation.

[WhiteKnyght]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Next time you play through the Redcliffe quest talk to Connor in Eamon's bedroom before you do anything(You have a chance to speak to the real Connor while he is possessed). he'll tell you that after Jowan was arrested he kept studying on his own to make his mother proud of him, and got into the books that Jowan told him to stay away from and thats when the demon appeared in his dreams. IE his books on Blood Magic/Demonology.

In that conversation, I don't believe it's ever stated those are books on blood magic (and we know Irving took all the books on blood magic out of the library). Connor also references the Desire Demon as a "bad lady" and needs to be told by The Warden that he was dealing with a demon. As I said, Connor was ignorant about the situation.

Its implied. You forget that Jowan was free for awhile before he got caught. There was clearly enough time for him to get new books to teach Connor with. So getting a few blood magic tomes is possible. Ferelden even has an underground cult of Blood Mages(side quest in Denerim) so he could have gotten some from them. Loghain may have even supplied him.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Not unless Isolde or Teagan was going to use Connor to control Redcliffe or Eamon with blood magic. If you go into Connor's room after saving Redcliffe and pick up the quest about the Urn of Scared Ashes from Isolde and Teagan you can talk with Connor and he thanks you for saving him. There is a book on the top of his canioped bed, so Connor was reading something he shouldn't have been. It was obvious the book was being hidden.

There were bloodmages down in the Brecillian Forest too. You can kill them from a quest from the Mages Collective board.

As per the OP, I like to think that Anders wouldn't have made it to Kirkwall to blow up the chantry if the new warden commander hadn't made him give up Ser Pounce.  I always thought Pounce keep Anders grounded. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 23 mai 2011 - 07:20 .

[Sajuro]

I think everyone is missing the most important point, without the 5th blight you would never have met Dog (DA:O), the best companion ever
Sten would never have come to Ferelden
The Elves would probably be killed by the werewolves
The Dwarves would probably have fallen into Civil War
Duncan would have helped that DLC guy like he promised.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Sajuro wrote...

I think everyone is missing the most important point, without the 5th blight you would never have met Dog (DA:O), the best companion ever
Sten would never have come to Ferelden
The Elves would probably be killed by the werewolves
The Dwarves would probably have fallen into Civil War
Duncan would have helped that DLC guy like he promised.

LOL on the dog. 

Well Sten could have been looking for Isabela for all we know since the Arishok said that the relic had been stolen years before. 

I think Duncan would have recruited Alistair anyway to get him out of the chantry, especially since it's implied that Alistair could be Fiona's son.  So I can see that happening.

[Huntress]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

...what do you think would or wouldn't have happened in Ferelden and the Free Marches?

Its safe to say that the Blight is the driving point of the stories in both Origins and DAII. But just how much of it would be different?

Would Howe have been able to betray the Couslands or would Bryce have kicked his sorry butt?
Would Cailan have successfully divorced Anora and married Celine or would Loghain have just stuck him with his sword?
Would Duncan have recruited the Warden of any origin?
Would anybody have been able to help Connor?
Would Morrigan have become Flemeth's new vessel?
Would anything have motivated the Hawke family to go to Kirkwall
Would Anders have gone crazy and blown up the Chantry?

1) Yes he would have killed the family, using Antivan crows.
2)Cailan would have been assasinated by Loghain, either way he would have died.
3)Yes Duncan would have recruit a warden.
4)No, the mother would have made the same mistake all over again, Arl Emmon would have killed him or get help from mages, but the child still get possesed.
5)Yes.
6)No, they'll still be in Lothering.
7)Anders would have been killed for leaving the circle for the 8th time, Amaranthe wouldn't be a warden base because Not one from Cousland would have survive to tell the tells. The Howls keeps Highever and Amaranthe.
8) Alistair probably took Warden-commander role after Duncan left to the deep roads, He wouldn't fight over the Throne.
9) Noble dwarf would have died in the deep road, communer dwarf would have been executed.
10)Elves would have died after finding the mirror.
11)Daveth and Jory would have never meet duncan.
12) The dalish in fereldan would have died or transformed into Werewolf.
13) the keep would have been the warden base in Ferelden. The mage inside the keep probably killed or left to find a cure for the bad dreams.
14) Denerim elves still get raped by that guy,,, forgot his name rofl.
15) Cullen would have fallen in love with a mage.
16) Liliane a sister.
17)Sten would have been in patrol all over Thedas looking for a good place for the Qun to land and start/continue war.

Because every single "to be a warden dies" you would have never existed in DA.<_<

Modifié par Huntress, 23 mai 2011 - 08:33 .