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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Howe's plan wasn't to murder the Couslands just to murder them, he killed them so he'd be able to take over Highever. Merely having them assassinated wouldn't have ultimately accomplished his goals. He would have still needed to forcibly take over the Keep by force with his army.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 mai 2011 - 08:33 .

[Huntress]

Ok family ranks:

Arl Emon first house ( to get throne) Cailan dies either way so is Arl Emon.
Cousland second house ( to the throne)
Howls 3er house to (the throne)

Loghain would have killed Arl Emon after/before king Cailan was dead and Howls the Cousland.

Removing the two houses give him power to take over highever.

Oh and ban teagan already has a ban so, he would go to war with Loghain. probably killed by Loghain or howls.

Modifié par Huntress, 23 mai 2011 - 08:46 .

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

As per the OP, I like to think that Anders wouldn't have made it to Kirkwall to blow up the chantry if the new warden commander hadn't made him give up Ser Pounce.  I always thought Pounce keep Anders grounded. 

I thought it was Stroud who made him give up Ser Pounce-A-Lot, given the dialogue between Stroud and Anders when he's trying to convince him to make Hawke's sibling a Warden (and he mentions to Anders that this makes them "even").

[Riloux]

If there was no Blight, there would not be Dragon Age: Origins.

[xTemplarxCDx]

If there was no blight then the architect would have successfully awoken the old god and unleashed it upon the world, the dark spawn would be talking to each other, and they would probably follow the old god in its pursuit of taking over the world.

[Fast Jimmy]

@TemplarCD

I think that is probably the most accurate. Given the fact that the Blight happened because the Architect failed in his attempt, the only way the Blight would have not happened would have been if he had succeeded (or not tried at all... but what fun would that be?)

[Chuvvy]

Would Howe have been able to betray the Couslands or would Bryce have kicked his sorry butt?
He's opportunistic, it's unlikely that an opportunity would have popped up.
Would Cailan have successfully divorced Anora and married Celine or would Loghain have just stuck him with his sword?
He was making an alliance with Orlais, he was in bed with them, just not literally.
Would Duncan have recruited the Warden of any origin?
Possibly.
Would anybody have been able to help Connor?
The Connor situation would likely never have happened. He went to the demon to save Arl Eamon.
Would Morrigan have become Flemeth's new vessel?
Likely.
Would anything have motivated the Hawke family to go to Kirkwall.
Unknowable.
Would Anders have gone crazy and blown up the Chantry?
He'd be perfectly content to spend the rest of his years as a happy go lucking hedge mage brewing love potions for villagers.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Assuming my suspicions that Flemeth is behind pretty much everything that happened are true, then her preparations for the Fifth Blight would also never have come to pass. The first thing that comes to mind is 'saving' Maric (and Loghain) from the Dalish, so that she could have the future king promise her that he'll allow the Wardens back in Ferelden.

With Maric and everyone's favorite Teyrn to-be dead, the rebellion would probably have been crushed, making Ferelden nothing more than just another Orlesian province. Of course, one could argue that the elves would've never taken the duo prisoner if it weren't for their precious Asha'bellanar, so...

[SkittlesKat96]

 If the Blight never happened then Ferelden would probably be normal and not war ravaged...maybe Loghain would have found a way to start a civil war anyway. Loghain would probably win the civil war and be known as a hero. Maybe Orlais would try and attack again? Who knows.

I think Kirkwall would eventually have mage vs. templars, but without Hawke and his companions I think things would be a bit different, maybe there would be a more brutal war, or a slower death..it's all speculation really.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

As per the OP, I like to think that Anders wouldn't have made it to Kirkwall to blow up the chantry if the new warden commander hadn't made him give up Ser Pounce.  I always thought Pounce keep Anders grounded. 

I thought it was Stroud who made him give up Ser Pounce-A-Lot, given the dialogue between Stroud and Anders when he's trying to convince him to make Hawke's sibling a Warden (and he mentions to Anders that this makes them "even").

Yes, it was probably Stroud. In the Bethany/Carver codex it tells us they were taken to Vigil's Keep in Ferelden, so its easy to assume that Stroud is the new Warden Commander.  When you first meet Anders in his clinic he tells you point blank it was the new warden commander.  Also, when importing a character into GOA, and into WH,  Ser Pounce is in your inventory.  Did Anders send Ser Pouce with the warden?  I was really surprised that Pounce remained in my inventory and not with Anders.  It was the Warden Commander out of Origins who gives Ser Pounce to Anders in the first place.  Maybe it was Justice who really made him give up Ser Pounce?  This would make more sense to me.  In Awakenings Justice and Anders have a conversation about Ser Pounce being in Anders pack all the time.  Justice didn't like that Anders had Ser Pounce.  I always felt Ser Pounce was like a protective ward for Anders from demons.  Just like Bethany has a protective ward from her father.

I think something else was going on between Stroud and Anders than Ser Pounce.  Per the lore of the game, Grey Warden's aren't allowed to the leave the order.  This was the reason that Ser Jory is killed by Duncan at Ostagar.  Stroud really should have killed Anders when he came across him in the deep roads.  The new codex entry for Alistair in DA2 also reads he is one of the few wardens to ever leave the order and be allowed to live if he is King. 

It seemed to me that Stroud owned Anders something else.  I'm guessing Anders came clean on where our Warden actually is with Stroud and Stroud gave him copies of the deep road maps for Kirkwall.  Was Anders going to get Karl out of the chantry, then look for the warden, but Justice's influence stopped him? I find it strange some of Nathaniel Howe's dialogue in the deep roads.  Did Howe kill our warden?  You never see Howe with Stroud which I found interesting.  Why is Howe working for the First Warden and promised gold when Howe is already under the First Warden's command?  Why didn't Howe, Anders, or Oghren become the new Warden Commander at the Vigil?  Why send in a Foreigner and if Alistair is King why would Alistair allow this and not raise a stink?

My wardens will roleplay that Anders probably wouldn't allow Justice to influence him with Ser Pounce remaining with him.  This also tells me that Stroud didn't know that Ser Pounce was magical to revive party members.  This tells me that Stroud and Anders didn't like each other at first site.   Why would it matter to Stroud that Anders had a pet cat?  I'd also guess that Anders knows where our warden is at and sent Ser Pounce for our warden's protection.  The more I play DA2, I think  Stroud and company are looking for the warden.  The seekers are also looking for the warden and now Hawke. 


Would Howe have been able to betray the Couslands or would Bryce have kicked his sorry butt?

Howe took the Couslands totally by surprise so I do see this happening.  I also think Howe would have turned on Loghain and Anora and tried to take the entire kingdom.

Would Cailan have successfully divorced Anora and married Celine or would Loghain have just stuck him with his sword?

I don't think Cailan would have married Celene, I do think Celene was making the overtours in that direction.  Cailan had the option of also marrying another female noble from his country.  I think he wanted to increase trade with Orlai and this all.  Loghain would have stuck him regardless of his real reasons.

Would Duncan have recruited the Warden of any origin?

Yes, I see this happening regardless of Blight.  They needed to rebuild their membership in Ferelden after Maric allowed them back.

Would anybody have been able to help Connor?

I'm not sure on this one.  He was mage which Isolde tried to hide.  She would have hidden this fact regardless of the blight.  A demon could have influenced him over some other matter.

Would Morrigan have become Flemeth's new vessel?

Yes, this was going to happen if the lore on Flemeth is correct.

Would anything have motivated the Hawke family to go to Kirkwall

I see this happening with Templars of Lothering finding out that Bethany was a mage.

Would Anders have gone crazy and blown up the Chantry?

Anders and Justice could have meet some other way on one of Anders escape attempts from the tower.  Anders was already in Amaranthine.  Grey Wardens would have learned of the broodmother there eventually with the Architect also meddling in the area.  Since it appears he escaped to Amaranthine from "the Calling".   The wardens still had their compound in Denerim so I can see them being called to Amaranthine to investigate if they didn't have Vigil's Keep as their base.  Duncan would have found Soldiers Peak also. 

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 24 mai 2011 - 05:00 .

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Yes, it was probably Stroud. In the Bethany/Carver codex it tells us they were taken to Vigil's Keep in Ferelden, so its easy to assume that Stroud is the new Warden Commander.  When you first meet Anders in his clinic he tells you point blank it was the new warden commander.  Also, when importing a character into GOA, and into WH,  Ser Pounce is in your inventory.  Did Anders send Ser Pouce with the warden?  I was really surprised that Pounce remained in my inventory and not with Anders. 

 
I think Ser Pounce-A-Lot "stays" in your inventory. I don't bring Anders with me to the Dragonbone Wastes so I leave Ser Pounce-A-Lot in Vigil's Keep (the chest).

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

It was the Warden Commander out of Origins who gives Ser Pounce to Anders in the first place.  Maybe it was Justice who really made him give up Ser Pounce?  This would make more sense to me.  In Awakenings Justice and Anders have a conversation about Ser Pounce being in Anders pack all the time.  Justice didn't like that Anders had Ser Pounce.  I always felt Ser Pounce was like a protective ward for Anders from demons.  Just like Bethany has a protective ward from her father.

I don't know, wouldn't he simply admit it was Justice, then? He takes a pretty big leap of faith by even admitting what happened to him, and he says he never told anyone before. He confides about his relationship to Karl. I recall how Justice acted towards Anders having a cat as a pet, but given the possibility of Stroud as the new Warden-Commander, and a templar in the order to appease the templars, I don't think he's that far-off. Anders seemed to place the blame on the Wardens, who said Ser Pounce-A-Lot "made [him] soft," and I imagine that Warden was likely Stroud.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

My wardens will roleplay that Anders probably wouldn't allow Justice to influence him with Ser Pounce remaining with him.  This also tells me that Stroud didn't know that Ser Pounce was magical to revive party members.  This tells me that Stroud and Anders didn't like each other at first site.   Why would it matter to Stroud that Anders had a pet cat?  I'd also guess that Anders knows where our warden is at and sent Ser Pounce for our warden's protection.  The more I play DA2, I think  Stroud and company are looking for the warden.  The seekers are also looking for the warden and now Hawke. 

I don't think Stroud is one to bend the rules, or tolerate the idea of a Warden having a "pet" brought along. I think he doesn't like the fact that the Hero of Ferelden was so political during the Blight, which is likely what Alistair (of the Warden scenerio) was talking about when he said some were unhappy with the political involvement of The Warden during the Fifth Blight. I'd have to wonder how he'd handle stepping in for the Hero of Ferelden during the Hero's trip down the rabbit hole of an Eluvian, since he doesn't want the Wardens to be political (as he says when he refuses to get involved with the Qunari invasion). I think he'd want to get out of Amaranthine more than anything else.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@LobselVith8

I take Anders to Dragon Bone Waste for every ending in Awakening and when I import to GOA pounce is always in my inventory. Even though in WH Finn can't use him.

I think that is actually Justice speaking when we first enter Anders clinic in the game. The more I play DA2 I'm starting to see this more and more. For me this is the only reason the game makes sense with Anders and Justice. I'm also starting to see that Justice might be a demon and not the Justice we actually knew from Awakenings. It's becoming more clear to me that Justice is going to lie to get his way even in Act 1. This is shown fully in Act 3 that he lied to Hawke all along. I think Justice had more control over Anders than is first revealed in Act 1.

Also, once again why would Stroud care for a cat being around? Vigils Keep would have mice about for a cat to kill. Let me see do I want mice in my food supplies as a commander, no I don't think so, why the harm in allowing a cat around? So I don't see the problem with having a cat at the Vigil wouldn't be any different with mabari war hounds either.
 
Stroud did bend the rules when he allowed Anders to live. Per the lore Stroud should have killed Anders in the deep roads if you take Carver or Bethany because wardens are not allowed to leave the order. So Stroud did bend the rules which means that he owed Anders for something in allowing him to run away and not hunt him down. Duncan kills Ser Jory at Ostagar for this very reason. Ser Jory was going to run and not go through his joining. Duncan made it clear they couldn't turn back once recruited into the wardens. It was do the joining with the possibility of survival to survive the joining along with death as in Daveth's case or try to run and be killed. Stroud had a duty to hunt Anders down and kill him as a Warden Commander. If my wardens were still commander and Arl of Amaranthine and Anders ran I also had an duty to hunt Anders down and kill him or drag him back to Amaranthine as a Grey Warden.

This could be the reason that the warden is missing because Justice/Anders killed the warden if you went to hunt Anders down which you had a duty to do.  All I'm saying is this is a possibility.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 24 mai 2011 - 07:53 .

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

@LobselVith8

I take Anders to Dragon Bone Waste for every ending in Awakening and when I import to GOA pounce is always in my inventory. Even though in WH Finn can't use him.

I think that is actually Justice speaking when we first enter Anders clinic in the game. The more I play DA2 I'm starting to see this more and more. For me this is the only reason the game makes sense with Anders and Justice. I'm also starting to see that Justice might be a demon and not the Justice we actually knew from Awakenings. It's becoming more clear to me that Justice is going to lie to get his way even in Act 1. This is shown fully in Act 3 that he lied to Hawke all along. I think Justice had more control over Anders than is first revealed in Act 1.

Anders didn't lie all along - this is apparent from the venture in Act II regarding the "Tranquil Solution," and Anders willingness to speak to Grand Cleric Elthina to reach a compromise. Also, if Justice was really a demon, then I think Anders would be more like the typical abominations that we encounter. The fact that Justice had such a rigid view of things in Amaranthine is pretty much carried over when Anders heads to Kirkwall.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Also, once again why would Stroud care for a cat being around? Vigils keep would have mice about for a cat to kill. Let me see do I want mice in my food supplies as a commander, no I don't think so, why the harm in allowing a cat around? So I don't see the problem and Stroud did bend the rules when he allowed Anders to live. Per the lore Stroud should have killed Anders in the deep roads if you take Carver or Bethany because wardens are not allowed to leave the order.

Anders brought Ser Pounce-A-Lot with him everywhere, which is why he mentions the cat hitting a genlock on the nose once. And we know from "the lore" that this clearly doesn't apply to either Alistair (who can leave the order for the role of King or to become a wandering drunk) and the Hero of Ferelden, who can become Paragon, Teyrn, and leave the order to spend his days with Leliana (based on the Awakening Epilogue slide if The Warden romanced her). Jory was killed because he refused The Joining; Anders makes it clear the Wardens would likely force him to come back into the order.

Also, it seems that Stroud "owed" Anders, which is why he had to be persuaded to even make Hawke's sibling a Warden in the first time (and I'd assume it's either because of the cat or taking a templar into the order to appease the templars, based on the short story).

[Skilled Seeker]

DA ][ wouldn't have happened since the Deep Roads would have been packed with darkspawn as usual so the expedition would not not have happened, so the Idol that was the catalyst of the events at the end would not have been present to do it's evil work. Also Anders would never have become a Grey Warden or met Justice so he would not have blown up the chantry.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 24 mai 2011 - 08:13 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

You also have to realize in playing the game when talking with Anders who are you really talking too or who is really replying to you, Anders or Justice, because even Isabela pokes fun at Anders over this. Even Varric is starting to realize that Anders isn't right at times and joking tells him to change his line of work. Aveline also realizes it. Sebastian also warns Hawke that Anders isn't right, especially a female Hawke. A demon is going to lie to achieve their objective and according to Merrill all spirits from the fade can't be trusted.

The First Warden can decide to kill Alistair any time for leaving the wardens if he chooses to do so. Alistair as a monarch is probably the only reason that the First Warden hasn't ordered his death and he doesn't want the wardens kicked out of Ferelden again. For him being a drunk who is to say the wardens won't kill him in future installments. Alistair as monarch also mentioned assassination attempts. This could be a combination from Orlai and The First Wardens and even Anora's followers. How do we know that the First Warden didn't order the Hero Of Ferelden's Death and this is why you're missing? We don't know this. The slides at the end of the DAO, DAA, and GOA, and WH are only heresay and gossip until the next game and more lore or information is revealed. It really comes down to how do you want to roleplay it.

If you did the ritural with Morrigan you aren't susposed to be alive and the Wardens from Orlai were asking questions on how you survived at the end of DAO.

Also is that Justice or Anders making the assumation that the Chantry was going to order tranquility for all mages.  I'd say that was Justice pushing for another move against the chantry.  Justice is going to achieve his objective of freeing mages with or without Hawk's help.  The game that I just finished I refused Anders help in getting into the Chantry.  He does it anyway, and I'd say that was Justice taking more control of Anders.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 24 mai 2011 - 08:23 .

[Skilled Seeker]

btw, if you hand Anders to the Templars in DAA, how does he become a Warden and meet up with Justice?

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

btw, if you hand Anders to the Templars in DAA, how does he become a Warden and meet up with Justice?

LOL, great question.  I never turned him over to the templars so I'll guess  Anders escaped again if your warden did turn him over.  How he meet up with Justice who knows but somehow.   This is why I'm thinking the new Justice was actually a demon and not the Justice we know from Awakenings.

What I want to know... who is the dead body under the sheet in Anders Clinic? 

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Huntress wrote...

Ok family ranks:

Arl Emon first house ( to get throne) Cailan dies either way so is Arl Emon.
Cousland second house ( to the throne)
Howls 3er house to (the throne)

Loghain would have killed Arl Emon after/before king Cailan was dead and Howls the Cousland.

Removing the two houses give him power to take over highever.

Oh and ban teagan already has a ban so, he would go to war with Loghain. probably killed by Loghain or howls.

Arl Eamon isn't first house. 

Rank is as follows according to the walkthrough of DAO:

The Teyrns of Highever or Gwaren are the only ones in line for the throne if a monarch dies without issue.  Arls and Banns hold no rank for the monarchy unless there are no Teyrns.  A Teyrn would have to carry the majority of a Landsmeet vote to even be crowned.  If the monarch and even all the Teyrns are dead then Arls could be put forth they also have to carry the majority in the Landsmeet to be elected to rule.  If you don't kill Vaughn in your play then it would have come down between Arl Eamon and Arl Vaughn they couldn't be put forth unless all of the Teyrns are dead.  In the case of DAO Loghain really had the right.  Except for Alistiar being Maric's bastard son over Anora.  It should have down to Loghain and Alistair.  Not Alistair and Anora.

Loghain actually outranked his daughter over this issue even though she was Queen.  Just as Eamon reminds her she is only Cailan's widow.  Her father was actually in line being theTeyrn of Gwaren.   There has always been disagreement among players between Highever and Gwaren.  Because in some parts of the game it was mentioned that Teyrn Bryce Cousland outranked Loghain. 

[LobselVith8]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

You also have to realize in playing the game when talking with Anders who are you really talking too or who is really replying to you, Anders or Justice, because even Isabela pokes fun at Anders over this. Even Varric is starting to realize that Anders isn't right at times and joking tells him to change his line of work. Aveline also realizes it. Sebastian also warns Hawke that Anders isn't right, especially a female Hawke. A demon is going to lie to achieve their objective and according to Merrill all spirits from the fade can't be trusted.

According to Merrill, there's no difference between spirits and demons. We know from Anders the difference is fundamentally religious, since he mentions the Maker's First Child and the codex distinquishes them by virtues and sins according to Andrastian lore. Justice is a Spirit, but he has a very narrow point of view because he isn't human, and the Fade is very different than the real world. I agree that Anders is having difficulty being in a symbiotic relationship with Justice, more profoundly on the rivalry path where he admits he is having "blackouts" and Justice is literally the one who destroys the Kirkwall Chantry since Hawke can convince him not to take a violent path.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

The First Warden can decide to kill Alistair any time for leaving the wardens if he chooses to do so. Alistair as a monarch is probably the only reason that the First Warden hasn't ordered his death and he doesn't want the wardens kicked out of Ferelden again. For him being a drunk who is to say the wardens won't kill him in future installments.

Hypothetically, I suppose the First Warden could order someone killed if his toast was buttered the wrong way, but if Alistair has been living as a drunk for the past seven years, and hasn't been killed, then I don't see why the First Warden would order Anders killed, either. It's not like Alistair was difficult to locate - Bann Teegan found him, after all. I'd imagine an international organization like the Grey Wardens could easily find him and dispatch him if that was their intent.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Alistair as monarch also mentioned assassination attempts. This could be a combination from Orlai and The First Wardens and even Anora's followers. How do we know that the First Warden didn't order the Hero Of Ferelden's Death and this is why you're missing?

Why would the First Warden order the execution of someone who not only had an irrevocable impact on several societies, but managed to lead to the Wardens gaining stewardship of a valuable arling where the Commander would receive the position of Arl? The people of Ferelden can see even a mage Hero of Ferelden as blessed by the Maker, so why would the First Warden have the Hero of Ferelden murdered?

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

If you did the ritural with Morrigan you aren't susposed to be alive and the Wardens from Orlai were asking questions on how you survived at the end of DAO.

Yet we know from Mistress Woolsey that the First Warden finds Amaranthine very important, and wants the Commander of the Grey to succeed because it establishes a precedent.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Also is that Justice or Anders making the assumation that the Chantry was going to order tranquility for all mages. 

No, it was Alrik pushing for the tranquility of all mages.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I'd say that was Justice pushing for another move against the chantry.  Justice is going to achieve his objective of freeing mages with or without Hawk's help.  The game that I just finished I refused Anders help in getting into the Chantry.  He does it anyway, and I'd say that was Justice taking more control of Anders.

I'd agree that Justice is becoming more dominant. I still wonder whether Anders or Sebastian would be more beneficial to the mage movement that's taken place since the Circles rebelled against the Chantry - would the former Warden Anders possess knowledge that's invaluable to the mages, or would a newly crowned Prince of Starkhaven (the largest city-state in the Free Marches), who is on great terms with the Champion, be more beneficial if Hawke wants the mages to succeed?

[LobselVith8]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

btw, if you hand Anders to the Templars in DAA, how does he become a Warden and meet up with Justice?

The developers have said Anders joins another group of Grey Wardens instead, but never bothered to address how Anders would meet Justice if The Warden killed him at the Dragonbone Wastes over the Architect.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

In the case of DAO Loghain really had the right.  Except for Alistiar being Maric's bastard son over Anora.  It should have down to Loghain and Alistair.  Not Alistair and Anora.

Anora was the ruling Queen, which is even confirmed by the developers when people were disputing whether she was technically Queen or not; Anora had every right to be a contender for the throne.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Loghain actually outranked his daughter over this issue even though she was Queen. 

Teyrns don't outrank Kings or Queens.

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Just as Eamon reminds her she is only Cailan's widow. 

Arl Eamon doesn't say she's "only" Cailan's widow, he acknowledges that he knows she's Cailan's widow when they are discussing who should rule Ferelden. Eamon doesn't even win the argument he tries to make with Anora, and she is correct when she says she's been the one who was actually running the nation for the past five years.
 

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Her father was actually in line being theTeyrn of Gwaren.   There has always been disagreement among players between Highever and Gwaren.  Because in some parts of the game it was mentioned that Teyrn Bryce Cousland outranked Loghain. 

He didn't "outrank" Loghain, they are both Teyrns, but Bryce was popular enough that some wanted him to be King over Cailan when Maric died. It wasn't an issue because Bryce refused to even try to go for the throne, and Loghain never tries to become King - he wanted to be in a position to prevent Orlais from taking back control of Ferelden, and given what Alistair says to Hawke, that's precisely what many of them want to do.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the implication is that one way or another Justice's free spirit form finds Anders even if he's killed before or during the end of Dragon Age: Awakenings. The endings of Awakening always features Justice leaving Kirstof's body by some means or other.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 mai 2011 - 11:58 .

[Ulicus]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yea, ironic thing. In The Stolen Throne during the first battle Arl Rendorn Guerrin was going to leave Loghain to die as a distraction when he was supposed to reinforce him.(Sound familiar) And his daughter Rowan went and saved him anyway. But Loghain couldn't find it in him to return the favor and save her son from dying.

Eh? In leaving Cailan and getting his own forces out alive, Loghain was keeping the promise he made to Maric in Chapter 12, pages 261-263 of the paperback.

The Stolen Throne wrote...

"You know what I mean," Maric snapped. He looked like he was trying to hold back enraged tears. "Maker's breath! Why did you come after me? Why?"

"Don't be an idiot," Loghain scoffed. "You're the last of the royal blood."

"I don't want to hear that anymore," Maric sighed in exapseration. "This isn't about putting the blood of Calenhad on the throne. This is about getting that Orlesian bastard off it. Because if he was a good king for Ferelden, none of this would matter."

Rowan shook her head. "I think you -- "

"No," he interrupted her. "I know exactly what I'm saying." He stared hard at Loghain. "Loghain, if you hadn't come after me, you might have made a difference in that battle. At the very least, you might have gotten more fo them out alive."

Loghain did not meet Maric's stare, instead frowning into his steepled hands. He said nothing.

[snip]

Loghain continued to stare into the fire thoughtfully. "Maybe you have a point, maric, but there's no point in fighting over it now. We're not leading anything at the moment."

Maric looked over at him. "But when we are..."

Loghain glanced up at Maric, eyes intense in the fireflight. "Next time, I don't come to your rescue. You're on your own."

Something significant passed between the two of them. Rowan could see it, but she couldn't understand it. Still, Maric seemed pleased by it.

Sure, Maric probably didn't consider it would apply to his son... but Loghain was just putting into practice what Maric demanded of him. Hell, he's even staring into a fire at Ostagar when he makes his decision. Foreshadowing, much?

[Plaintiff]

Ulicus wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yea, ironic thing. In The Stolen Throne during the first battle Arl Rendorn Guerrin was going to leave Loghain to die as a distraction when he was supposed to reinforce him.(Sound familiar) And his daughter Rowan went and saved him anyway. But Loghain couldn't find it in him to return the favor and save her son from dying.

Eh? In leaving Cailan and getting his own forces out alive, Loghain was keeping the promise he made to Maric in Chapter 12, pages 261-263 of the paperback.

The Stolen Throne wrote...

"You know what I mean," Maric snapped. He looked like he was trying to hold back enraged tears. "Maker's breath! Why did you come after me? Why?"

"Don't be an idiot," Loghain scoffed. "You're the last of the royal blood."

"I don't want to hear that anymore," Maric sighed in exapseration. "This isn't about putting the blood of Calenhad on the throne. This is about getting that Orlesian bastard off it. Because if he was a good king for Ferelden, none of this would matter."

Rowan shook her head. "I think you -- "

"No," he interrupted her. "I know exactly what I'm saying." He stared hard at Loghain. "Loghain, if you hadn't come after me, you might have made a difference in that battle. At the very least, you might have gotten more fo them out alive."

Loghain did not meet Maric's stare, instead frowning into his steepled hands. He said nothing.

[snip]

Loghain continued to stare into the fire thoughtfully. "Maybe you have a point, maric, but there's no point in fighting over it now. We're not leading anything at the moment."

Maric looked over at him. "But when we are..."

Loghain glanced up at Maric, eyes intense in the fireflight. "Next time, I don't come to your rescue. You're on your own."

Something significant passed between the two of them. Rowan could see it, but she couldn't understand it. Still, Maric seemed pleased by it.

Sure, Maric probably didn't consider it would apply to his son... but Loghain was just putting into practice what Maric demanded of him. Hell, he's even staring into a fire at Ostagar when he makes his decision. Foreshadowing, much?

Maric is taking Loghain to task for abandoning a battle that he could've won. Maric's not angry at him for saving the royal line, he's angry at him because doing so cost them a victory, and even more lives.

Loghain's just betraying Maric a second time, by once again, abandoning a battle when he could've made a difference. The fact that Cailan is in the fray just makes it worse. They could've won, and Cailan could've been saved, if Loghain had stuck to the plan. But he didn't. He wasn't just betraying Maric and Cailan by leaving, he was betraying all of Ferelden by refusing to comabt the real and present danger of the Blight, in favour of an imaginary one he'd concocted in his diseased brain.

And it wasn't a snap decision either, their plan was of Loghain's own making, he wanted himself and his men out of the battle because he was always planning to betray Cailan and leave the bulk of Ferelden's forces to the darkspawn.