43 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

As some of you may know, I'm ardently, vehemently pro-mage. However, I cannot say that I hate Meredith, for a few reasons. For one thing, she's just a bad example of a whole evil system, and it's far too easy to pin all of the blame for Kirkwall's problems on her alone instead of the templars as a whole. But for another... quite frankly, she was broken by circumstance years before the present, and isn't really functional because of that.

Meredith seems to me to be more of an abusive but technically loving parent than a straight-up tyrant. She sees all mages as being inherently dangerous and worthy of tyrannical repression because of it, but she also believes that she's protecting them as well, and seems to sieze any chance she can get to be merciful and justify it to herself, which explains her strangely inconsistent actions. By Act 3, this has become truly acute, cycling between demanding brutal punishment  against Orsino to simply sulkily walking away, and then talking about how her measures break her own heart to demanding the death of all mages in the city for, well, no real reason. But then backing down from it if Hawke makes it an issue when siding with her. And then just flat-out trying to kill everyone, though at that point her sword had clearly hijacked her mind.

I believe that Meredith, in short, sees all mages as being her own sister; she loves them but also wants to keep them paralyzed and ineffectual so that they don't cause trouble... and, ultimately kill themselves. It's really quite tragic, because not only is Meredith possibly the worst person to fill the position of knight-commander, the position of knight-commander is the worst thing to happen to her; given that her whole life was shaped by trauma from failing (as she undoubtedly sees it, regardless of how much she could have actually done about it) to take care of one mage, who in Dumat's name thought it would be a good idea to give her responsibility for an entire city's worth?!
I personally believe that it was the job that broke her; her paranoia and seeming hatred of mages was really just self-loathing and fear of herself slipping, directed outward, probably because she couldn't stand to keep it all internal. I also believe that at minimum, Elthina deserves slapping with a wet trout hundreds of times for failing to notice any of this, or perhaps just never reading Meredith's file (assuming the templars keep records that well). And I really, really want to give her a hug, possibly made even more tragic by the fact that, not counting those you sleep with, she's one of the people you have the closest physical contact with; her helping you up after killing that Saarebas in Demands of the Qun. In that scene, definitely, I could connect with her and even want to work with her... but despite my sympathy for her, I could never do so. While I'm not certain that she can be held fully responsible for her actions, especially with the sword driving her, Hawke can.

[Xilizhra]

1. One difference is that Carver has a serious case of middle child syndrome, whereas Meredith seems to have been the oldest sibling. Not that I disagree with your assessment, but I suspect that had her sister survived, Meredith would have been far more liberal, even akin to Thrask.
2. Agreed, but at that point, Meredith was probably beyond hope of salvation (except maybe with spirit healing, which might at least least alleviate the effects of her sword, but I doubt it'd deal with everything else). I wish Elthina had realized that someone with that personal history was a terrible idea to give so much power to.

[Knight of Dane]

"Meredith's a looney"

[CalJones]

I wonder who did write that?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Almost all tyrants portray themselves as loving but tough parents.

But I mostly agree with the assessment as well. And I wish she had more character development that shows all this better. Because as of yet, I find it hard to care.

[CalJones]

Yes. I think I'd have found her a little more sympathetic if the story about her sister had not been confined to only highly pro-templar playthoughs. As it is, she's very much in the background until the end, which makes it hard to love or hate her.

[Ashira Shepard]

I couldn't find it in myself to be sympathetic towards Meredith as I didn't really think about, but I can see the point your making and as much as I don't want to go "f*ck, another sympathetic villain, can't they just be bat-sh!t-crazy and evil for once?" I think I'll just have to say that....

In any case, thanks for the different view point. Now I'll have to look at Meredith in game while not trying to tell Hawke to freakin' hug her. As a mage. FUUUUUUU-

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 23 mai 2011 - 04:34 .

[Xilizhra]

Eh, I never found the purely crazy/evil ones to be as interesting, myself. I'm glad that I could expand your perceptions.

[Mr.House]

Meredith loses all sympathy after Act 2 once she makes her idol sword and goes bat crap insane. I felt sorry for her before though.

[jlb524]

Mr.House wrote...

Meredith loses all sympathy after Act 2 once she makes her idol sword and goes bat crap insane. I felt sorry for her before though.

I wouldn't blame her for the 'goes bat crap insane' part, as she probably didn't foresee that happening....therefore, I can still sympathize with her.

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Meredith loses all sympathy after Act 2 once she makes her idol sword and goes bat crap insane. I felt sorry for her before though.

I wouldn't blame her for the 'goes bat crap insane' part, as she probably didn't foresee that happening....therefore, I can still sympathize with her.

It's still hard to feel sorry for her in Act 3, but I can see your point. She is a tragic character, if only Gaider had more time to go deeper into her backstory

Maybe a novel Gaider? *nudge nudge*

Modifié par Mr.House, 23 mai 2011 - 07:43 .

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

As some of you may know, I'm ardently, vehemently pro-mage. However, I cannot say that I hate Meredith, for a few reasons. For one thing, she's just a bad example of a whole evil system, and it's far too easy to pin all of the blame for Kirkwall's problems on her alone instead of the templars as a whole. But for another... quite frankly, she was broken by circumstance years before the present, and isn't really functional because of that.

snip....

Well, I myself am ardently, vehemently pro-templar.  I just find it as absurd to blame "templars as a whole" as to blame "mages as a whole" just because every friggin' mage you meet in Kirkwall, other than Hawke and Bethany (if ya don't kill her off), becomes a crazed demon-summoning, blood-magic-using abomination.  I still figure there are strong, capable and decent mages, regardless. 

So it isn't too hard, for me, to view Meredith as a bit of a mess but not reflective of any sort of whole.  Nor do I think her insanity is nothing but poor victimhood by a screwed up system.  She knew better and still bought that dang idol from Bartrand; the whole "I'm stronger than he was" is crap, imo. 

I do think there is value to your remarks on Meredith's reaction to her sister becoming possessed.  Meredith was surely obsessed with ensuring nothing similar ever happened to anyone ever again, a rule that was her core value and outright overwhelming in its sheer impossibility.  I mean, seriously.  There is always going to be mages who fail and become possessed, that's just the nature of the beast.  That's why you have Templars in the first place, right?  But trying to make such a thing real is what drove Meredith, surely to an unhealthy level.  Add to that a mind-effecting piece of junk from the Deep Roads, and you have a recipe for disaster.

But honestly I don't blame Meredith for her obsession, either.  You blame it on the "system".  I don't.  I blame it on normal human reactions to extreme trauma.  What the heck would you do, if your own sister went bat-crazy and slaughtered your entire family, seriously wounded yourself, and then went on to kill 70 more people?  How would that effect ANYONE?  In a world where that's a true and serious possibility, what else can you do?  What else would you think or feel?  Meredith was perfectly normal in her reactions, extreme though they were.  Given such circumstances, most any of us would probably act similarly.  If not worse.

I just think it's important to stop long enough to think what it means, when mages DO and CAN fall prey to demonic possession and cause such damage and devastation.  In a world like that, where someone can take your will away and have you act according to their whims ("draw your blade and move it gently across your throat...<croon>"), where someone can speak a word that causes you to burst into flames, where someone can chop you up into little pieces that somehow continue to "live" and move around -- how do you defend yourself?  As Meredith says, if you can think of something better, then do it.  But until then you have to do what you can, shrug.

There are several Templars we meet who're intent on doing good and serving towards the betterment of Kirkwall.  Disregarding them is, imo, just plain silly.  It's pitifully sad when they're so often disappointed.  Keran is kidnapped and abused by mages.  Cullen is tortured over several days or weeks by mages.  And Thrask is slaughered by mages.  It's incredible they maintain good and honorable wishes for mages.  Well, except for Thrask, cause he's DEAD.  But I greatly appreciate what Cullen says, in defense of mages, when he accepts Meredith's demand he "take responsibility for them".  He says, "Yes, I will.  I believe that's what being a Templar is all about."

I just realized I have put way way too much thought into this,

[Xilizhra]

So it isn't too hard, for me, to view Meredith as a bit of a mess but not reflective of any sort of whole. Nor do I think her insanity is nothing but poor victimhood by a screwed up system. She knew better and still bought that dang idol from Bartrand; the whole "I'm stronger than he was" is crap, imo.

Well, she only said that when she was already totally nuts; I don't think she knew what the idol was. Hawke and company took three years to find out.

But honestly I don't blame Meredith for her obsession, either. You blame it on the "system". I don't. I blame it on normal human reactions to extreme trauma. What the heck would you do, if your own sister went bat-crazy and slaughtered your entire family, seriously wounded yourself, and then went on to kill 70 more people? How would that effect ANYONE? In a world where that's a true and serious possibility, what else can you do? What else would you think or feel? Meredith was perfectly normal in her reactions, extreme though they were. Given such circumstances, most any of us would probably act similarly. If not worse.

All true. I blame the system for how it reacted to this. Instead of having a revered mother (or several) try to counsel Meredith out of her pain and obsession, the Order liked the effects of Meredith's trauma, and fostered and encouraged them as she made her way up the chain of command. She wasn't healthy when she entered, but the Order probably made her much worse, especially after she reached the top.

As Meredith says, if you can think of something better, then do it. But until then you have to do what you can, shrug.

You know, if you come to the campaign forum, we on the pro-mage end have come up with many, many better ways of doing things... not to mention those other societies that don't have Circles and yet also don't have abomination problems. But that's a different debate, and that's also why I won't reply to your last paragraph.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jlb524 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Meredith loses all sympathy after Act 2 once she makes her idol sword and goes bat crap insane. I felt sorry for her before though.

I wouldn't blame her for the 'goes bat crap insane' part, as she probably didn't foresee that happening....therefore, I can still sympathize with her.

A piece of pure concentrated lyrium that is very likely more dangerous and hallucinating than normal lyrium, and one that glows red like it's Satan's crap, and Meredith still thinks it's a good idea to weaponise it and carry it with her all the time? 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 mai 2011 - 01:09 .

[Xilizhra]

Maybe she thought that the Maker was telling her to do so, if she could hear its song early... maybe being insane is as good for hearing the voice as being a dwarf is.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I still find it hard to believe that no one around her noticed.

The entire thing is extremely idiotic. Would have been much better if it was an amulet she hid under her armor.

[Xilizhra]

The sword doesn't look that different until she activates its power, and she seems to be careful about doing that.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That's not a normal looking sword and furthermore, people and I'd suspect Templars even more so, are sensitive to lyrium.

[Xilizhra]

Most templars can't even sense mages, and the sword's song can only be easily heard by dwarves. It's also not raw, exactly.

[phyreblade74]

[quote]But honestly I don't blame Meredith for her obsession, either. You blame it on the "system". I don't. I blame it on normal human reactions to extreme trauma. What the heck would you do, if your own sister went bat-crazy and slaughtered your entire family, seriously wounded yourself, and then went on to kill 70 more people? How would that effect ANYONE? In a world where that's a true and serious possibility, what else can you do? What else would you think or feel? Meredith was perfectly normal in her reactions, extreme though they were. Given such circumstances, most any of us would probably act similarly. If not worse.[/quote]
[qoute]All true. I blame the system for how it reacted to this. Instead of having a revered mother (or several) try to counsel Meredith out of her pain and obsession, the Order liked the effects of Meredith's trauma, and fostered and encouraged them as she made her way up the chain of command. She wasn't healthy when she entered, but the Order probably made her much worse, especially after she reached the top.[/qoute]

How can you blame the system for its reaction to such an event, when the system is designed to ensure such an event never happens in the first place?  The system doesn't seem designed to be reactionary, anyway, but more preventative. 

What Meredith and her family did, actually, was to avoid the system, to deny it utterly, and in doing so demonstrated why it's so neccessary.  Had they, rather, allowed Meredith's sister to actually participate in the Circle, there likely would've been no possessed girl doomed to destroy her entire family, her sister's emotional equilibrium, and a good chunk of the neighborhood around them.  Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.

No, the Circle is designed to ensure young mages have proper guidance and teaching towards a correct use of their abilities so as to avoid demonic possession, with Templars acting as safeguards in case that fails and tranquility as an ultimate and last-stop measure if there is no other choice.  When Meredith's family denied such opportunities, they failed.  Not the system.  The system was never utilized in that scenario, in fact, and therein lies the problem, as Meredith saw it.



[quote]As Meredith says, if you can think of something better, then do it. But until then you have to do what you can, shrug.[/quote]
[qoute]You know, if you come to the campaign forum, we on the pro-mage end have come up with many, many better ways of doing things... not to mention those other societies that don't have Circles and yet also don't have abomination problems. But that's a different debate, and that's also why I won't reply to your last paragraph.[/quote]

I have a number of ideas myself.  But a complete abolition of the system and a total denouncement of the Templar Order isn't included in any of them.  However, I'll leave it there, since that's not neccessarily the point of your OP.

Modifié par phyreblade74, 24 mai 2011 - 01:39 .

[Xilizhra]

How can you blame the system for its reaction to such an event, when the system is designed to ensure such an event never happens in the first place? The system doesn't seem designed to be reactionary, anyway, but more preventative.

Because it hurt Meredith, and by extension Kirkwall, when she entered it.

What Meredith and her family did, actually, was to avoid the system, to deny it utterly, and in doing so demonstrated why it's so neccessary. Had they, rather, allowed Meredith's sister to actually participate in the Circle, there likely would've been no possessed girl doomed to destroy her entire family, her sister's emotional equilibrium, and a good chunk of the neighborhood around them. Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.

Going into the larger templar/mage issue, which isn't entirely the point of this thread. Though I see your point about this being the problem as Meredith saw it.

[SandiKay0]

I can and do blame Meredith. Mages need to have strong stable minds so they wont be tempted by demons. When you torture someone that breaks thier minds. She not only looked away she promoted from those that did it. She allowed Ser Alrik to tranqual mages. If a templar has come up with several mages under his 'care' having to be made tranqual thats abusing his power. She allowed Ser Karras to vist mages in their chambers. I wont be convinced that she didn't know about these things happening. That was during the Act 1 (after the Act of Mercy quest) where Ser Karras abused Alain. She allowed abuses and tortures long before she got the idol. She broke the minds of mages in order to prove that they were a danger and then executed them. She was a serial killer who was given her kill of choice by the grand cleric. She was in broken by what happened to her sister, but she was given the power to act on her sickness. In fact she rewarded for it.

*edited for spelling error

Modifié par SandiKay0, 24 mai 2011 - 02:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Regrettably true, for the most part.

[SandiKay0]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I still find it hard to believe that no one around her noticed.

The entire thing is extremely idiotic. Would have been much better if it was an amulet she hid under her armor.

I hope your not refering to the sword...
But you would think that at least the grand cleric could have written a letter to the Divine and asked for the rumors of abuse and torture to be investigated at the very least. Or did she figure the only ones who complained about the abuses were either mages or mage sympithizers. After an increase in complaints and the disappearing family members you'd have to think something is going funky around here and ask for someone with more knowledge and authority to come and take alook.