43 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashira Shepard]

Xilizhra wrote...

Eh, I never found the purely crazy/evil ones to be as interesting, myself. I'm glad that I could expand your perceptions.

It's not that I find purely  crazy/evil characters to be interesting or better. It's just for once I want it to be straight forward instead of me being compassionate and far too kind and wanting to help because bad crap happened to them.

Like Alma from F.E.A.R.

Insane Evil is far easier to "excuse" than Sane Evil. Reasoned but not "excused."

In any case...*takes peace-cookies to Meredith's office*

[sonoko]

SandiKay0 wrote...

I can and do blame Meredith. Mages need to have strong stable minds so they wont be tempted by demons. When you torture someone that breaks thier minds. She not only looked away she promoted from those that did it. She allowed Ser Alrik to tranqual mages. If a templar has come up with several mages under his 'care' having to be made tranqual thats abusing his power. She allowed Ser Karras to vist mages in their chambers. I wont be convinced that she didn't know about these things happening. That was during the Act 1 (after the Act of Mercy quest) where Ser Karras abused Alain. She allowed abuses and tortures long before she got the idol. She broke the minds of mages in order to prove that they were a danger and then executed them. She was a serial killer who was given her kill of choice by the grand cleric. She was in broken by what happened to her sister, but she was given the power to act on her sickness. In fact she rewarded for it.

This is exactly how I feel about Meredith too. I'm sure that if we look into childhood of any real world tyrant or mass murderer we'll find some sad stories too, but that doesn't excuse their crimes and doesn't make them more sympathetic figures. I feel bad for Meredith's sister and innocent people that got killed, but not for Meredith herself. She is directly responsible for creating of a hell which magic-gifted people had to endure for years without any hope to escape. Her actions weren't predetermined by her past, it was her consciously made choice all along.

[dragonflight288]

I hope your not refering to the sword...
But you would think that at least the grand cleric could have written a letter to the Divine and asked for the rumors of abuse and torture to be investigated at the very least. Or did she figure the only ones who complained about the abuses were either mages or mage sympithizers. After an increase in complaints and the disappearing family members you'd have to think something is going funky around here and ask for someone with more knowledge and authority to come and take alook.

I wouldn't put too much faith in Elthina doing anything about rumors or Meredith. Not without proof. She was completely content to sit back and let the maker do what he will. Unless Knight-Captain Cullen came forward with eyewitness testimony and proof of Meredith's corruption (by idol), incompetence, or blatant disregard of chantry law concerning Circles, maybe she may have done something. But so long as it was only rumors (like the ones of her killing raw recruits who weren't committed to the templar cause), then she wouldn't do anything about it.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

How can you blame the system for its reaction to such an event, when the system is designed to ensure such an event never happens in the first place? The system doesn't seem designed to be reactionary, anyway, but more preventative.

Because it hurt Meredith, and by extension Kirkwall, when she entered it.

What Meredith and her family did, actually, was to avoid the system, to deny it utterly, and in doing so demonstrated why it's so neccessary. Had they, rather, allowed Meredith's sister to actually participate in the Circle, there likely would've been no possessed girl doomed to destroy her entire family, her sister's emotional equilibrium, and a good chunk of the neighborhood around them. Unfortunately, that isn't what happened.

Going into the larger templar/mage issue, which isn't entirely the point of this thread. Though I see your point about this being the problem as Meredith saw it.

If Meredith had actually allowed the system to work, it never would've hurt her, because the events that occurred as a result of her failure to use it never would've happened.  There would've been no sister turned into an abomination, no slaughter of innocents, no dead family, no wounded Meredith.  Then Meredith would've never been so obsessed, possibly never become a Templar, and thus Kirkwall would never have been hurt by her ultimate slide into complete madness, either. 

Meredith's tale, anyway, is actually an illustration of why the system should be allowed to work by showing what happens when it's denied or refused.

[Xilizhra]

If Meredith had actually allowed the system to work, it never would've hurt her, because the events that occurred as a result of her failure to use it never would've happened. There would've been no sister turned into an abomination, no slaughter of innocents, no dead family, no wounded Meredith. Then Meredith would've never been so obsessed, possibly never become a Templar, and thus Kirkwall would never have been hurt by her ultimate slide into complete madness, either.

Meredith is a Kirkwaller. If her sister was naturally inclined to abominationhood and was shipped to the Circle there... she'd probably have been screwed far faster, and Meredith likely would have become a fervent anti-Circle activist. So, in a roundabout way, I agree that, in that case, it would have led to a better outcome. But having an actual decent teacher educate Meredith's sister at her home could very likely have avoided both outcomes.

[SandiKay0]

This is a tiny bit off topic, but it comes round I think...
It seems to me, that the usual family that has a mage born into it, who try's to protect them from the templars the mages have no training what so ever. And I think perhaps that was what Bethany and/or our mage Hawke had to their advantage. Thier father trained them himself, but it seems to me that they were far more stable being trained in a loving home than in the circle.
Here's where it comes back round to topic...
If the mage's could keep their children and teach them in the circle with them. Wouldn't it be more stable? The children in a circle feel abandoned, the templars are constantly standing at their back, the kids know that templars are there to kill them if they are possessed. It wouldn't bring a safe and secure feeling to children who want their mommies. The system that was set up it seems to me was designed to make mages fail. And those who are in power prey on that failure.
There has been much proof ,at least in our history that, bad people (I hesitate to use the term evil, but many are) gravitate to positions of power and in our past religon was power. If you use that proof and transport it to the Chantry and the templars that is exactly what you have. Bad people who are in power and using their power on powerless people. Sure mages can throw fireballs and make deals with demons. But that in itself condemns them to die. So it's circular, you try to fight back and its a death sentence. No one actually knows what that mages are subgected to, no one cares outside the circle. People like Merideth can do anything they want and get away with it becuase people want to feel safe against the mages. Becuase their religon tells them that being a mage means that they are inheriently evil. So in their minds they don't actually believe the mages are people. Kinda like the Qunari aren't people. At least that is how it seems to me.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Meredith had actually allowed the system to work, it never would've hurt her, because the events that occurred as a result of her failure to use it never would've happened. There would've been no sister turned into an abomination, no slaughter of innocents, no dead family, no wounded Meredith. Then Meredith would've never been so obsessed, possibly never become a Templar, and thus Kirkwall would never have been hurt by her ultimate slide into complete madness, either.

Meredith is a Kirkwaller. If her sister was naturally inclined to abominationhood and was shipped to the Circle there... she'd probably have been screwed far faster, and Meredith likely would have become a fervent anti-Circle activist. So, in a roundabout way, I agree that, in that case, it would have led to a better outcome. But having an actual decent teacher educate Meredith's sister at her home could very likely have avoided both outcomes.

Your argument, however, is based on the premise the system made Meredith what she is, and I'm disagreeing, inasmuch as the system was never really utilized in Meredith's case as it was intended to and thus can't be blamed for what Meredith eventually became. 

IOW, Meredith what she is because of choices she made, not because nebulous outside forces made her so.  She was in far more control of her course, than for us to sit back and say, "They made her."  There is enough "what if she'd done different" to convince me she was the ONLY one who can be "blamed" for what she is/became.

[Xilizhra]

Then there's little further to go in this discussion, it seems.

[phyreblade74]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then there's little further to go in this discussion, it seems.

As you say,

[SandiKay0]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then there's little further to go in this discussion, it seems.

As you say,

How to kill a thread in 5 words or less, lol?

[Nightdragon8]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Meredith had actually allowed the system to work, it never would've hurt her, because the events that occurred as a result of her failure to use it never would've happened. There would've been no sister turned into an abomination, no slaughter of innocents, no dead family, no wounded Meredith. Then Meredith would've never been so obsessed, possibly never become a Templar, and thus Kirkwall would never have been hurt by her ultimate slide into complete madness, either.

Meredith is a Kirkwaller. If her sister was naturally inclined to abominationhood and was shipped to the Circle there... she'd probably have been screwed far faster, and Meredith likely would have become a fervent anti-Circle activist. So, in a roundabout way, I agree that, in that case, it would have led to a better outcome. But having an actual decent teacher educate Meredith's sister at her home could very likely have avoided both outcomes.

Your argument, however, is based on the premise the system made Meredith what she is, and I'm disagreeing, inasmuch as the system was never really utilized in Meredith's case as it was intended to and thus can't be blamed for what Meredith eventually became. 

IOW, Meredith what she is because of choices she made, not because nebulous outside forces made her so.  She was in far more control of her course, than for us to sit back and say, "They made her."  There is enough "what if she'd done different" to convince me she was the ONLY one who can be "blamed" for what she is/became.

Yes because outside influcnes never change you... so getting your eyes poked out by a stick doesn't make you blind? thus change who you are.

The issues of mental influnces are very well talked about. IMO infulinces from family are teh greatest factors. Talk to any white racist in the south of the US and you will find out that there parents are raciest and there whole families where racists. So to say that outside infulices don't matter seems to be a copout. Thos useing outside influcises as a exsuse is a also a copout

[phyreblade74]

Nightdragon8 wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Meredith had actually allowed the system to work, it never would've hurt her, because the events that occurred as a result of her failure to use it never would've happened. There would've been no sister turned into an abomination, no slaughter of innocents, no dead family, no wounded Meredith. Then Meredith would've never been so obsessed, possibly never become a Templar, and thus Kirkwall would never have been hurt by her ultimate slide into complete madness, either.

Meredith is a Kirkwaller. If her sister was naturally inclined to abominationhood and was shipped to the Circle there... she'd probably have been screwed far faster, and Meredith likely would have become a fervent anti-Circle activist. So, in a roundabout way, I agree that, in that case, it would have led to a better outcome. But having an actual decent teacher educate Meredith's sister at her home could very likely have avoided both outcomes.

Your argument, however, is based on the premise the system made Meredith what she is, and I'm disagreeing, inasmuch as the system was never really utilized in Meredith's case as it was intended to and thus can't be blamed for what Meredith eventually became. 

IOW, Meredith what she is because of choices she made, not because nebulous outside forces made her so.  She was in far more control of her course, than for us to sit back and say, "They made her."  There is enough "what if she'd done different" to convince me she was the ONLY one who can be "blamed" for what she is/became.

Yes because outside influcnes never change you... so getting your eyes poked out by a stick doesn't make you blind? thus change who you are.

The issues of mental influnces are very well talked about. IMO infulinces from family are teh greatest factors. Talk to any white racist in the south of the US and you will find out that there parents are raciest and there whole families where racists. So to say that outside infulices don't matter seems to be a copout. Thos useing outside influcises as a exsuse is a also a copout

Nope, now you're making an argument and calling it mine.  IOW, you're putting words in my mouth.  Because I most certainly did NOT say "outside influences never change you".

What I said, rather, is that Meredith's failure was her own, not the system's.  She chose to keep her sister hidden and out of sight, and thus she never utilized the system as it was intended to be used.  Calling the thing a failing of the system when the system was never really used is just plain silly, to me.  That's right up there with blaming the police for not stopping a burglery of your home when no one ever made a call to 911 to inform them someone had broken into the house.  Even worse if you never locked the doors, left the windows wide open, and then turned off the alarm system.  In other words, if you don't give "the system" some sort of chance to KNOW and PREVENT a crisis from occurring, it's not the system that failed when the crisis actually does occur.

If you'd like to debate what sort of power influences have over you, by all means continue along that vein.  Just know that wasn't what I was arguing in this instance.  In fact, that's an entirely different kettle of fish. 

[DreamerM]

Even late in the game, and deeply under the bloodthirsty thrall of the idol, Meredith could always speak in ways that sounded intelligent and maybe even understandable. She never howled at the moon or chopped body parts off and ate them in view of other people. I don't know if this means she handled the Idol's madness better then Bartrand did or if whatever evil was at work was cunning enough to know that that kind of display would end all the fun right quick.

Yes, Maredith has her reasons for thinking what she's doing is right. But no one forced her to take things so far. And nothing, not even the crazy-ness idol power, excuses her gross ignorance of human psychology. It's cause and effect, self-fullfilling prophesy.... and willfull blindness to the inevitable results of the choices she's making. Mages are locked up, sedated, forbidden from seeing their own families for years at a time. Meredith has no excuse for NOT UNDERSTANDING WHY this makes the Circle so unappealing for both youngsters with magical talent AND their families. When the Circle commonly known to be worse then most maximum security prisons, then you're gonna have more apostates determined to avoid it, and more families and loved ones of those apostates willing to help them do it.

Meredith will never know how many of her problems might have just...gone away had she granted her mages some measure of freedom to walk where they willed, see their families, and exert some measure of control over their own destinies. And that was her great failure as a leader, a protector, and a person.

[David Gaider]

I find it interesting that someone would compare Meredith to a parent-- the initial character sketches for Meredith summed her up as "PTA Mom gone wrong". Apropos, I think.

[DreamerM]

David Gaider wrote...

I find it interesting that someone would compare Meredith to a parent-- the initial character sketches for Meredith summed her up as "PTA Mom gone wrong". Apropos, I think.

That is one brilliant comparison. She is kind of the ultimate, twisted hellicopter mother, the one who always has a million reasons why her kid isn't allowed to do ANYTHING. She may mean well, but best case scenario has her kid growing up cowed, afraid and poorly equipt to handle the real world. The worst case scenario means a knock-down, drag-out rebellion as the kid embraces everything Mom hates in a desperate attempt to scrape together some sort of independant identity. And Mom is shocked, shocked by this. She can't imagine how this happened, didn't she raise her child right? No, she did everything right, it's the kid's fault, this kid was just BORN bad, there's nothing she could have done, you can't blame her for this!

EDIT: And THEN, the kid, who's actual "crimes" might have been no more severe then listening to bad music and wearing lots of eyeliner, sees Mom reacting like they've commited a felony. At first they're like "it's not that big a deal" and then maybe they wonder, if Mom's gonna treat them like a monster anyway, then why not take it further? Why not live up to the reputation? Everybody loves a rebel, right?

.... I think this ran away with me. Sorry about that.

Modifié par DreamerM, 14 juin 2011 - 11:37 .

[ISI-Society]

I thought Meredith, as both an individual NPC and as one of the principle keystones of the overall story, was well written, and her role in the overall tragic plot made perfect sense. They got the level and pace of her increasing madness just right, IMO.

Kudos to the writing team on that aspect.

[Sshodan]

Well, first and formost: the "mages can do a lot of damage so they need to be locked up" argument is simply an excuse for the chantry to find a "common enemy". You don't need blood magic to control people - blackmail and drugs (like lyrium addiction) works just as well, you don't need to be abomination to be psychotic - insanity does that to all people, drugs do to, you don't need to be able to hurl fireballs to cause damage - poisonous gas and dvarven explosives work perfectly for that.
If we lock people up for what they potentially can do we'd all be in prison cells for live.
Mages have a vulnerability, but how bad it truly is? Trevinter imperium existed for thousands of years with all kind of mages running amock, and is still not overrun by abominations. Dalish elves had they keepers for even longer, and seams to be doing just fine.
Sure a magically gifted child needs guidance and education, but that is not the reason to separate them from they families completely - why not let parents visit their child and write letters? And once he or she passed her herowing why not let them return to their homes, inherent lands and titles and live their lives happily?
Mages are the bogyman that chantry uses to keep control, they are an excuse of the chantry for having an army of drug addicted fanatics on it's back and call - don't forget ALL templars are lyrium addicts, and can't live the order even if they want because the lurium windrow would destroy their minds, we so it in Origins very clearly. Does the chantry need tis many tamplars to hunt an occasional abomination? No. Do they need to take lyrium for that abomination hunt? No - Alistar is a living proof of that.
What they are needed for is for devine to threaten an exalted march every time someone disobeys her - a military tyranny of "bow to the chantly or die", that would be a bit to noticeable if there was no excuse of "having to guard circles of magai to protect the people".
Having sad that, I think that Meredith in a way is a victim of the system it self:
1. If sending a child to a circle did not mean loosing them and imprisoning them much less "apostates" would have existed, Merediths own sister would have gotten the education she needed and most likely did not become an abomination in the first place.
2. If the lyriul addiction was not involved she would likely be more stable herself and would have given up the dangerous artifact to the chantry just like a good sane templar should have done. The fact that she did not shows how little fait she actually has in a chantly law. The idol is pure lyriul, remember? Templars are not supposed to have lyrium that is not given to them by chantly decree. So it is likely that her lyrium addiction played a role in her attraction ot the idol.
3. The lyrium does not only bound Templars to the chantrly, but chantry to the templars as well - you can't dismiss the templar, to remove one for the order they would have to be dead. It is no wounder that the head of the chantlry was hesitant to deal with Meredith - it very well may have meant a death sentence for her if things did not go smoothly, since there is no option of "dishonorable discharge".
4. The well known "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing. Templars are given absolute power over mages, it is a position that is a prime set up for abuse, it's simply how a human mind works.

To summarize - I think that Meredith was a very well thought through and written character, she is a prime example of why the system should change, without pronouncing that every tamplar is corrupt - she embodies all the faults of the templars and chatry yet behind all of that there is a woman that had good intentions and probably a good heart once.

Modifié par Sshodan, 07 juillet 2011 - 01:38 .

[ISI-Society]

4. The well known "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" thing. Templars are given absolute power over mages, it is a position that is a prime set up for abuse, it's simply how a human mind works.

Just as a brief aside: I've never liked that saying, because it's a sweeping generalization that is not even close to being true for all people. It would be more correct to say that power attracts the corruptable, and to leave off the 'absolute' part altogether. History is replete with examples of people who have done many good, noble, and selfless works with power ... the problem is that they are often not even remotely as memorable in the minds of most as those who harm/abuse.

[Nightdragon8]

From what I understand the Chantry is the answer to the "Treventor" way of doing things. Where Mages have ultimate power over everyone.

Like Reigons of the past, most new ones take the opistate or as much as they can opitate to whatever they broke out of.

The Babalyonians worshiped the snake as there god, so the Jewish made it so the snake is the "Satan" or the "Evil" createre.

Christian's where told "not to bathe" because they needed to smell to keep the evil away (Granted that was more dark ages time but I think it still applies). While the Romans it was almost garented that you could have a bath as much as you can pay for. If anything the Terventor Imperiium is alot like the Roman Empire after Christianity came in.