95 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

MassStorm wrote...

I hate how Paragons want to be nice and at the same time having violent cool-looking persuasion moves.....this is utterly ridiculous of them

Sometimes people get angry. 

No one is as black and white as you seem to claim.

[Nashiktal]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aumata wrote...
 Hell the whole system annoyed me, because even with having a full intimidation or paragon score, I still couldn't convince people because of the retarded system that was in place..

What are you talking about? Are you complaining because the devs didn't let you talk anyone in the game into doing what you wanted them to?

No, he is talking about the rather silly P and R percentage system that can cause you to fail persausion scores because of a hidden, and complicated system.

[Fixers0]

As a comment in general on morality, it personally think the point of a Morality system is not to just grant dialogue advantages in certain situations but as a way to beter define and develop your character ingame and to see people react to you and your previous actions, and sure there can be advantages based on your morality but is should not only be about gaining enough points so that you can select dialigue options.

[AresXX7]

I support this.


I prefer to treat each situation individually, as I choose to do so, not based on some cumulative score that's hidden from me.

Modifié par AresXX7, 23 mai 2011 - 08:28 .

[Manic Sheep]

I support this.

The charm/ intimate system isn’t even really charm or intimidate in ME2. Sometimes the renegade options are persuasion with the renegade bent (talking to the reporter with the council dead) and sometimes the paragon options are intimidate for a paragon cause. (Harrot the Elcor Shopkeeper on omega). So its not even a matter of practice or reputation.

I don’t really understand what the point of the current system is unless their goal is actually to try and shoehorm you into either following paragon or renegade in every situation and not role-play. Perhaps it was an attempt to have a generalised consequence for actions but if that is true it doesn’t work very well. The consequences of your actions should actually be consequences of that action. Maybe you refuse to do something for someone so they don’t help you out latter. Not consequences for some ridicules point system. If it’s meant to be “reputation” then you shouldn’t be getting points for stuff nobody is going to know about and random conversations with people. Is there some galactic equivalent of twitter? TheIllusiveMan When I asked Shepard how she was feeling she said “not bad, hope you didn’t replace anything really important” Be more afraid of her in the future.

Bioware needs to stop trying to streamline everything, you don’t want needless complexity or 5 buttons where 1 would do but some are actually better if they are separate.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 23 mai 2011 - 09:49 .

[Blacklash93]

Amen.

You feel throttled in every decision you make with the current system.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 23 mai 2011 - 09:59 .

[Dave666]

Manic Sheep wrote...

I support this.

The charm/ intimate system isn’t even really charm or intimidate in ME2. Sometimes the renegade options are persuasion with the renegade bent (talking to the reporter with the council dead) and sometimes the paragon options are intimidate for a paragon cause. (Harrot the Elcor Shopkeeper on omega). So its not even a matter of practice or reputation.

I don’t really understand what the point of the current system is unless their goal is actually to try and shoehorm you into either following paragon or renegade in every situation and not role-play. Perhaps it was an attempt to have a generalised consequence for actions but if that is true it doesn’t work very well. The consequences of your actions should actually be consequences of that action. Maybe you refuse to do something for someone so they don’t help you out latter. Not consequences for some ridicules point system. If it’s meant to be “reputation” then you shouldn’t be getting points for stuff nobody is going to know about and random conversations with people. Is there some galactic equivalent of twitter? TheIllusiveMan When I asked Shepard how she was feeling she said “not bad, hope you didn’t replace anything really important” Be more afraid of her in the future.

Bioware needs to stop trying to streamline everything, you don’t want needless complexity or 5 buttons where 1 would do but some are actually better if they are separate.

I loved that twitter comment, 'cause its so true.  Time and again I hear people justifying the system in ME:2 by claiming things like 'If Shepard is known for throwing mercs out of windows then people will respond to Intimidation but not to Charm'.  This as far as I'm concerned is complete and utter BS.  Does Shepard have some sort of mental link with everyone in the galaxy so that they know everything (s)he's done?

On top of that, does everyone in the Galaxy know what Shepard looks like?  ME:2 says otherwise.  Garrus's recruitment mission when you talk to a certain mechanic, he says 'you the guys Salkie sent?'.  Not 'I know you, you're Shepard, did Salkie send you?', and if someone fairly high up in one of the three major Merc bands doesn't recognize Shepard then how is random guy #29 supposed to?  So if very few people know who Shepard is then how is his/her reputation going to make the slightest bit of difference to how well Shepard can be Intimidating or Charming?

Modifié par Dave666, 23 mai 2011 - 10:38 .

[AlanC9]

Nashiktal wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Aumata wrote...
 Hell the whole system annoyed me, because even with having a full intimidation or paragon score, I still couldn't convince people because of the retarded system that was in place..

What are you talking about? Are you complaining because the devs didn't let you talk anyone in the game into doing what you wanted them to?

No, he is talking about the rather silly P and R percentage system that can cause you to fail persausion scores because of a hidden, and complicated system.

That makes even less sense. He said he had a full score. Doesn't "full" mean 100%? Or does the system requires you to have more than 100%? If so, how can you possibly get that?

[Collider]

For ME3. please make perssuasion independant from Morality.

Most definitely.

[Dave666]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Aumata wrote...
 Hell the whole system annoyed me, because even with having a full intimidation or paragon score, I still couldn't convince people because of the retarded system that was in place..

What are you talking about? Are you complaining because the devs didn't let you talk anyone in the game into doing what you wanted them to?

No, he is talking about the rather silly P and R percentage system that can cause you to fail persausion scores because of a hidden, and complicated system.

That makes even less sense. He said he had a full score. Doesn't "full" mean 100%? Or does the system requires you to have more than 100%? If so, how can you possibly get that?

The way the system works is bizzare and stupid.  In a nutshell it works like this.

When you first visit a place, say the Citadel, the game logs every single possible Paragon or Renegade point that you could get at the Citadel and then looks at how many points that you already have and works out a percentage.  So imagine that you visited the Citadel and got a single store discount using Paragon(I won't call it Charm, cause it ain't anymore) then after getting said discount you then left and went to Omega.  At this point as far as the game is concerned, because you didn't do everything that could get you points at the Citadel you are now behind in points.  If we say that there are 10 chances to get Paragon points and you only get 1 of them then as far as the game is concerned you now only have 10% of a possible 100%.

The problem is, say that you go to Omega and there's a Paragon option and its greyed out so you can't take it, you now miss out on those points and can never get them again.  Now because you missed out on those points, for the rest of the game you're playing catch up with an invisible score, each one you miss, it compounds until you can never catch up no matter what you do.  Which means that if you choose a Renegade option for one encounter then as far as the game is concerned you've missed a Paragon option and those points are lost forever.

Modifié par Dave666, 23 mai 2011 - 10:59 .

[zvbxrpl]

I'd go with something like they had in Jade Empire--a morally neutral persuasion option in addition to the other two. You could have Charm (or, perhaps more appropriately, appeals to people's better natures) which netted you Paragon points, Intimidate (basically unchanged) which would net you Renegade points, and then pragmatic appeals to people's own self-interest/self-preservation, which would get neither.

[Turneyvore]

Agreed.

[Durgon Ironfist]

In response to this whole thread:

[Tesla17]

Yes, very very yes.

[Bluko]

Agreed, though in truth ME2 isn't any worse then ME1 despite what some people claim. Seriously it's not. Points still have to be gained through doing Renegade/Paragon things to unlock the Charm/Intimidate in ME1. Only way you can really use both Charm/Intimidate is if you start a new game with like a Level 55 Character.

Only thing ME2 does is eliminate the false pretense of choice.

If they do bring Charm/Intimidate skills back then they need to totally seperate from Paragon/Renegade points. You should be able to invest them as any other skill with no restrictions. Essentially trade off some combat potency to be a smooth talker.

Or a better option that actually makes sense:

Have Charm/Intimidate Options unlock from how many Paragon/Renegade points you earn in the Conversation at hand. Essentially if you want to "Charm" someone you have to say something nice first. If you want to "Intimidate" someone you have to something mean first. And if you choose the Neutral Responses in the Conversation you get niether Charm/Intimidate.

This is what they really should do since this how Interrupts essentially work some of the time.

I'll give an example, let's say Shepard visits on a Store on Earth before the Trial...

Shepard
1. This is a real nice store you have here. (+1 Paragon)
2. I'd like to buy something.
3. This is a ****ty store.

Clerk: Oh thank you! What can I get you today?

Shepard
1. Let me see what you have.
2. Nevermind I need to go.
3. Give me some coupons!
4. I'm going to tell everyone this store sucks!
5. What if I offered an endorsement?

Clerk: Oh that'd be great! I'll give you a 15% discount!

Shepard: I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store in Seattle.

[cachx]

I would love to play Neutro-Shep and not "lose" on big moments. Kinda like they handled sarcastic Hawke in DA2.

[Fixers0]

Bluko wrote...

Agreed, though in truth ME2 isn't any worse then ME1 despite what some people claim. Seriously it's not. Points still have to be gained through doing Renegade/Paragon things to unlock the Charm/Intimidate in ME1. Only way you can really use both Charm/Intimidate is if you start a new game with like a Level 55 Character.

Only thing ME2 does is eliminate the false pretense of choice.

If they do bring Charm/Intimidate skills back then they need to totally seperate from Paragon/Renegade points. You should be able to invest them as any other skill with no restrictions. Essentially trade off some combat potency to be a smooth talker.

Or a better option that actually makes sense:

Have Charm/Intimidate Options unlock from how many Paragon/Renegade points you earn in the Conversation at hand. Essentially if you want to "Charm" someone you have to say something nice first. If you want to "Intimidate" someone you have to something mean first. And if you choose the Neutral Responses in the Conversation you get niether Charm/Intimidate.

This is what they really should do since this how Interrupts essentially work some of the time.

I'll give an example, let's say Shepard visits on a Store on Earth before the Trial...

Shepard
1. This is a real nice store you have here. (+1 Paragon)
2. I'd like to buy something.
3. This is a ****ty store.

Clerk: Oh thank you! What can I get you today?

Shepard
1. Let me see what you have.
2. Nevermind I need to go.
3. Give me some coupons!
4. I'm going to tell everyone this store sucks!
5. What if I offered an endorsement?

Clerk: Oh that'd be great! I'll give you a 15% discount!

Shepard: I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store in Seattle.

That's a nice idea, have dialogue lines affect the whole conversation, i think a system like that could work very well if properly excuted, though personally I still prefer a totally indepent perssuasion system with the morality being moved more on the background, but with a deeper meaning too it, and  a limited though reasonable way to define your shepard's characters a bit. 

Because let's face it think that in both games the PR was flawed and unbalanced to say a least, it's was just silly that player right from the start was forced down either pad in order to have some decent dialogue options later, Neutral players, or people who just don't want to choose between the 'blue' and the 'red morality get punished for not doing so, I mean this just doesn't work.

[Dracotamer]

Agree 100%. In some situations I prefer to do renegade things based on the individual I am dealign with etc.

[Fixers0]

laecraft wrote...

Absolutely. I've been unable to play ME2 without editing it to max out both bars. The system cries for a change. Not sure what kind of change...maybe allow us to choose between solving confrontations with words and solving them with violence. If you practice the former, with sufficient practice you can end the fight before it even begins, subduing your opponent verbally - with an awesome kind of speech. And if you practice the latter, you can perform some spectacular battle interrupts, destroying your opponent before they can even fire a shot.

I still think we need a separate loyalty bar, maybe the polar opposites paths for pro-human and pro-aliens, or something else entirely, and for the game to reflect your choices by giving you political support from opposing factions.

Either would add replay value, I think. The point is, both paths should be equally satisfactory if pursued, and both paths should give you immense advantage if maxed out. Being Paragon - Renegade doesn't really work this way. I always prefer certain dialogue choices, which have nothing to do with morality systems, and I don't want to chose other options on the replay. So I never end up with more than a half bar on either side.

Yeah, adding some dynamic values would really add a lot more depth to the game, especially if they have they have a real effect on how the story  progresses, this would add a lot of replay value.
But unfortuantly i think that anything dynamic or things, or any decision of real weight that could impact the plot will be to complicated for the type of audiance bioware is aiming for.

[Guitar-Hero]

I concur

[RunicDragons]

It would be awesome to take a 'comedian route' like in DA 2... But yes I agree with this thread.

[blind black]

i totally agree. i cant pick the options that i want to pick because i want to unlock higher dialogue choices.

[Zall]

Yup.

[AlanC9]

Dave666 wrote...

The way the system works is bizzare and stupid.  In a nutshell it works like this.

When you first visit a place, say the Citadel, the game logs every single possible Paragon or Renegade point that you could get at the Citadel and then looks at how many points that you already have and works out a percentage.  So imagine that you visited the Citadel and got a single store discount using Paragon(I won't call it Charm, cause it ain't anymore) then after getting said discount you then left and went to Omega.  At this point as far as the game is concerned, because you didn't do everything that could get you points at the Citadel you are now behind in points.  If we say that there are 10 chances to get Paragon points and you only get 1 of them then as far as the game is concerned you now only have 10% of a possible 100%.

The problem is, say that you go to Omega and there's a Paragon option and its greyed out so you can't take it, you now miss out on those points and can never get them again.  Now because you missed out on those points, for the rest of the game you're playing catch up with an invisible score, each one you miss, it compounds until you can never catch up no matter what you do.  Which means that if you choose a Renegade option for one encounter then as far as the game is concerned you've missed a Paragon option and those points are lost forever.

Really? Wow.

But then how come when I don't play a full Paragon I can still pass most of the checks in the game? (Paragon, specifically, since I never play very Renegade characters) This really doesn't fit my experience with the game -- unless I'm simply wrong about how I played those characters, which I guess is possible.