95 réponses à ce sujet

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think the conversation and the points should be awarded on the conversation flow most conversations in the ME world are statements or facts and are neutral in nature so choosing neutral would work well.

For instance Mordin is telling you of his love for poetry there is no need to praise him nor admonish him for this a simple OK that's nice would be the best option here so you'd get points for both para and ren if you choose this and you'd get say 5 pts added to both sides but if you choose para or ren here you get 2pts added to whichever side you chose sense its out of context with the situation.

Now say you've got a hostage obviously its a more pressing matter a firmer stance is needed so choosing para gets +6 ren +6 neutral + 2 to both sides.

If it's a moral grey or shep really isn't qualified to make this decision like we got with the Rachni Queen judgment or Legions loyalty judgment choosing any option of para, ren, neutral adds even +3 points to their spots sense shep isn't qualified to make those decisions w/o proper council and sense BW never lets us get council from say Tali on the subject of Legions rewriting the geth or Wrex if we let her live we can't see future trends we can only guess helping both these people may or maynot do something down the road.

Now of course all my +# are totally based off of nothing they're examples of giving higher rewards to in conversation flow dialogue choices then giving it to out of flow ones all players get some degree of point value and can always use their rewarded points in game to increase their para/ren alignment faster if they feel it is not growing quick enough for them naturally.

We should also get more then 1 pt in our upgrades I'm so tired of saving up my points just to get 6 so I can actually make a dent in my own upgrades can we get like 3 at a time point allocation or something?

[xentar]

AlanC9 wrote...

Really? Wow.

But then how come when I don't play a full Paragon I can still pass most of the checks in the game? (Paragon, specifically, since I never play very Renegade characters) This really doesn't fit my experience with the game -- unless I'm simply wrong about how I played those characters, which I guess is possible.

Import bonus, possibly.

[Ahglock]

AlanC9 wrote...


Really? Wow.

But then how come when I don't play a full Paragon I can still pass most of the checks in the game? (Paragon, specifically, since I never play very Renegade characters) This really doesn't fit my experience with the game -- unless I'm simply wrong about how I played those characters, which I guess is possible.

You start with a fairly big buffer if you are plaiyng with a ME1 import.  Like 100+points and given than most paragon choices outside of big ones are 5 point boosts and you are usually safe for a while.  You have to be semi-consistentenly nuetral to have a effect ourside of 2 or 3 big choices.  Those 2 or 3 choices though require you to be fairly consistent throughout the entire game.  

[AlanC9]

Ahglock wrote...

You start with a fairly big buffer if you are plaiyng with a ME1 import.  Like 100+points and given than most paragon choices outside of big ones are 5 point boosts and you are usually safe for a while.  You have to be semi-consistentenly nuetral to have a effect ourside of 2 or 3 big choices.  Those 2 or 3 choices though require you to be fairly consistent throughout the entire game.  

Ah, that makes sense. It's never occurred to me to play an ME2 game without an import.

[ScepticMatt]

I agree, I always hated to metagaming aspect ('pargon points')

[st6212]

I support this. Either this or remove the system altogether.

[Bluko]

Fixers0 wrote...

That's a nice idea, have dialogue lines affect the whole conversation, i think a system like that could work very well if properly excuted, though personally I still prefer a totally indepent perssuasion system with the morality being moved more on the background, but with a deeper meaning too it, and  a limited though reasonable way to define your shepard's characters a bit. 

Because let's face it think that in both games the PR was flawed and unbalanced to say a least, it's was just silly that player right from the start was forced down either pad in order to have some decent dialogue options later, Neutral players, or people who just don't want to choose between the 'blue' and the 'red morality get punished for not doing so, I mean this just doesn't work.

The only down side to having it being skill system is that you can essentially do this in the same situation with say a high enough level "Intimidate". 

Shepard
1. This is a real nice store you have here. (+1 Paragon)
2. I'd like to buy something.
3. This is a ****ty store. 

Clerk: Oh thank you! What can I get you today?

Shepard
1. Let me see what you have.
2. Nevermind I need to go.
3. Give me some coupons!
4. I'm going to tell everyone this store sucks!
5. What if I offered an endorsement?

Clerk:"Oh please don't do that! Here I'll give you a 15% discount!"


See what I'm getting at? Really the Clerk should respond to that like...

Clerk:"Huh? I thought you just said you liked the store? Are you feeling alright sir?"

And hence why I think the Devs avoided the Charm/Intimidate Skills so you can't go from one extreme to the other like this in a nonsense manner in a conversation.

[Fixers0]

Bluko wrote...

The only down side to having it being skill system is that you can essentially do this in the same situation with say a high enough level "Intimidate". 

Shepard
1. This is a real nice store you have here. (+1 Paragon)
2. I'd like to buy something.
3. This is a ****ty store. 

Clerk: Oh thank you! What can I get you today?

Shepard
1. Let me see what you have.
2. Nevermind I need to go.
3. Give me some coupons!
4. I'm going to tell everyone this store sucks!
5. What if I offered an endorsement?

Clerk:"Oh please don't do that! Here I'll give you a 15% discount!"


See what I'm getting at? Really the Clerk should respond to that like...

Clerk:"Huh? I thought you just said you liked the store? Are you feeling alright sir?"

And hence why I think the Devs avoided the Charm/Intimidate Skills so you can't go from one extreme to the other like this in a nonsense manner in a conversation.

Well, thats also a problem with the existing version, you can be reall jerk at first, and then start playing a nice guy and they don't react to, by making a skill that is independant from morality that reflects the players ability to convince other people, there is not a 'charm' or 'intimidate' option., Morality can impact what you say, but not if you can say it.

I still however like the idea of having your initial response impact what kind of dialogue options you later have available, it think would be alongside a perssuasion skill.

[MrFob]

I say they should get back to a system, similar to what ME1 had.
Make charm/intimidate skill based but not restricted by paragon renegade decisions. Every character should be able to get both to max no matter their alignment. If you fill your paragon/renegade-meter, you should get bonus points in the associated talents every now and then. That way, the system would not restrict players but still reward those who are very paragon/renegade.

EDIT: As far as consistency of personality is concerned, I don't see the problem. It's the responsibility of the player to rp a consistent character. If the player wants to be an erratic personality border-lining on schizophrenia, well so be it. The responses changing according to previous dialogue options would be cool in that regard but I don't see it happening, considering the amount of VO work/space it would require.

Modifié par MrFob, 25 mai 2011 - 06:16 .

[Fixers0]

MrFob wrote...

I say they should get back to a system, similar to what ME1 had.
Make charm/intimidate skill based but not restricted by paragon renegade decisions. Every character should be able to get both to max no matter their alignment. If you fill your paragon/renegade-meter, you should get bonus points in the associated talents every now and then. That way, the system would not restrict players but still reward those who are very paragon/renegade.

EDIT: As far as consistency of personality is concerned, I don't see the problem. It's the responsibility of the player to rp a consistent character. If the player wants to be an erratic personality border-lining on schizophrenia, well so be it. The responses changing according to previous dialogue options would be cool in that regard but I don't see it happening, considering the amount of VO work/space it would require.

The old charm/intimate system wasn't much better, well we had a skill we could grew level up in, it was still too much related too our morality and the amount of 'blue' and 'red' points you had collected, my idea is to make a perssuasion skill totaly independent from the players morality that represents Shepard social skill and ability to interact with other characters.

[Dangerfoot]

I don't really think that Mass Effect is a game that needs a persuade system. I'd rather have more customizable decision-making than a persuade talent tree to waste points on.

[gosimmons]

Agreed, I've said it before,the world isn't black and white.
It can hurt roleplaying aspects if I have to be consistently paragon on every issue. I can play a kind character who tries to save lives, that doesn't mean I can't have renegade views towards something morally gray like the Genophage, or how to deal with certain enemies.
So you may be punished in the long run because you see different situations require different solutions.

It's like Yahtzee's review said.
"When you're choosing to free a race of slaves or force them to dance about while you take photographs, you're not thinking "what would I do in this situation?" You're thinking, "which option gives me the most d*ck points because I need them to persuade Crewman A to take her top off."

In the next game I hope that influencing people is affected more by past decisions and relationships, rather than Paragon/Renegade scores.

Modifié par gosimmons, 25 mai 2011 - 06:43 .

[mi55ter]

Dude, you are just so totally right with this thread, that way you can explore dialogue options as you wish without being punished. I mean, c'mon, some guy opens a cell door, tells you to go inside or else, and you CAN'T tell him to go to hell for fear of taking a few hits to your spotless paragon? C'mon.

[MrFob]

Fixers0 wrote...

MrFob wrote...

I say they should get back to a system, similar to what ME1 had.
Make charm/intimidate skill based but not restricted by paragon renegade decisions. Every character should be able to get both to max no matter their alignment. If you fill your paragon/renegade-meter, you should get bonus points in the associated talents every now and then. That way, the system would not restrict players but still reward those who are very paragon/renegade.

EDIT: As far as consistency of personality is concerned, I don't see the problem. It's the responsibility of the player to rp a consistent character. If the player wants to be an erratic personality border-lining on schizophrenia, well so be it. The responses changing according to previous dialogue options would be cool in that regard but I don't see it happening, considering the amount of VO work/space it would require.

The old charm/intimate system wasn't much better, well we had a skill we could grew level up in, it was still too much related too our morality and the amount of 'blue' and 'red' points you had collected, my idea is to make a perssuasion skill totaly independent from the players morality that represents Shepard social skill and ability to interact with other characters.

That is what I suggested. When I said "not restricted" that means, you can max it out, no mater what.
What I would keep is the fact that you get a free point when you max out your paragon/renegade bar (or maybe one at 33%, one at 66% and one at 100%). It makes sense because Sheps reputation as paragon/renegade might make it easier for him to charm/intimidate people respectively. However, all you gain is the ability to have these three points saved and available for other skills. Nothing should prevent you from skilling charm/intimidate up all the way if you wish to invest the points.

[Sith_exar_kun]

Agreed.

[Dangerfoot]

My brother just started playing ME2 (we don't own ME1) and I didn't have the heart to tell him that you absolutely have to Metagame if you want to accomplish anything ever. So now because he's made a few choices that are renegade, he is unable to get Morinth. He keeps going to do other missions to get more paragon points and has refrained from trying to RP in a game that claims to be an RPG, however he still doesn't have enough paragon to resist Morinth and thus allow her to join his team.

Yeah, great system.

[Kaylord]

/signed

I disabled thhe ME2 system by adding 1000 paragon/renegade points with gibbeths save game editor. Problem solved, no waste of skill points needed, and that way you can even choose who your scars should look... 

Modifié par Kaylord, 26 mai 2011 - 07:55 .

[JBONE27]

Tony77A wrote...

I couldn't agree more.
I hate how the persuasions were handeled in ME2

I want presuasion/intimidate skills back!
Roll them into one skill and (maybe) make your morality decide what option is open.

 This is the best idea on this thread.  I means you're not completely independant from P/R, but makes it not completely dependant on it.

[stonbw1]

You guys have good ideas. I just want to recognize some effect to the way I act, which makes logical sense. If I'm an jackass to everyone, it makes sense that characters I interact with in the future recognize such and vice versa. At the very least, dialogue differences and maybe side missions (i.e. a gang leader would present himself to you for a mission if you were a renegade, but you'd never get that encounter if you were a paragon. Instead, you may get a charitable rescue mission.)