514 réponses à ce sujet

[Chromie]

Maverick827 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Well what's more important, controlling what the character looks like, or controlling what happens in the story, and having the game shape on your decisions.

I'll take the third option: controlling who your character is, and what he or she believes, values, and cares about.

Well that game is not DA2.

[Aaleel]

Ringo12 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Well what's more important, controlling what the character looks like, or controlling what happens in the story, and having the game shape on your decisions.

I'll take the third option: controlling who your character is, and what he or she believes, values, and cares about.

Well that game is not DA2.

Well you can decide those things in both games.  Just that you get to act on those things in TW2,  Whereas in DA2 the game turns into the Rock and yells "I doesn't matter what you think", and things go the same way anyway,

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ringo12 wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Well what's more important, controlling what the character looks like, or controlling what happens in the story, and having the game shape on your decisions.

I'll take the third option: controlling who your character is, and what he or she believes, values, and cares about.

Well that game is not DA2.

To be fair, it is. You do have flexibility in determining what Hawke believes in and what he cares about (though naturally not complete flexibility).

Question is however how relevent are Hawke's beliefs, values and what he cares about in the story?
I'd say they are virtually inconsequential.

I may have appreciated the flexibility seeing how I do like the freedom Origins provide and I like to RP, even if it is ultimately illusionary. But quite frankly, I don't like to RP 2 time gaps of 3 years each, aka most of the time period we are talking about.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 03 juin 2011 - 01:55 .

[HTTP 404]

nm...  sigh.  the grass is always greener...

Modifié par HTTP 404, 03 juin 2011 - 02:03 .

[TaHol]

@Lumikki:

You might or might not know this, but Geralt of Rivia is a book character created by certain Polish novelist Andrzej Sapkowski. That writer has already told to every reader what kind of character Geralt is, who he knows and in what kind of world he lives. It is given you can't change his appearance or gender or profession. Geralt is licenced. I'm sure Sapkowski had some word in what they would do with HIS character, others he wouldn't let them use him.

Modifié par TaHol, 03 juin 2011 - 05:56 .

[Lumikki]

Yes, I know TW is based in the book, but how much game follows the book was game developers decission. They did not have to use main character of the book, same way that ME books main character is not Shepard. Books are linear and reader can't change anything in them. Games strenght is in flexibility to allow player to change something. To reduse players choises in game isn't good thing. DA2 did it in story choises and TW in pre-define character.

My issue with TW is my issue, like I have issues with DA2. I don't expect any game to be perfect. My point has been both TW and DA2 has issues. Good RPG allow players to do both, to customize player characters so that players can like to play that character and have story where player can have impact in the world with choises player does.

Some of you people say one game is better than one, but that's personal taste as what's more important to player. That doesn't change the issue that both games did not do well in ALL aspects of RPG. You can lie you self that it wasn't issue, but all aspect what where not well done can be issue for someone. People have habit to ignore issues in stuff they like while notice even smallest issues in stuff they don't like. That's basic human nature.

Examples:

Player A: Is fine with pre-define Geralt and loves how his decissions matters in the characters story.

Player B: Loves how player can shape they Hawke anyway they like and is fine with story.

Now change A and B players place and they both can have issues in other game. Point here is that, if both RPG aspect  would have been well done in both games, both A and B player would have been happy in both games.

Think about it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 juin 2011 - 10:53 .

[Dariuszp]

Yeah. They could just drop it (and they did, at first they plan to use witcher that is created by you) but then would waste all things that Sapkowski build. Interesting characters, locations and story. And character that is mature, deep and well known.
Sorry but i personaly think that they make best choice ever and they create Gerald exacly how they should.

Sorry but i dont see issue where you see it. What i recive is well known character in well known story, with well known history that is places in well known world.
And they made it good. And story and mechanics is like i NEVER seen it in any Bioware or other RPG game. No more stupid chocies, no more "hero or killer". No more insignificant chocies with no consequences. No more stupid and childlish worlds where everyone are bad or good. It's not even gray as some poeple say. Game is full of everything.
And the plot. Dam. First Witcher was well made. Second is also very good.

{SPOILER!!!} I played something about 50h and love it all. My story cross offten with kid called Alvin. They Gerald choose Shani and try to rise the boy. Boy had magic power (just like Ciri in books - ancient elven blood probably). And then when in danger, boy just teleport in time and space.
Before that boy follow you offten and ask question about people, morality and stuff. He get answers from you. He saw your actions and stuff. And then you got epilog.
You fight with Grand Master of the Order of the Rose. It seems we dont want you dead. That he know you a little. While talking, he throw at you same arguments you say to him. It was big. It was great. It was well made. I didn't even realize it at first. And i love it. At the end you realize that all what happened was because of the Alvin.
Kid that wen back in time to save the world. And you killed him using silver sword - sword for monsters. It was never spoken (that he is Alvin) but grand master of the order say same arguments that you sayed to boy. He got necklace you gave him etc.
Best endgame ever.{/SPOILERS END!!!}

Sorry but i will trade ability to change hair colour or something just to get something so good. Good RPG is GOOD rpg. And ability to add boobs to someone dosent change that. If they provide me with some random Witcher and dont allow me to change him - then i could be mad. But when they give me Gerald - hell no.
I will ask you this. If BW made another SW game when you take role of the Darth Vader - could you add boobs to him ? NO. Because it's ICON of Star Wars. So is Gerald for Witcher series. And it could be still bloody good RPG. Story, choices and mechanics make good RPG. Not boobs.
We dont ignore things. We just dont see them.

Player A: recive deep character with story and great RPG with chocies and consequences. With great quests. All in great graphic.

Player B: recive hollow character who can have boobs with ****ty story for kids where nothing have real consequences, where chocies have almost no impact on the game. All in bad graphic, terrible textures and reused locations. And quests about "killing 10 spiders (actual quest from the game)".

Sorry but i own both games and i got issue with B but i never complain about A. So it seams that I'm the person who was switched from B to A. It's not because developer of the Witcher are from my country or something. Not because i'm trolling. I love and own every BioWare game (love except DA II). I know their every game. So i know Witcher saga and Gerald. And sorry but Witcher is bloody good RPG that cannot be even compared to DA II in any aspect.

Modifié par Dariuszp, 03 juin 2011 - 11:29 .

[Lumikki]

@Dariuszp

You seem to miss my point. You are player A. Your "problem" is that you expect everyone else to be like you. Different players can have different values and priorities, what cause different kind of issues in games.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 juin 2011 - 12:24 .

[Dariuszp]

Sorry but no. I dont care if character is pre-defined (Gothic, Witcher etc) or custom made (Fallout, DA etc).

[Lumikki]

Dariuszp wrote...

Sorry but no. I dont care if character is pre-defined (Gothic, Witcher etc) or custom made (Fallout, DA etc).

That was my point, some other people can care.

There is nothing wrong to defend and tell what you like, but not been able to accept that other people may have different perspective in they liking, is not so good. Meaning some people can value a lot some feature what you self don't value much.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 juin 2011 - 12:55 .

[Sutekh]

Dariuszp wrote...

Player A: recive deep character with story and great RPG with chocies and consequences. With great quests. All in great graphic.

Player B: recive hollow character who can have boobs with ****ty story for kids where nothing have real consequences, where chocies have almost no impact on the game. All in bad graphic, terrible textures and reused locations. And quests about "killing 10 spiders (actual quest from the game)".

Sorry but i own both games and i got issue with B but i never complain about A. So it seams that I'm the person who was switched from B to A. It's not because developer of the Witcher are from my country or something. Not because i'm trolling. I love and own every BioWare game (love except DA II). I know their every game. So i know Witcher saga and Gerald. And sorry but Witcher is bloody good RPG that cannot be even compared to DA II in any aspect.

Well, the question isn't what game is best in term of plot/quests or RPG value (or graphism), but which character [general] you relate to the most between Hawke and Geralt.

I'm currently playing The Witcher, and I'm sorry to say I don't relate to him at all, to the point I have big immersion problems. It's not a matter of appearance, or gender or anything, really, just that the character is too predefined, and this predefinition is too far from what I can relate to, or roleplay, for me to feel anything about him.

Or maybe it is the voice over acting? Having each line I choose repeated in that flat, emotionless Tranquil tone just doesn't do it for me.

I'm not very far in the game (Chapter III), and maybe it will get better? And even better in TW2? But, so far, as crucial the choices he makes seem to be for the future, I don't care, because he, Geralt, doesn't seem to care either. The way I feel him, he's very hollow, with no real relationship with anyone, or opinion on anything. And don't get me started on the shallowness of the sex cards, which are the lamest things I've ever seen in a game (well, maybe not the 'lamest', but still...), and very immersion-breaking.

Hawke, on the other hand, has three personalities I can choose to play, has a decent voice acting, has great "moments" and deep relationships (frienship and romance), even though they could have been executed in better ways. It's not a matter of plots and quests, but more a matter of the experience I have when playing. Nothing to do with gender either, btw. I'm a woman who mostly play men, even back when I played table top RPGs (fixed sexual orientation, on the other hand, is a problem, but a very small one.)

I care about Hawke, I cared even more about my Wardens. I don't care about Geralt, so far. He's someone else's character in someone else's story.

This said, all you cited in your "player B" section, makes me wonder whether we've played the same game (DA2), or whether you're just being biased and difficult. Because "story for kids"? "Bad graphics"? Seriously? And I don't remember a quest about killing 10 spiders, but my memory sometimes fails me, so I'll take your word on that. This said... Witcher contracts .

[Cutlass Jack]

Sutekh wrote...

I'm currently playing The Witcher, and I'm sorry to say I don't relate to him at all, to the point I have big immersion problems. It's not a matter of appearance, or gender or anything, really, just that the character is too predefined, and this predefinition is too far from what I can relate to, or roleplay, for me to feel anything about him.

That's my main problem with the Witcher as well. If a game has a predefined character, the only way I'll enjoy it is if the character is so close to someone I'd create anyway that any differences would be minor. A great recent example would be Ezio from Assassin's Creed 2.

But if I can create my character it stirs my creative nature and forms an instant connection to the story. I care about this character simply because he's mine. But its not always a slam dunk. An example of a game with incredible character generation, and no connection to the story is White Knight Chronicles. Where the character you so lovingly designed is the mute sidekick of the actual main character. Such a waste.

(Which is not saying Witcher is bad or wrong or anything like that. Clearly not the case. Just that it fails to push my buttons.)

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 03 juin 2011 - 01:21 .

[Sutekh]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
(Which is not saying Witcher is bad or wrong or anything like that. Clearly not the case. Just that it fails to push my buttons.)

Exactly!

Also, I still enjoy the plot a lot (among other things), which is why I'll keep playing and will play TW2 too. But the central character? Not so much.

(I also wonder why is it that if you enjoy one game you're supposed to hate the other in so many posts here. But that's another debate altogether).

[Dariuszp]

Well i can agree on that one. Must admit that i got different experience with Witcher because I'm bookworm :-) I start reading about Gerald back in 1995 if i remember. It's what... 16 years already ?
I know almost everything about Gerald and about world of the Witchers.

So what can I say. When they said, that they will make game about Gerald I was happy. When they say he will be main character - i was really happy. When i saw the game - WOW :-D
But still i didn't mind to play Gothic series with pre-defined actor with voice. And few other games. And i like character customization but not when there is good well known character in it. Gerald is Gerald right ?
And about voice acting in English version - yeah, it is ****ty. Dont know who did voice acting but it was bad. Oryginal version is much better. Just like i prefer english voices in english games.

Still i think that createing character is good but i cat take pre-defined one if it is good. Simple as that.RPG are about characters but also they are about world around. World you shape with your action.

@Sutekh, about that part when you say that Gerald have no real connections with anyone. It's half of real truth. Gerald always want to do things alone. He think that he should take everything on him. He still got friends (Zoltan, Jaskier etc) who care for him. But he prefer to by lone wolf. It's part of his character.

[Dreadstruck]

Darius, not to be a lore cop or something but since you are a Witcher bookworm like me you should know his name is spelled Geralt.

Modifié par Avalla'ch, 03 juin 2011 - 03:52 .

[Sutekh]

Dariuszp wrote...

Well i can agree on that one. Must admit that i got different experience with Witcher because I'm bookworm :-) I start reading about Gerald back in 1995 if i remember. It's what... 16 years already ?
I know almost everything about Gerald and about world of the Witchers.

And here lies the "bias" problem I was talking about. You can't have the same view than the average gamer who hasn't read the book, if only because your knowledge of Geralt is way more deeper than anything a game can throw at you. You were a fan of Geralt before the game came out, and it changes everything.

I'm an absolute fangirl of Moorco ck's Elric of Melniboné (another White Wolf, he ), and I know I would be forgiving a lot to a game based on his stories, and I'd be relating a lot to the central character, because I "know" him so well already.

The fact you're Polish and have the original version of the game is also a BIG factor here. I don't know whether you've ever tried the English version, but the dialogs feel disjointed at times, and not always "understandable", and it is yet another immersion breaking thing. Maybe I'll try the French version and see if it's better (but I really really doubt it).

@Sutekh, about that part when you say that Gerald have no real connections with anyone. It's half of real truth. Gerald always want to do things alone. He think that he should take everything on him. He still got friends (Zoltan, Jaskier etc) who care for him. But he prefer to by lone wolf. It's part of his character.

No, no. I understand that. The lone wolf part is fine with me. Even the womanizer part is fine; it is the character as written, and I'm okay with playing along with that. But the rendition in the game, so far, makes it a hollow, unfocused character whose real goal I've yet to understand (apart from recovering his memories, that is, and the Salamandra thing, and even then, he doesn't seem really motivated).

Funny thing is, it's exactly the same flaws anti-Hawk people usually list when speaking of characterization. But since DA2 gives me the possibility to customize his appearance and, much more importantly, his personality, I can add my own twist and flavors in him and make him mine, and the whole gaming experience is magically changed then.

We're not supposed to have read the books to enjoy the game's characters. The DA franchise does, in my opinion, a very good job at setting the world and its characters on their own. It sucks you in immediately. The Witcher ones, so far, not really.

Modifié par Sutekh, 03 juin 2011 - 03:23 .

[Chromie]

Sutekh wrote...

And here lies the "bias" problem I was talking about. You can't have the same view than the average gamer who hasn't read the book, if only because your knowledge of Geralt is way more deeper than anything a game can throw at you. You were a fan of Geralt before the game came out, and it changes everything.

I haven't read the books yet so I don't have the same knowledge as the people who have read it. I still feel I can control Geralt more and make him my version then I could Hawke.

[Dariuszp]

@Avalla'ch, sorry about that :-D Gerald is german name :-) I often mispell it because of that. Also there is no such name in our country so you know :-)

@Ringo12, i feel the same thing but still. It's probably because we got much more impact on world around us (Act II for example was big suprise when i play game second time with diferent choice). And endings are just great. Still I didn't want to let get gilled character from the book that I like :-D

In DA II i dont feel character. He say what i dont want. Voice is nice feature but it dont feel me. I prefer KOTOR or DAO way when you just got lines to say. They can be short like in ME or Witcher 2 but i want my character to act as i want. It's not there in DA II.
In other hand i did love voice acting in The Witcher 2 because it fit to character. You cannot have this without pre-defined character.

So to end my "bla bla bla" here. Witcher pre-defined character is good as long as there is reason for that.
Dragon Age created character is good because you can make it your own.

But if you combine ME and DA as they did in DA II when you got wheel with sentences that dont represent what you want, voice that is not yours then adding boobs as you like to your character dont change nothing. It's still not yours and it's hollow.

So if you ask me then i prefer DAO "silent character" or Witcher "well known character with history on his own". I didnt like at all DA II "hawk that do something else i want, speak voice i dont want but look like i want".

Modifié par Dariuszp, 03 juin 2011 - 03:51 .

[Sutekh]

Ringo12 wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

And here lies the "bias" problem I was talking about. You can't have the same view than the average gamer who hasn't read the book, if only because your knowledge of Geralt is way more deeper than anything a game can throw at you. You were a fan of Geralt before the game came out, and it changes everything.

I haven't read the books yet so I don't have the same knowledge as the people who have read it. I still feel I can control Geralt more and make him my version then I could Hawke.

I was replying to Darius specifically, not saying it's the case for everyone.

Relating or not to a given char is a very personal thing. I don't relate to Geralt, and I explained why. I relate to Hawke, and I explained why too. For you, it's the other way around. "eye of the beholder" and all that sort of things. 

[Complistic]

I actually felt embarrassment for Bioware after playing through The Witcher 2.

[Valus]

Complistic wrote...

I actually felt embarrassment for Bioware after playing through The Witcher 2.

Yeah... I actually thought I couldn't dislike DA2 more than I already did. Then I played TW2 a few times and then went back and tried to play DA2. Sure enough, literally unplayable by the standards set forth by CDPR.

[FiachSidhe]

I had no problem "being my character" in DA2. No less than I did in DA:O.

[Chromie]

Valus wrote...

Complistic wrote...

I actually felt embarrassment for Bioware after playing through The Witcher 2.

Yeah... I actually thought I couldn't dislike DA2 more than I already did. Then I played TW2 a few times and then went back and tried to play DA2. Sure enough, literally unplayable by the standards set forth by CDPR.

It's important to stress that
we are not changing the underlying game vision. I think The Witcher 2
on Xbox will be one of the deepest, most non-linear and most mature
games ever released on any console. And since this is, in my opinion,
our core strength, changing it in order to suit a wider audience would
be an unforgivable mistake. We believe that there are lots of mature
console gamers looking for the type of deep, complex experience The
Witcher 2 offers.

....



Our goal was to keep the
PC specifics and take advantage of the most sophisticated hardware,
which - let's be honest – has left the current generation of consoles
far behind. The similar philosophy was described by DICE's general
manager, Karl Magnus Troedsson, on Battlefield 3.

Never change CDPR, never change.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

[FiachSidhe]

Ringo12 wrote...

Valus wrote...

Complistic wrote...

I actually felt embarrassment for Bioware after playing through The Witcher 2.

Yeah... I actually thought I couldn't dislike DA2 more than I already did. Then I played TW2 a few times and then went back and tried to play DA2. Sure enough, literally unplayable by the standards set forth by CDPR.

It's important to stress that
we are not changing the underlying game vision. I think The Witcher 2
on Xbox will be one of the deepest, most non-linear and most mature
games ever released on any console. And since this is, in my opinion,
our core strength, changing it in order to suit a wider audience would
be an unforgivable mistake. We believe that there are lots of mature
console gamers looking for the type of deep, complex experience The
Witcher 2 offers.

....



Our goal was to keep the
PC specifics and take advantage of the most sophisticated hardware,
which - let's be honest – has left the current generation of consoles
far behind. The similar philosophy was described by DICE's general
manager, Karl Magnus Troedsson, on Battlefield 3.

Never change CDPR, never change.

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

You might want to go hang out on CDPR's forum then.

[Myounage]

@OP: The problem isn't a real hate for voiced / fixed protagonists, as most of those people enjoyed Mass Effect / Mass Effect 2. What they're really complaining about, even if they don't know it, is just that Hawke is a horribly uninteresting and weak character. He has no personality, and nothing about him that says, "Hey, I'm Hawke" unless you pick the preset with the blood ... thing.

Geralt on the other hand is a strong character with an actual past and personality. Even if he shares similar motives to Hawke (his own interests, not "HURRDURR SAVIN TEH WORLDZ") The Witcher 2 makes his issues a lot more relatable and pressing. Commander Shepard is the same story, especially Renegade Shep. You can understand Geralt and Commander Shepard. They are somewhat strongly defined characters written with confidence. The reason nobody complains about them is that they are good protagonists. People complain about Hawke because he is a weak protagonist. Had Bioware gone the Shepard / Geralt route and made Hawke a bit more strongly defined (ironically enough) people might actually complain about it less.

Basically, Hawke being a fixed character contributes nothing to the game. At all. He has none of the advantages a proper fixed protagonist does, but all the flaws. The issue with Hawke is that Bioware may as well have let you play any race with a number of background stories (origins perhaps? hmmm ...), and the game would be basically the same. If they did that for Commander Shepard or Geralt though ... those games would be very different.

tl;dr: A fixed protagonist is okay if it's an interesting character that helps tie the game together like Geralt or Commander Shepard. Hawke is a terrible, uninteresting cardboard cutout who wants to BE A DARGON!

Modifié par Myounage, 03 juin 2011 - 08:30 .