514 réponses à ce sujet

[Valus]

Myrkale wrote...

Valus wrote...

We can't. Witcher 2 forums are not up and running yet. CDPR told us we should feel free to hang out here and talk about how cool their game is though.

While our forums are down we encourage you to discuss The Witcher 2 on other message boards like Neogaf and GoG.com.

So nice to see that you can't read, or perhaps you're just dyslexic.

Have you clicked either of those links? They take you straight to Bioware Social Network. Get your facts straight yo.

[Drakard]

I just finished playing the Witcher and i felt that it was a much better RPG than DA:2 (or maybe even..dare i say it.. DA1) because of the degree of immersion i felt while playing it. Combat mechanics, graphics are all well and good but at the end of the day anything that calls itself an RPG has to draw in the player and make them feel something for the character they play and the world they exist in. I think if you read the introduction by the CD Projekt RED team in the Witcher Game manual you see where they are coming from. A game with soul that remembers the roots of all real RPG's in pen and paper D&D,Call of Cuthula and suchlike that emerged almost 30 years ago. I really hope Bioware manage to produce something wonderful again like they did almost a decade ago with Neverwinter Nights. Dragon Age Origins was a great step forward but in DA2 the wheels fell off IMHO. I wouldn't slag off anyone who loved DA2 but if BIOWARE make another RPG..and call it that... then i think they should repay a visit to the roots of the genre.  They know where to find them

Modifié par Drakard, 10 juillet 2011 - 09:42 .

[astrallite]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Aargh12 wrote...

I will tell you - TW2 gives you way more freedom in doing things than DA2. Plus Geralt is a better character than Hawke.

/thread

I disagree.

Some people believe the choices you make that can result in 16 different endings give you a little more freedom than DA2.

But your mileage may vary.

Modifié par astrallite, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:19 .

[astrallite]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Big difference for me: not going to play TW games. A couple of reasons is that TW requires more reported twitch skills, and the focus on the so called Mature materials (eg; sex. nudity, profanity, etc) is not for me.

Since you like using the term often lately, sounds like "confirmation bias" on your part you go by "reported", and since you haven't played them by using that remark.

...I wonder if Gaider can teach him any new words.

Elhanan wouldn't play TW2 if it was the greatest game of all time. It's not made by Bioware.

If it was a Bioware game would be on it like white on rice. (Notice everything he criticizes is in Mass Effect 2, which he owns).

Modifié par astrallite, 10 juillet 2011 - 10:34 .

[Chromie]

astrallite wrote...
Elhanan wouldn't play TW2 if it was the greatest game of all time. It's not made by Bioware.

If it was a Bioware game would be on it like white on rice. (Notice everything he criticizes is in Mass Effect 2, which he owns).

I bet if Bioware did the same thing everyone would praise Bioware but because an up and coming studio decided to take their time and make a gem of a game Biofans seem to hate it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ringo12 wrote...

astrallite wrote...
Elhanan wouldn't play TW2 if it was the greatest game of all time. It's not made by Bioware.

If it was a Bioware game would be on it like white on rice. (Notice everything he criticizes is in Mass Effect 2, which he owns).

I bet if Bioware did the same thing everyone would praise Bioware but because an up and coming studio decided to take their time and make a gem of a game Biofans seem to hate it.

I don't think that's fair to say. While I have seen some who decide they want to hate TW2 even before playing it, who end up playing it and in their on going "review" pretty much state that they already hate the game in the first line, I am not sure these kind of people are largely representative of anything, and in any case, are very easy to ignore and not take seriously (the opposite is much harder).

Many however could genuinely feel that what Bioware focuses on (like companions), and the customization (like gender) makes it a priori better or more interesting than TW games in their eyes. And that's perfectly fine. In otherwords, I don't think that many are Bioware fans just for the sake of it and would accept anything it gives them.  I think most are bioware fans because it provides them with things that interest them. Things that TW games do not provide, or provide as well.

[jds1bio]

Assuming that character customization implies character ownership, BioWare hasn't had an RPG player-character that is largely player-owned in a long time:

DA2 has Hawke - allows the player to modify appearance and gender, and respond to situations in a small number of ways.  But what makes him/her a fixed character is that his/her place in the DA universe and stories is (so far) immutable.

ME1 and ME2 have Shepard - allows the player to modify appearance and gender, and respond to situations in a small number of ways.  But what makes him/her a fixed character is that his/her place in the ME universe and the stories (so far) is immutable.

DA1 has the Warden - player-named and largely customizable by gender, race, appearance, combat grunts, and combat build.  But what makes him/her a fixed character is that his/her place in the DA universe and the stories (so far) is 99% immutable - in this case you largely have control of where the Warden ends up at the end of the game.

JE allows you to choose a specific character to play as, but all characters are BioWare's creations first and foremost.

KOTOR allows you to make up a human combatant/Jedi of your naming and choosing, yet you realize that your character is actually a fixed character because his/her place in the SW universe and stories is ultimately immutable.

Now, Geralt - he comes with a past that the player had nothing to do with, so he seems to be a fixed character.  However, establishing his current identity, and his newfound place in the Witcher universe, are things that are mostly under your control as neither are fixed nor immutable.  Who you are and what you do as Geralt are always recognized and get appropriate reactions from NPCs, even if you decided to stay out of conflicts completely.  You can completely abandon the main quest if you want to and proceed with the game on purely a "selfish" or Geralt-centric basis, if that is what you want Geralt to do as a player.  Geralt's place in the Witcher universe at the end of his latest game is neither predictable nor assured at any point during the game, particularly since I can't say in one simple sentence what the final boss/climax fight is and what the outcome will be for every player.  One or even two sentences just won't apply for everyone.  It's up to the player to decide how Geralt will act, and the outcome can be surprising. 

But DA2 handles this differently.  In one DA2 playthrough, I allowed my Hawke to send an NPC back into a
life of slavery and misery.  Yet none of Hawke's friends or acquaintances, especially the do-gooders, seemed particularly broken up about it.  Huh?  In another playthrough Hawke was a mage, yet through no input of my own, somehow I avoided all the taunts and persecutions that other mages regularly received in Kirkwall.  With the lack of NPC reactions to the player's actions, and the way time is forced to skip forward at points, it is clear that Hawke is a character that is purely leased to the player.  No no matter how we play, we are forced to return him/her at the end of each time period, and at the end of the game we have a choice of one of two labeled chutes to drop our Hawke into, and each chute's bottom leads to the same return bin.  Whereas in all previous BioWare games, some share of ownership of character and outcome of the character's actions, however small, is granted to the player and not rescinded during the game.

Now, we as gamers are leased characters all the time, particularly in platformers, so leasing a character doesn't prevent a game from being fun.  DA2 is a fun game.  But OP, this is in part why people are so attached to DA1 and ME2 (and to a lesser extent JE and ME1), because the player's outcomes are different enough that they allow the player's own stories to emerge despite the low level of ownership of the character.  It is in this regard that DA2 stalls out, and TW2 blows all these other games away. 

And though the Warden is probably the most customizable BioWare-established character before and during his/her game, Geralt might just be the character you have the most ownership of when all is said and done.  The question everyone should ask themselves is, does more character ownership necessarily equal more fun?

Modifié par jds1bio, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:14 .

[goofyomnivore]

I'm big on slight personal touches to my character. BioWare gives that freedom(gender, looks, etc), but even then a character, and especially a protagonist is only as good as his/her world and antagonists. DA2 left me uninspired by their world and antagonists, and Hawke is to suffer for it. While Geralt lacks those "vanity" things. I adore his universe.

I felt more connected to Geralt because well he was more interesting and impactful to his universe, and you could see the ideals/values you project on Geralt shaping his world. Hawke was built in the image I wanted, but I didn't really feel any ownership or interest due to a lackluster universe, and no impact from ideals/values. I felt like Anders had a more compelling story than Hawke.

[Ronin2006]

astrallite wrote...

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

Big difference for me: not going to play TW games. A couple of reasons is that TW requires more reported twitch skills, and the focus on the so called Mature materials (eg; sex. nudity, profanity, etc) is not for me.

Since you like using the term often lately, sounds like "confirmation bias" on your part you go by "reported", and since you haven't played them by using that remark.

...I wonder if Gaider can teach him any new words.

Elhanan wouldn't play TW2 if it was the greatest game of all time. It's not made by Bioware.

If it was a Bioware game would be on it like white on rice. (Notice everything he criticizes is in Mass Effect 2, which he owns).

Ease up on Elhanan!

Even though all his opinions on DA2 and TW2 are rubbish and not backed up with decent reasons, and he's unable to argue a point that makes any sense, he does tell some cracking grandpa jokes.

Modifié par Ronin2006, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:23 .

[Chromie]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I don't think that's fair to say. While I have seen some who decide they want to hate TW2 even before playing it, who end up playing it and in their on going "review" pretty much state that they already hate the game in the first line, I am not sure these kind of people are largely representative of anything, and in any case, are very easy to ignore and not take seriously (the opposite is much harder).

Many however could genuinely feel that what Bioware focuses on (like companions), and the customization (like gender) makes it a priori better or more interesting than TW games in their eyes. And that's perfectly fine. In otherwords, I don't think that many are Bioware fans just for the sake of it and would accept anything it gives them.  I think most are bioware fans because it provides them with things that interest them. Things that TW games do not provide, or provide as well.

If people like the customization and squad based combat then fine I have nothing against them. I love that about Bioware's games. But some people say it's not an rpg because you can't make your own character. Well to them I say Planescape Torment.

Then there are tohers who say because it has some sex scenes in full nudity it's porn. Yet many people here are fine with the rough sex shown in Game of Thrones and feel justified to call it good television, not saying it's bad making a point, or that there is too much cursing. Well I always felt the cursing in Bioware games felt off. It's like the voice actors didn't wanna say it. Like right before meeting Isabella "Give us back our money, hesitate, ****.
Also the same people will say it's immature because of Geralt sleeping around when in Witcher 2 you have prositutes who pay so your asking for it, Ves, Triss and I think that's it. You also can avoid them. But people are fine with Zevran and Isabella whoring themselves and saying it's good writing.

Then there's the one who say it's ending is cheap. I feel it's great and ends on a cliff hanger because we'll be getting expansions and free dlc on the way. The cliff hanger also doesn't feel cheap like in DA2. Where we're missing three years or don't know what's gonna happen. We know we have set the stage for an invasion by Nilfgaard. That a dragon with polymorpism might help create the first home of all races in the Northern Kingdoms and that the Witchers from the South are trying to rebuild. Dragon Age 2 ends so abruptly we don't have a single idea what's going. And legacy doesn't look any better and imo it should be free.

[Corto81]

Ringo12 wrote...

Then there's the one who say it's ending is cheap. I feel it's great and ends on a cliff hanger because we'll be getting expansions and free dlc on the way. The cliff hanger also doesn't feel cheap like in DA2. Where we're missing three years or don't know what's gonna happen. We know we have set the stage for an invasion by Nilfgaard. That a dragon with polymorpism might help create the first home of all races in the Northern Kingdoms and that the Witchers from the South are trying to rebuild. Dragon Age 2 ends so abruptly we don't have a single idea what's going. And legacy doesn't look any better and imo it should be free.

I didn't see a lot of "cheap ending" comments as far as TW2 goes, more like "Act 3 is too short" comments.

Which I was disappointed in my first playthrough, but found the 3rd Act much better in my 2nd and 3rd playthrough.
It felt.... Natural, it felt real.

And honestly, in the end, I loved that 90% of quests and content in TW2 has to do with the main plot, and Geralt didn't have the need to go and look for old tomes etc. while Triss' life was on the line etc.

...

Personally, as much as I like character customization, I didn't mind it missing from TW2.
Geralt is cool, he's deep, he's complex, he's as grey in character as his world is (or can be), and the world reacts to him. Be it crows flying away when you approach, you tripping on a bucket of water as you're sneaking, or the plot/story changig.... It reacts.
Even through Geralt is a set protanonist, I feel like he's MY character.
And (this is important), his voice suits his looks.

Hawke is just a bystander, and THAT's the main reason it feels like BW's character, not mine.
His voice is a joke when compared to how my toons look, and nothing he does, or says, matter.

Hawke is as bland as the world he lives in. The tiny Kirkwall and repetitive surroundings go hand-in.hand with how meaningless his decisions are or how cartoony his good-sarcastic-violent respones are.

In the end, Geralt feels much more "me" to me, and he feels like he matters, and like I matter.
Hawke doesn't.

And while I do prefer a customizable toon "a la" BG or Origins, Geralt being a set protagonist never bothered me because the game is a proper RPG (or action-RPG, if you want) done with attention to detail, and basically it's a great game.
DA2, on the other hand, isn't.

[Tirfan]

Well, the thing is, I like customization and silent protagonist, these things allow me to make the characters my own.. Geralt, however, is a good example on how a set character can work - I couldn't RP as him as I view rolplaying, but I could connect to Geralt, because he was a well written character, and not unlike some characters I've personally created in pnp:s. And I could have some influence on Geralt, as a player, not you know, great amounts, but some, enough for me to feel that I, as a player, was an important agency in shaping Geralt and the story.

.. Which is something that Hawke lacked, he is set enough with arbitrary restrictions and voice that I can't customize him enough for him to become MY character.. and then as an actual character he is badly written, there isn't enough to him, not enough data, with Geralt, I could see that every choice I can make, I can justify from the characters point of view (sometimes better, sometimes not so well) There isn't any justifications with Hawke to make any of the choices in-game as a character.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ringo12 wrote...
If people like the customization and squad based combat then fine I have nothing against them. I love that about Bioware's games. But some people say it's not an rpg because you can't make your own character. Well to them I say Planescape Torment.

Then there are tohers who say because it has some sex scenes in full nudity it's porn. Yet many people here are fine with the rough sex shown in Game of Thrones and feel justified to call it good television, not saying it's bad making a point, or that there is too much cursing. Well I always felt the cursing in Bioware games felt off. It's like the voice actors didn't wanna say it. Like right before meeting Isabella "Give us back our money, hesitate, ****.
Also the same people will say it's immature because of Geralt sleeping around when in Witcher 2 you have prositutes who pay so your asking for it, Ves, Triss and I think that's it. You also can avoid them. But people are fine with Zevran and Isabella whoring themselves and saying it's good writing.

DA:O also had the Pearl, with a surprise me option that implies beastiality....

Yea, I've read comments like that here and there. But I don't think most fans of Bioware say that. Thsoe who do are easy to ignore, I think.

And I love Act 3 and other than superficial similarities, DA2's ending was nothing like it imo, in part because of the reasons you mention.

Corto81 wrote...
Even through Geralt is a set protanonist, I feel like he's MY character.
And (this is important), his voice suits his looks.

Agreed. Many hate his voice, but I think it suits his looks and personality.
I actually like his voice quite a bit. It sounds like Geralt.

[Elhanan]

FWIW - I liked Act III; just not the included First Enchanter part of it. Reminded me of The Empire Strikes Back cliffhanger, though this time it is the villain that is flash frozen in metal. And Salmon pink, too.

[Sutekh]

Ringo12 wrote...
Then there are tohers who say because it has some sex scenes in full nudity it's porn. Yet many people here are fine with the rough sex shown in Game of Thrones and feel justified to call it good television, not saying it's bad making a point, or that there is too much cursing. Well I always felt the cursing in Bioware games felt off. It's like the voice actors didn't wanna say it. Like right before meeting Isabella "Give us back our money, hesitate, ****.
Also the same people will say it's immature because of Geralt sleeping around when in Witcher 2 you have prositutes who pay so your asking for it, Ves, Triss and I think that's it. You also can avoid them. But people are fine with Zevran and Isabella whoring themselves and saying it's good writing.

TW1 was very immature in the way it treated sex, so maybe some people are still stuck on that impression? TW2, from what I've seen so far, does it tastefully, and with humor (the dwarf who believes he's hearing ghosts is priceless). This said, I'm a little miffed that full nudity only concerns women. I'd rather have no nudity than your usual double standard. The targeted audience is made very clear and as not being part of it, I feel left out. But hey, I'm used to it.

The swearing, however, is largely overdone. You can't have a dialog without a dozen "ploughing" thrown in for no real reason, and it becomes tiresome after a while. I found it much more natural in DA2.

As for relating to Geralt, that's where I have a problem actually. I just can't feel him, and I'm sorry but the Tranquil-toned VA and the overall lack of expressions don't help. They give the impression the guy is just going through the motions and doesn't really care. Iorveth and Roche are shining in comparison.

I already had this problem in TW1, but I went through it, made all the choices and ended with a slightly mine Geralt. And then the import in TW2 just wipes that out and I end up with either my choices forgotten (Scoia'tel) or completely retconned (I chose Shani). The game has me start with Triss in bed, then go on a quest to save her, while I dislike her a lot. So while it's true the game gives you a lot of choices and make them count, it also forces your hand and some of your motivations. I have more freedom re: Hawke's personal life, so, maybe, that's why I relate more to him.