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[Maverick827]

It's actually quite simple: The Witcher 2 engages the player in a plot-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said plot. Dragon Age 2 engages the player in a character-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said character.

Plot-driven narratives are the more popular and accepted of the two, with blockbusters like Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean often satisfying both casual as well as hardcore fantasy fans. Character-driven narratives are typically more reserved: less popular but more critically acclaimed, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (though it does have an HBO series now).

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

[Gavinthelocust]

Maverick827 wrote...

It's actually quite simple: The Witcher 2 engages the player in a plot-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said plot. Dragon Age 2 engages the player in a character-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said character.

Plot-driven narratives are the more popular and accepted of the two, with blockbusters like Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean often satisfying both casual as well as hardcore fantasy fans. Character-driven narratives are typically more reserved: less popular but more critically acclaimed, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (though it does have an HBO series now).

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

Someone give this man a medal.
QFT

[Faust1979]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

It's actually quite simple: The Witcher 2 engages the player in a plot-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said plot. Dragon Age 2 engages the player in a character-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said character.

Plot-driven narratives are the more popular and accepted of the two, with blockbusters like Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean often satisfying both casual as well as hardcore fantasy fans. Character-driven narratives are typically more reserved: less popular but more critically acclaimed, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (though it does have an HBO series now).

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

Someone give this man a medal.
QFT

I would give him a medal if I could

[Khayness]

Maverick827 wrote...

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

Try Alpha Protocol. Conversations even reflect on your playstyle during missions and what do you wear, and if you chose Recruit/Veteran, even on your background. And it has so high replay value due different outcomes that it is ridiculous. The combat mechanics are fishy, but everything else makes you forget about it.

Maverick827 wrote...

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

I don't get it. When I roleplay I don't play as me, even when playing PnP, I act upon the personality I've made up for my character.

That's immersion what you are talking about.

Do I kill Anders because I think he is a whiny sucker who screw up huge time and a retconned shadow of his former glory, or because I think Hawke was felt betrayed about Anders doing an unexcusable and horrible deed by exploiting his/her trust?

Modifié par Khayness, 23 mai 2011 - 09:11 .

[88mphSlayer]

Maverick827 wrote...

It's actually quite simple: The Witcher 2 engages the player in a plot-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said plot. Dragon Age 2 engages the player in a character-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said character.

Plot-driven narratives are the more popular and accepted of the two, with blockbusters like Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean often satisfying both casual as well as hardcore fantasy fans. Character-driven narratives are typically more reserved: less popular but more critically acclaimed, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (though it does have an HBO series now).

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

eh, concept doesn't carry the experience, execution does, and in the case of DA2 execution let down what sense of personalization and connection a lot of people have with Hawke

just comparing Hawke to the Warden i think more people have more connection with the Warden because there were more fully realized choices that the plot grants us that flesh out our character more than the plot > character driven storytelling of Dragon Age 2 which demands that characters do things because apparently they know the script ahead of time, not to mention we're looking at Hawke through past-tense narration, in every sense of the word the game encourages you to roleplay as somebody else - not yourself

so in the end, what did "I" do during those 2-3 year time skips?

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 23 mai 2011 - 09:22 .

[Woodstock-TC]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...


While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

Someone give this man a medal.
QFT

This. thanks!

[erynnar]

Serpieri Nei wrote...

Did not being able to choose my look and gender bother me? No, it didn’t. I chose to play as Geralt and take on that persona. Would I like to see character customization in Witcher games? No, would I love to see character customization in a CD Projekt games? Yes, so what is the difference? Contradiction? No because I don’t use idioms for comparison that indicate a false analogy has been made between two items, such as where an apple is faulted for not being as good as an orange.  It’s quite simple when I played the Witcher 2, I wasn’t expecting DAO or DAII. It was judged based on its predecessor's merits and the RPG elements within the game. It is only fair to compare the elements that DA2 and Witcher 2 shared to see which did better in that area.

In the end, CD Projeckt delivered a game that wasn’t afraid to knock you on your ass, and no I’m not just referring to the combat. Witcher II stayed true to its predecessor and built upon it success.  Bioware, however delivered a low quality game that was neither good nor bad that removed elements that made Origins a critically acclaimed game. Did they make some improvements? A few, but for every step forward they took two giant leaps backwards and created a sequel that fell short of its Predecessor.  Sequels should feature the same basic mechanics with new stories and content, and not be a re-invention of the wheel. DA2 will forever be dwarfed in Origin’s shadow. 

This! ^  Yes we can copare which did better in which area. But I compare DA2 with DAO as whole, a game based on it's predecessor (not on Witcher2). And comaring who did better in different areas is not a contradiction. My disappointment in DA2 isn't because I find Witcher2 did better in some areas as an action RPG, or were very similar to each other in that genre, but how DA2 compared to DAO.

Am I having fun with Witcher2? More than I really expected to. I am not much for battles or fights, I prefer story. But I am having fun (button mashing and all) in Withcer 2 which surprised the heck out of me, truth be told. I don't find the battles tedious like the endless waves were (except as a mage) like DA2.  The waves in Witcher 2 are more like the waves in DAO to me, appropriate for the situation or battle.

The story is fascinating (yes the stories in DA2 could have been too and are still intriguing), the world alive and immersive, again, more like DAO rather than DA2. If I was going to compare Witcher to any RPG, it would be DAO. I feel they are more alike than DA2 and Witcher 2. 

Hmmm, so much food for thought.

[Kusy]

Geralt is a predefined character already estabilished by novels and books. Even taking into consideration any kind of character customization that you can experience in Dragon Age is like wondering why a Star Wars game doesn't allow you to play Luke Skywalker as a homosexual, black, girl.

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 23 mai 2011 - 09:26 .

[Addai]

Oloria wrote...
So I started to get the impression that it simply isn't possible to RP a "nice" Geralt - that he has to be a bit of an arse - perhaps because he is in the books? I'm fine with flawed characters as a whole (in fact I prefer them), but this particular character flaw felt a little forced upon me; it isn't one I'd choose as a trait for my PC myself. Maybe I judged too early in the game, but after that I found it hard to re-evaluate Geralt's personality.

Geralt does have some pre-set personality.  You're not so much defining his personality in the game as his political stance and some of his life philosophy.  These are the events that shape the game, so it's really the game plot that you're molding, although Geralt is personally affected.

I quite like Geralt as a character- but then I like broody, snarky men.

So for reasons (and examples) above, I find it easier to relate to characters like Hawke and Shepard, even with a voice, pre-defined family backgrounds. I suspect that simply being able to pick gender makes a huge difference, but also appearance. I don't think I could complete a playthrough of DA2 or ME with the default appearance characters either.

Hawke and Shepard don't do it for me almost solely because of the voiced protagonist.  This enforces a certain generic-ness to them that's reflected even in the VO (moreso with Shepard).  In fact I couldn't relate to Shepard at all until I started playing a renegade, which actually reminded me of playing Geralt.  Geralt as a woman in space was pretty fun. 

I relate more closely to my Warden because I was drawn in more to shaping them- giving them backstory, filling in the blanks that the lack of VO and cinematic cutscenes allowed for my imagination.  As Bioware moves exclusively into cinematic play, I fear I'll continue to be as moved by the PC's as I am by movie protagonists- which is to say, not much.

[ZombiePowered]

The truth it people are really, really stupid. They're still upset over DA2 not being a large expansion for DA:O, and are looking for games to tout around as an example of what Bioware could make if they weren't EA/the consumer industry/COD player's sex slaves or whatever it is they're calling them these days. See TV Trope's Law of Internet Jackassery--they explain it best.

The confusing thing is that there are just as many personality restrictions for non-voiced characters. The Warden was almost always bland. Every once in a while I got to say something snarky or characterful. People just take that blandness and make up their own personality to paste over it in their minds. There is no support for their particular character in the actual game--it's all imagined. The easiest solution to this over-dramatized dilemma would be to provide an option to turn off character voice overs. You wouldn't see nearly as many people complaining if they could imagine their own voice saying the dialogue.

[Elhanan]

While I pref the Warden to Hawke, a brief return to DAO had me looking around for the VO.; missed it.

For myself, I would prefer to have exactly what I am to say on the Wheel marked as the devs desired, then have the VO say it; skip the pseudo-speech portion altogether. Just nothing about backs & ladders, and we should be good.

[Luvinn]

Rockpopple wrote...

I don't care about whether you can play a fixed character or not. To me that's a non-issue.

What's a clear case of bias - and hilariously awesome to read about how these people defend it when they're confronted with it - is how much they hated the ME2 style dialogue wheel in DA2 when TW2 uses the exact same paraphrase system.

Also, keep in mind that when they were complaining about the dialogue wheel/paraphrase system, they never once mentioned or talked about "real choices". They just hated the system because "Hawke didn't say what you expected him to say/ you didn't know what he was gonna say".

Exact same problem with TW2.

But that's okay, because it's TW2.

Not to mention I've heard the game is what, 30 hours from stem to stern? Hey, I'm not just pulling this number out of thin air, a lot of game magazines have said it's under 40 hours to play. Now I'm not gonna complain about that - Alpha Protocol was short but infinitely replayable. 

I am gonna call bias again, cuz the same people complaining about Dragon Age 2's "short length" (around 30 hours if you skip EVERYTHING) still praise TW2 for having around the same amount of gameplay. Hi-larious.

Ever heard of, IOKIYAR? I think we have another one: IOKIYATW2.

Of if you've never heard of that term, here's another one for you: Dragon Age 2 Derangement Syndrome.

Sounds catchy. Either way, have a blast. 

The dialoge wheel is fine. I always liked it in every single game i played. The 30-40 hour length is also fine. My gripes with DA2 were the lack of 'real choice' as you put it, the generic story, and re-used areas. Each of those areas were done well in TW2. Oh, and the never ending waves of reinforcements. Just a terrible idea.

Modifié par Luvinn, 23 mai 2011 - 10:21 .

[Elhanan]

'Scuse me, but I have not seen so many tales of refugee to riches via loss of family, and being inserted into political and religious conflicts that it could be ref as generic.

I would contend that while there may be no new tales, that this one is as refreshing as the ones seen in the opening Origins from DAO. Or perhaps TW series, too; uncertain, as I have not played them.

[Ottemis]

Expectations are the mother of all f-ups.

[Luvinn]

I use generic in the way that it was presented. I mentioned it in another post that it reminded me of the GTA series. Take GTA:San Andreas. You start off as a small time gang-banger after you mother was murdered, then through doing quests (jobs), killing a lot of people and the like, you become a big time player. Then you start doing things that affect the city. While it doesn't have the religious or political agenda in it, it is really a similar blueprint. GTA4 you take on the role of a russian immigrant, who comes over to family over in america (correct me if im wrong, never actually played gta4). Then you start your "rise" by....doing missions (quests).

Modifié par Luvinn, 23 mai 2011 - 10:36 .

[Nerevar-as]

Luvinn wrote...

I use generic in the way that it was presented. I mentioned it in another post that it reminded me of the GTA series. Take GTA:San Andreas. You start off as a small time gang-banger after you mother was murdered, then through doing quests (jobs), killing a lot of people and the like, you become a big time player. Then you start doing things that affect the city. While it doesn't have the religious or political agenda in it, it is really a similar blueprint. GTA4 you take on the role of a russian immigrant, who comes over to family over in america (correct me if im wrong, never actually played gta4). Then you start your "rise" by....doing missions (quests).

At least you put it as the character´s merits his success (haven´t played GTAs). Hawke´s is presented as an accident, the two most powerful leaders of KW defer to an almost stranger because they can´t agree wheter to create a distraction or charge head first. I saw very little in the game of the most important character of the time or why Templars/Mages would give a damn about his/her opinion post game. Hawke is mostly a witness, Geralt, GW, Shepard, and most videogame main characters are the ones who define the world around them.

[Morroian]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Anyway, the main praise TW2 is getting over DA2 isn't so focused on what you list, it's mainly the fact that in DA2, your questing choices have little impact on the story. In TW2, you actually role play your character where your decisions have consequences, this makes the game an RPG. 

No it doesn't, directing the main plot is actually tangential to role playing a character. Role playing is about defining and molding a character. Sure you can make decisions that fit the character you create but its not necessary to role playing.

[Patriciachr34]

Maverick827 wrote...

It's actually quite simple: The Witcher 2 engages the player in a plot-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said plot. Dragon Age 2 engages the player in a character-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said character.

Plot-driven narratives are the more popular and accepted of the two, with blockbusters like Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean often satisfying both casual as well as hardcore fantasy fans. Character-driven narratives are typically more reserved: less popular but more critically acclaimed, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (though it does have an HBO series now).

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

I would have to agree with this.  I like both games simply because they give me different perspectives.  I like Witcher because I can work within an established personality.  I like DA because I can define that personality.  Between DA2 and Witcher 2, (for as far as I've gotten), I find the Witcher world a bit more engaging than DA2.  Although Witcher 2 may fall flat on it's face as the story progresses (I'm still in the prologue), right now that is my opinion.

As far as re-playability, DA has that in spades.  I've only manged 1 complete Witcher play through as opposed to my 10 + completed DA play throughs.  This doesn't make DA better than Witcher.  It just makes it different.

[Morroian]

MorrigansLove wrote...

Maybe if Dragon Age 2 wasn't filled with repeated areas to make it longer, it would've been more enjoyable?

So you'd rather have less content than recycled areas?

[Morroian]

Ringo12 wrote...

Hawke didn't grow or change as a person. Hawke wasn't even affected at all by his or her mother's death.

Dunno what game you were playing but all my Hawkes have been affected by Leandra's death, if they were not to be affected it would be because I deliberately role played it that way.

[LadyRenegade]

in tw2, u can make a decision n it can end up getting your character killed right from the beginning
think its more of a, yeah try to pull a dick move and think you can get away with it thing lol

[MorrigansLove]

Morroian wrote...

MorrigansLove wrote...

Maybe if Dragon Age 2 wasn't filled with repeated areas to make it longer, it would've been more enjoyable?

So you'd rather have less content than recycled areas?

Obviously, I'd rather they spend more time on the game so we have more content, but no recycled areas,either. But, as EA is at the helm of their games, that's never going to happen, so I think I'd rather have less content, to be perfectly honest with you. I want to feel immersed into a fantasy world when playing Dragon Age. Not getting DeJaVu over, and over again, making me want to turn off the game, due to it feeling so incredibly unfinished. 
 

Modifié par MorrigansLove, 23 mai 2011 - 11:15 .

[phaonica]

Faust1979 wrote...

 Why would you feel any RPG game character is yours? you don't really get to decide what you want to do or how to talk plus you're just sitting there and moving buttons on a controller.

I don't play video games because I love pressing buttons on a controller. I don't read novels because I enjoy turning pages. When I say that certain characters feel more like they are "mine", I don't mean the character does exactly as I wish, all the time. I mean that the game makes me feel like I am the character on the adventure, as opposed to watching a character that is not me go on an adventure.

Also one of the things that bothers me about RPG video games is how you're forced into doing certain things. Like for example in the first Dragon Age why must I be forced to fight Zevren? you could easily just back track behind you. Especially if the Warden you've created to be is a dickish character he/she probably wouldn't care that a caravan was attacked you'd just avoid it and get back to business.  But no the game forces you into a certain direction so it can tell it's story. Western RPG games just give the illusion that a character is yours when really you're just making characters that developers want you to make so a certain story can be told well

RPGs are not the only games that force you to do certain things to tell their story. As a matter of fact, pretty much any game that has a story does that, even first person shooters and real time strategy games.

Modifié par phaonica, 23 mai 2011 - 11:17 .

[erynnar]

Maverick827 wrote...

It's actually quite simple: The Witcher 2 engages the player in a plot-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said plot. Dragon Age 2 engages the player in a character-driven narrative, and allows the player to define said character.

Plot-driven narratives are the more popular and accepted of the two, with blockbusters like Lord of the Rings and Pirates of the Caribbean often satisfying both casual as well as hardcore fantasy fans. Character-driven narratives are typically more reserved: less popular but more critically acclaimed, such as A Song of Ice and Fire (though it does have an HBO series now).

While Dragon Age 2 as a whole was not quite critically acclaimed, the storytelling, themes, and characterization options of the player character were perhaps the most "literary" in any game to date. Whether or not you felt the gameplay supported this well is another issue, but Dragon Age 2 has been the closest I have gotten to be an author-as-player. The Witcher 2 has been fun so far, but it's lacking such a connection, a connection that I value greatly.

To quote an earlier post in this thread:

But because I could customize his look and I could mold his personality and ideas, I was inserted into this character and Hawke became me. So in the end when I saw that Hawke (I) had pretty much failed Hawke's (my) loved ones were all dead or distant and Hawke (I) was forced back on the run, I felt depressed.

That was the point.

DA2 is just as literary (bookshelves in bookstores lined with
rags to riches and political intrigue, rise to power books). I just felt like DA2 was a book missing pages, and whole chapters.  Or it was a book with three short stories that should be turned into full novels in their own rights.


Despite some people being tired of the "save the world from the evilist, evil evah," Tolkien and many many others are still literary. There are shelves lined with those kinds of fantasy books, so it isn't that DAO's story was not like literature or that it is a tired story.  John Campbell pointed out that we still love those stories ( I love both types myself, aw hell, I just love books). And I felt the same way about DAO and feeling like an author as I played. In fact, it got me writing again. DA2 didn't do that. 

DIfferent strokes for different folks. Now isn't that cool? I think so.:happy:

[SavesTheDay]

How similar is the Witcher to Dragon Age? I haven't played it, but I've noticed that people on this forum make a lot comparisons between the games.