39 réponses à ce sujet

[Clonedzero]

but the OP didnt ask which one was better at optimal play.

actually the OP asked what would be best for them if they want a weapon heavy character with some biotics but didnt want to only be in CQC. the off-build vanguard suits that role perfectly. i was pointing out you can play a vanguard alittle differently than its optimal build while still being completely viable (i.e not gimping yourself).

for some reason you find people suggesting off-builds as bad? they're extremely fun and add alot to the game. i was merely sharing my experience with playing a vanguard alittle differently than most people, hell my off-script vanguard preformed far better than my adept did. so its not "gimping the vanguard" by not exclusively using charge simply because you havent been able to do it doesnt mean my vanguard style is "gimped'. i can clear a room on insanity twice as fast with my "gimped" vanguard as any other class ive played, if thats "gimped" then well whatever.

also when you "only stick to facts" in such a situation its very limiting. it pushes the concept that any class played differently than "normal" is completely gimped. which is absolutely not the case. the best playstyle is the one that works for you, offering different perspectives on how builds can work helps people come up with ideas on how they can make each class work for them rather than making them work with the class. theres absolutely nothing wrong with people offering alternative builds, even if you disagree with them.

you remind me of one of those guys that plays MMOs and yells at people for having one spec point out of place for a 'fun talent" rather than a 100% maximized efficiency build

[termokanden]

By all means play a non-standard build. But I have to admit that I think you'll be a bit gimped if you are a vanguard that never really uses Charge. But that doesn't mean every vanguard should be playing Claymore pinball with reload trick 100% of the time.

I do think that's quite fun though...

Modifié par termokanden, 28 mai 2011 - 03:08 .

[Clonedzero]

oh i never said not to use charge. that'd be silly not to use it even if you're not focusing on CQC. its absolutely BRILLIANT to move fluidly around the battlefield and to flank enemies. confuse them. jump into the back, take out the rocket guys, jump back out. getting away from a heavy mech

its a great move that has alot more uses than "charge - > shotgun".

i have a hard time playing anything OTHER than a vanguard because its such a tactically empowering move. allows you to approach battles from dozens of angles instead of the path the game sends you into the battle on.

[JaegerBane]

Clonedzero wrote...

but the OP didnt ask which one was better at optimal play.

No, but unless you're claiming to be able to understand how the guy thinks and therefore be able to judge what he'll find fun and not fun, you can't really assume that he'll enjoy playing a gimped Vanguard. Considering the guy mentioned that he didn't want to be solely in CQC it seems a bit weird that you'd suggest picking a CQC class but not doing CQC. If you find that fun, great, but, you do owe it to the dude to make it clear to him that what you're advocating isn't the best way of approaching the class.

 i was pointing out you can play a vanguard alittle differently than its optimal build while still being completely viable (i.e not gimping yourself).

The concept of being 'completely viable' is irrelevant to the thread, as there are no classes in the game, no matter how badly played, that are not viable. They're all usable no matter how you play them. You're not making any kind of point by stating that the class can complete the game. This isn't WoW.

for some reason you find people suggesting off-builds as bad? they're extremely fun and add alot to the game. i was merely sharing my experience with playing a vanguard alittle differently than most people, hell my off-script vanguard preformed far better than my adept did. so its not "gimping the vanguard" by not exclusively using charge simply because you havent been able to do it doesnt mean my vanguard style is "gimped'. i can clear a room on insanity twice as fast with my "gimped" vanguard as any other class ive played, if thats "gimped" then well whatever.

You seem to be trying to turn this into a 'I can play better than you' match, here. 'Gimped' is not a term of opinion, it's weighing up how well the class can function based on cooldowns, mobility, how well it handles levels, etc. The fact of the matter is that the Vanguard's cooldowns are slower, it's weapon selection is weighted towards CQC, it's powers don't interact as well as the Adept's and it's class power is very specialised compared to most. The logical result of this is that, while it *can* play outside of CQC, it physically won't play as well outside of this as it would if it focused on it's specialism.

I mean, you can claim that you can 'clear rooms twice as fast as any other class' but that's essentially meaningless to the point of the thread. All that shows is that you're better with the Vanguard then you are with the other classes, as I can guarantee to you right now that a Mattock/Widow Soldier will outperform it, simply because the DPS it can output, over any range, eclipses anything the Vanguard can kick out. Particularly if you're farting around with Shockwave rather than Charging into point blank.

also when you "only stick to facts" in such a situation its very limiting. it pushes the concept that any class played differently than "normal" is completely gimped.

That's absolute nonsense. Sticking to the facts doesn't somehow push the concept that playing a sniper infiltrator over a shotgun infiltrator means they're completely gimped, Or a Power Sentinel over an Assault Sentinel etc. All it means is that the OP has some useful info to use.

theres absolutely nothing wrong with people offering alternative builds, even if you disagree with them.

Of course there isn't. The problem is that you're advocating a build that's sub-optimal, demonstratably so, and you're neglecting to mention it. It isn't a question of 'disagreeing' with it, it's a question of pointing out that since a Vanguard lacks any serious long-range abilities but has awesome CQC abilities, using it outside of CQC isn't going to be as effective as using it in. It's common sense. I mean, to be brutally honest, do you think you're the first person to try this kind of thing on the Vanguard?

I don't doubt that you enjoy this kind of gameplay, and for what it's worth, my own Vanguard is far closer to what he was in ME1 then the Charge fiend it is in ME2.... but that's purely my own choice. I wouldn't advocate to people to play it that way without pointing out that a lot of what I do I do for fun, not because it's the most effective. But I can actually tell the difference between what is most effective and what I find to be the most fun. They're often not the same.

you remind me of one of those guys that plays MMOs and yells at people for having one spec point out of place for a 'fun talent" rather than a 100% maximized efficiency build

I'm not quite sure how pointing out that doing stupid stuff like using Shockwave over Charge and avoiding shotguns on a character that specialises in them isn't the best way of doing things means that I'm a MMO powergamer, but hey, if you can't debate without resorting to Ad Hominems, I guess that shows how much substance is in your points.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 mai 2011 - 05:58 .

[Clonedzero]

dude. ive admitted multiple times in this thread that its not an optimized build first of all. just because it isnt the "best" build doesnt mean its not worth advocating, the reason i was advocating it was because i find it alot of fun and it works great for how i play the game. now if someone were to come on this board and only listen to people like you, they'd think trying anything other than shotguncharging on a vanguard was a waste of time and completely gimped when its not.

and no, the vanguard does not have awesome CQC abilities. it has a single ability that allows it to get into CQC. pretty big difference there. (like you stated shockwave isnt really that great, even at CQC and speced for wide)

there was no where in my first post that said anything like an off-build vanguard was the best, i said i personally liked it alot more and the vanguard has more versatility than most people realize, because it does. you for some unknown reason took great offense to me suggesting taht you dont have to restrict yourself to only shotgun charging as a vanguard and that there are many ways to play it and then decided to take it upon yourself to analyze every aspect of my posts.

why? i have no idea. you're taking this WAY too seriously. my posts have been "hey you can try things outside the normal standards for each class and come upw ith some great things" you're psots are "no you cant, they're gimped dont suggest that to people" its ridiculous.

honestly your posts are a bit more misleading than anyone elses. suggesting that anything other than a chargeshotgun spam vanguard will be utterly gimped alluding to a comparison of a soldier who only used a pistol.

(also, by viable i dont mean "capable of completing the game" i mean capable of doing WELL in the higher difficulties without actually feeling like you're using a bad build. its about context buddy thats obviously what i meant)

[JaegerBane]

Clonedzero wrote...

dude. ive admitted multiple times in this thread that its not an optimized build first of all. just because it isnt the "best" build doesnt mean its not worth advocating, the reason i was advocating it was because i find it alot of fun and it works great for how i play the game. now if someone were to come on this board and only listen to people like you, they'd think trying anything other than shotguncharging on a vanguard was a waste of time and completely gimped when its not.

And I've pointed out that there's no issue with you advocating any build you want, just that it would be good for the OP if you made it clear whether you're advocating a random build you find fun or a build that is as effective as possible within the class constraints. Different people find different things 'fun', so I don't really see why you're making such an issue about admitting as such up front. I never once said that you're 'wrong', I said that your points were misleading, i.e. that were saying one thing and implying it to mean something that doesn't stack up.

and no, the vanguard does not have awesome CQC abilities. it has a single ability that allows it to get into CQC.
pretty big difference there.

'Big difference'? Why does the fact that one power gives them better CQC abilities rather than several bear any relevance? The universal cooldown makes such a number irrelevant (since you can only use one at a time). Not to mention the fact that no other power in the game allows a class to engage in CQC virtually wherever and whenever he wants.

(like you stated shockwave isnt really that great, even at CQC and speced for wide)

Yes. If the idea that Shockwave is a bogus power is somehow new to you, you really shouldn't be dispensing advice on how to play classes. It's fine on Normal but on the higher difficulties, it's known to be a poor choice.

there was no where in my first post that said anything like an off-build vanguard was the best, i said i personally liked it alot more and the vanguard has more versatility than most people realize, because it does. you for some unknown reason took great offense to me suggesting taht you dont have to restrict yourself to only shotgun charging as a vanguard and that there are many ways to play it and then decided to take it upon yourself to analyze every aspect of my posts.

'Took offence'? I pointed out some irregularities in your point (like the part where you started going on about pure casters, or questioning why Vanguards use shotguns etc), that was all. Given that this thread is supposed to be for dispensing advice, I figured it was worth pointing that out. I don't know why you're being so defensive about it.

why? i have no idea. you're taking this WAY too seriously. my posts have been "hey you can try things outside the normal standards for each class and come upw ith some great things" you're psots are "no you cant, they're gimped dont suggest that to people" its ridiculous.

That's blatantly not what I was saying, and presuming you can read, you know that damn well. My point throughout is there is a difference between playing outside the norm, and playing a class in a way that makes it less effective (i mean, I even posted a link to a video to demonstrate this very point, so I can't see how you can legitimately accuse me of trying to advocate classes only play in one way). Throughout the thread you've constantly tried to conflate them together.

If you're argument is that you're trying to suggest to the player that he should just do whatever he wants, to put it bluntly, that is a waste of text. The guy is going to do what he wants regardless of what is mentioned in here - the only purpose this thread has is to give him some facts so he can make up his mind on the question he asked to begin with. Yakking on about 'versatility' or spouting insults doesn't help.

honestly your posts are a bit more misleading than anyone elses.

From someone who couldn't work out why Vanguards tend to use shotguns, or believed Adepts were pure casters, or advocating Shockwave on Insanity, I'm afraid this accusation is rather ironic.

(also, by viable i dont mean "capable of completing the game" i mean capable of doing WELL in the higher difficulties without actually feeling like you're using a bad build. its about context buddy thats obviously what i meant)

So in other words you say one thing but mean another, just like before. Here's a tip, if you're going to dispense advice, do it in plain english. Saying a build plays 'well' doesn't really mean much if you can't actually define what 'well' actually means.

[snfonseka]

kingcake777 wrote...

vangaurd + geth shotgun= rape

^This.

[Clonedzero]

dude. seriously, whats with the attitude? i dont get it.

i was simply saying there was other ways to play a vanguard and you get all super bent out of shape.
also no one mentioned insanity, and i never mentioned using shockwave. so uh? what?
the OP wasnt even asking for super specific advice, just a general "hey, what could i do with these two classes so i can decide which one i can play" there wasnt any "which one handles insanity better" question in there.

stop putting words in everyones mouth. i never said dont use the shotgun. i never said dont use charge. i never said use shockwave on insanity or that it was even remotely good.

just stop. all you're doing is making yourself look bad at this point. its ridiculous and i dont even know why im still responding to you.

so you tell me, what is the big deal with suggesting an off build because i think its fun? the OP wasnt very specific with what he wanted. i dunno why you've gotten so uppity about it. its really weird.

if it'll get you to shut up, I APOLOGIZE OH LORD OF CHARACTER BUILDS AND EXPERT ON EVERYTHING THAT IS MASS EFFECT! I SHOULD HAVE PUT A DISCLAIMER IN MY POST SAYING IT WASNT 100% OPTIMIZED! WHAT A GRIEVOUS WRONG IVE COMMITTED BY SUGGESTING SOMETHING FUN! WOE IS ME!

[JaegerBane]

Clonedzero wrote...
just stop. all you're doing is making yourself look bad at this point. its ridiculous and i dont even know why im still responding to you.

I don't know why you're still responding either, because you seem to be steadily becoming more and more agressive while, bizarrely, accusing me of the very thing you;re demonstrating (attitude, sticking words in peoples mouth, getting 'bent out of shape'... do I need to go back through and highlight examples of you doing all of this?)

All I was doing, all along, was debating your posts. You don't seem to be able to handle anyone questioning what you say. That's a shame, as that is what this forum is for. If you can't/won't do that then I'd wonder why you're on the bloomin' forum.

[Ice Cold J]

Vanguards are more similar to Soldiers than the Adepts, what with the shotguns, and adrenaline burst.
So, it sounds like you want to go with the Adept.
Plus, if you want to give them shotguns, I'm sure you've unlocked the achievement playing with your Soldier.

[Veloric Wu]

In my opinion Vanguard is often more fun than Adept. Why stay coldly behind when you have the choice to charge at your enemies and rip them to shreds?

I figure you're looking for something different from Soldier. Both of them are very different. But Vanguard gets the job done without hiding behind craters too often. And he/she performs many biotics!
Thus, some melee combats following a charge is blood-boiling. 

Just, don't take the hits too "bravely". Vanguard is no good at taking shots, so kill your opponents before they kill you.

Soldiers are full of gunplay but stable. Adepts are too careful. Vanguard is restless, and full of actions!

"You die first!" is Vanguard's philosophy, which makes the gameplay really fast-paced and intriguing.

Modifié par FeriktheCerberus, 03 juin 2011 - 04:10 .

[Onpoint17]

I would consider the Vanguard in ME1 because of the long cool downs of powers in this game. Vanguard has more of an arsenal and seems more versatile than the Adept. If you do play as the Adept I recommend choosing the shotgun as your bonus ability, because you're gonna need it while your powers are in cool down.

[CajNatalie]

Call me biased, because I am.
Vanguard all the way.

It's not a problem if you're not fond of going point blank... the Vanguard is a biotic and combat hybrid specialist. In Mass Effect 1 you can use your biotics to keep a battle going how you want it, with some adrenaline to reset your biotics for another round or for emergencies.
Meanwhile your Pistols are buffed slightly... the best weapon in the game is even better in a Vanguard's hands. You can stick to them as much as you want.
In Mass Effect 2, you get a bonus to weapon damage, two of the best ammo types in the game (personally I went with Inferno Ammo and ignored Cryo, but Inferno is of little use against Geth - its only real weakness).
By the time you hit the Collector Ship, you can pick up an Assault Rifle (I wouldn't recommend a Sniper due to aim adjustment throwing your crosshair off, which is disastrous on Insanity without time dilation to allow for fixing your aim quickly), putting your arsenal up to match the Soldier's in size. The SMG will continue to have uses for mid-range shield stripping (I found the Locust great against approaching YMIRs), and the Heavy Pistol + Inferno Ammo will be your choice for tearing down heavily armored enemies like Scions.
You have plenty of versatility in combat already, and I haven't even gotten to the shotgun yet.
Hell, there's no need to mention the shotgun, it's quite obvious how it works... if you're not up for maximum risk charges, then take it for charges against enemies who try to flank you or isolate themselves. I sometimes found myself doing battles backwards because I'd find someone at the back, charge in to them, kill them, steal their cover position, and everyone else would be stuck between me and my squadmates. Those battles ended quickly due to the turkey shoot effect, of course.
Then there are the biotics... despite issues in ME2 with biotics being nerfed, somewhat heavily even... they're still highly useful. I found myself using Shockwave and Pull more than ever on Insanity than I did on lower difficulties. Pull is perfect at ripping stubborn enemies out of cover.
Shockwave is good at powering through... everything... if it's down to Health, it goes flying, if it's protected, it'll stop shooting at you and be smashed out of cover ready for a shredding by you and your team. With quick and precise shooting, you can strip the armor of multiple husks and bowl them down with a shockwave nice and easy while stopping the advance of the others behind them to allow you to take shots at them.

In the end, if you do go with Vanguard, I'd ultimately still encourage you try mixing it up with CQB when you can, not just when it's safe or obvious. They can do a lot already as I've said, but with mastery of charging in to risky situations they're the most fun class to play.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 04 juin 2011 - 02:28 .

[Terminatort800]

The Adept is better.
I've played through ME2 on insanity with the adept and it was awesome.

[Chaosty]

Onpoint17 wrote...

I would consider the Vanguard in ME1 because of the long cool downs of powers in this game. Vanguard has more of an arsenal and seems more versatile than the Adept. If you do play as the Adept I recommend choosing the shotgun as your bonus ability, because you're gonna need it while your powers are in cool down.

I haven`t played the vanguard myself and won`t really comment alot on that. The people I know that plays vanguard complain on range issues. Having problems with things far away. A good charge shuld fix that, but unless you`re very good at what you`re doing it`s pretty suicidal. 

As an adept I really feel I have control over every situation. I`m rearly in real truble. As for the power cooldown I haven`t ever had problems because of that. Especially after you get the biotic powers cooldown upgrade. Some rounds I have pretty much only used my bio`s. If I have to wait two sec I use a few round with the hand cannon. I find it surprisingly effective. The diffrent powers are more than versatile enough to do the job.

The only thing thats a bit annoying with the adept is less health then the other classes. This means the shotgun are far from ideal for the adept. Considering for maksimal damage you need to be at a short range from the target, Thanks to the adepts low healt that`s a little silly.. Personally I prefer the sniper because it feels more effective. Killes of the enemies quicker and I like playing at high speed. Much more exciting

You could also use the assult rifle. Lots of bullets, Effective against shields and armor. And way better than the SMG which I find very disappointing.

Modifié par Chaosty, 05 octobre 2011 - 10:53 .