379 réponses à ce sujet

[Atakuma]

KilrB wrote...

It's not just a question of switching to a new engine.

Bioware's engine is capable of much more.

I've been playing The Witcher again before firing up TW2.

After seeing, again, what CD Project was able to do with the Aurora engine I cannot see why Bioware would switch to a new engine when they either:

1. Haven't figured out how to use their own engine yet.

or

2. Don't care enough to use it to it's capabilities.

Either way, a new engine (whether theirs or licensed from another) would be wasted until Bioware decides to put the required effort into making a game that actually needs it.

Dragon age doesn't use the aurora engine.

[Anathemic]

Atakuma wrote...

KilrB wrote...

It's not just a question of switching to a new engine.

Bioware's engine is capable of much more.

I've been playing The Witcher again before firing up TW2.

After seeing, again, what CD Project was able to do with the Aurora engine I cannot see why Bioware would switch to a new engine when they either:

1. Haven't figured out how to use their own engine yet.

or

2. Don't care enough to use it to it's capabilities.

Either way, a new engine (whether theirs or licensed from another) would be wasted until Bioware decides to put the required effort into making a game that actually needs it.

Dragon age doesn't use the aurora engine.

But the current engine used for DA2 is obviously better than the Aurora Engine, yet with the current engine it still doesn't surpass what CD Projekt RED did with the the older engine.

The point he's trying to make is that BioWare's engines have large amounts of untapped potential waiting to be used, as proven with the Aurora Engine and The Witcher.

[foil-]

Aesieru wrote...

I have to disagree entirely... I want quality over quantity... and that's always made a lot more sense.

And I couldn't enjoy a second of Dragon Age 2 and I really tried.

That's fair, I agree quality is nice.  I just find that the quality of products today are exceptional and the bar is very high compared to the Baldur's Gate and earlier years.  Games have become very cinimagraphic.  For me, not every movie needs to be Citizen Kane or Casablanca.  I enjoy a good popcorn movie as well.  And the reality is that the Casablanca's come out occasionally while the popcorn movies roll out weekly.

I can tell you gave Dragon Age 2 a fair shake from your post above and it wasn't for you.  That seems to be the very polarising view that is common around Dragon Age 2.  Almost everyone agrees where its faults are, its just for some the good side of the game was enough to tip the scale into the thumbs up category. 

For me a graphics engine is a very important part of immersion, so much so that I hate hearing the viewpoint that fantasy rpgs with a focus on story don't need them.  To me a good graphics engine is even more important for fantasy than first person shooters since we spend so much time slowly viewing our surroundings in the game.  And mood/weather/lighting/characters/architecture/magical effect, etc is so important in fantasy.  But while DA2 does not have an amazing graphics engine, it is adequate.  I think a third quick installment with the current tech and then it is time to freshen things up with an engine retool.  I would like to see the same thing with the Mass Effect series as well.

[KilrB]

Yes, CD Projekt brought more life to The Witcher with an "outdated" engine than Bioware managed in either Dragon Age game with newer engines.

Why would they invest in developing or licensing an even newer engine if they cannot or won't use it?

After TW2 it will be interesting to see what we get with Skyrim and Deus Ex:HR.

I have a feeling Bioware is going to have to do some serious pondering.

They're going to have to step-up big time if they intend to stay in the game after this debacle.

[SicoWolf-]

I imagine The Witcher 2 will be looking around "low quality" settings on consoles. It requires a pretty hefty computer to run the game on high/ultra settings. Something to keep in mind when doing comparisons. BioWare is now obviously a console first company.

I can't wait until developers switch over to DirectX 11. I just imagine what The Witcher 2 would have looked like given it did. DirectX 11 games will not only look much better than any DX9 game ever could, but they'll do so with little performance impact. DX11 is a big leap in technology. Unfortunately, we won't be seeing it used much until the next 'next gen' consoles arrive.

[tristax78]

DA Origins never looked good on consoles, period. On consoles it looked outright dated. DA2 on the other hand looks much better. The spells effects from Awakenings looked better than both.

I remember people being shocked at just how bad Origins looked on the 360, especially given it was from the same company who had amazing Mass Effect graphics.

I've never understood why RPGs like Dragons Age or Oblivion can't look as good as other massivly open games such as Assassians Creed 2 / Brotherhood or Red Dead Redemption on consoles.  Bethesda has to have to worst animations in the genre.

Modifié par tristax78, 01 juin 2011 - 09:53 .

[foil-]

SicoWolf- wrote...

I imagine The Witcher 2 will be looking around "low quality" settings on consoles. It requires a pretty hefty computer to run the game on high/ultra settings. Something to keep in mind when doing comparisons. BioWare is now obviously a console first company.

I can't wait until developers switch over to DirectX 11. I just imagine what The Witcher 2 would have looked like given it did. DirectX 11 games will not only look much better than any DX9 game ever could, but they'll do so with little performance impact. DX11 is a big leap in technology. Unfortunately, we won't be seeing it used much until the next 'next gen' consoles arrive.

The problem is that most developers don't use either dx9 or dx11 to its maximum potential.  Crysis2, while not a great game story wise, uses DX9 (maybe 10) to its maximum capacity.  They produced a game that looks better than any DX11 game that I have seen including metro2099 (which I will admit not playing through: I only saw some areas on a friends computer).  I'm sure DX11 has the ability to exceed DX9, but only if it is used and only with the graphical horsepower to run it.

Console developers are just now very comfortable with the current console technology and how to use it properly.  A switch to DX11 for consoles is not necessarly a good thing.  And even I was suprised at seeing the quality on consoles lately after being a PC gamer for many years.  Its not PC quality but much higher than I expected.

[tmp7704]

KilrB wrote...

After seeing, again, what CD Project was able to do with the Aurora engine I cannot see why Bioware would switch to a new engine when they either:

1. Haven't figured out how to use their own engine yet.

or

2. Don't care enough to use it to it's capabilities.

CD Projekt guys spent couple years modifying the Aurora engine to suit their needs and allow for the extra features they wanted. BioWare people effectively did their own version of that, writing their new engine. Each team simply selected different approach and features for their engine, hence the differences in final products.

[SicoWolf-]

The problem is that most developers don't use either dx9 or dx11 to its maximum potential.  Crysis2, while not a great game story wise, uses DX9 (maybe 10) to its maximum capacity.  They produced a game that looks better than any DX11 game that I have seen including metro2099 (which I will admit not playing through: I only saw some areas on a friends computer).  I'm sure DX11 has the ability to exceed DX9, but only if it is used and only with the graphical horsepower to run it.

Console developers are just now very comfortable with the current console technology and how to use it properly.  A switch to DX11 for consoles is not necessarly a good thing.  And even I was suprised at seeing the quality on consoles lately after being a PC gamer for many years.  Its not PC quality but much higher than I expected.

If you look at all of the new tools and possibilities that DirectX 11 brings to the table, you'll start to get an idea of how much better games will look. Tessellation is perhaps the most promising feature of DX11, allowing near photo realistic detail while being incredibly efficient.

The new Unreal 3 engine is so far the most promising DX11 engine that I've seen: http://www.gamefront...gine-3-trailer/

[Anathemic]

tmp7704 wrote...

KilrB wrote...

After seeing, again, what CD Project was able to do with the Aurora engine I cannot see why Bioware would switch to a new engine when they either:

1. Haven't figured out how to use their own engine yet.

or

2. Don't care enough to use it to it's capabilities.

CD Projekt guys spent couple years modifying the Aurora engine to suit their needs and allow for the extra features they wanted. BioWare people effectively did their own version of that, writing their new engine. Each team simply selected different approach and features for their engine, hence the differences in final products.

Writing a whole new damn engine can't get it to work to maximum efficiency. Not to mention this engine was used in both DA:O and DA2 (with DA2 it's modified).

[foil-]

SicoWolf- wrote...

The problem is that most developers don't use either dx9 or dx11 to its maximum potential.  Crysis2, while not a great game story wise, uses DX9 (maybe 10) to its maximum capacity.  They produced a game that looks better than any DX11 game that I have seen including metro2099 (which I will admit not playing through: I only saw some areas on a friends computer).  I'm sure DX11 has the ability to exceed DX9, but only if it is used and only with the graphical horsepower to run it.

Console developers are just now very comfortable with the current console technology and how to use it properly.  A switch to DX11 for consoles is not necessarly a good thing.  And even I was suprised at seeing the quality on consoles lately after being a PC gamer for many years.  Its not PC quality but much higher than I expected.

If you look at all of the new tools and possibilities that DirectX 11 brings to the table, you'll start to get an idea of how much better games will look. Tessellation is perhaps the most promising feature of DX11, allowing near photo realistic detail while being incredibly efficient.

The new Unreal 3 engine is so far the most promising DX11 engine that I've seen: http://www.gamefront...gine-3-trailer/

I think DX11 has amazing potential.  I just feel the widespread use of the technology is still beyond any non-sli/crossfire solution.  Tesselation does amazing things with resources available, but still seems to stress current mid to high range hardware.  I would also love to see cloth physics start to make its way into RPGs (flowing cloaks anyone ).

If someone can find out how to elegantly use DX11 on current hardware, more power to them.  I've seen a little of the new unreal engine, but the proof will be in the pudding.  The sub skin light refraction in the engine should make some nice improvements in character models.  I'm not up to speed enough to know how heavily tesselation is being used.

[Chromie]

SicoWolf- wrote...

I imagine The Witcher 2 will be looking around "low quality" settings on consoles. It requires a pretty hefty computer to run the game on high/ultra settings. Something to keep in mind when doing comparisons. BioWare is now obviously a console first company.

Witcher 2 on low quality is still better looking then DA2. It's one of those pages that show it at low quality

[ScepticMatt]

ScepticMatt wrote...

Executive Producter of the DA Franchise Mark Darrah on twitter
http://twitter.com/#!/BioMarkDarrah

I have asked him if porting their RPG tech to different engines is possible.
-snipped-

Nothing precise obviously, buy I got the following response for those interested:

@ScepticMatt #BattleField3 and #Frostbite are definately looking great.

Modifié par ScepticMatt, 02 juin 2011 - 06:54 .

[Chromie]

Well it's Official Witcher 2 is coming to Xbox 360. Just announced on their conference so no reason for people to say Red Engine can't run on consoles. At E3 there will be live gameplay to see how it runs on the 360.

Modifié par Ringo12, 02 juin 2011 - 07:39 .

[Anathemic]

Ringo12 wrote...

Well it's Official Witcher 2 is coming to Xbox 360. Just announced on their conference so no reason for people to say Red Engine can't run on consoles. At E3 there will be live gameplay to see how it runs on the 360.

Pretty awesome, the trailer is badass.

For people who haven't seen it yet:

[In Exile]

Ringo12 wrote...

Well it's Official Witcher 2 is coming to Xbox 360. Just announced on their conference so no reason for people to say Red Engine can't run on consoles. At E3 there will be live gameplay to see how it runs on the 360.

I don't think anyone said it can't run on consoles. It's pretty obvious TW2 was designed with the console first in mind.

 I just said that it's too taxing for a PC that's specced better than a console, so the RED engine has to give something up. Either the high texture models, or the quantity of NPCs, or how it loads. But something has to go to make it work on consoles to the level of the PC.

[neppakyo]

In Exile wrote...

Ringo12 wrote...

Well it's Official Witcher 2 is coming to Xbox 360. Just announced on their conference so no reason for people to say Red Engine can't run on consoles. At E3 there will be live gameplay to see how it runs on the 360.

I don't think anyone said it can't run on consoles. It's pretty obvious TW2 was designed with the console first in mind.

 I just said that it's too taxing for a PC that's specced better than a console, so the RED engine has to give something up. Either the high texture models, or the quantity of NPCs, or how it loads. But something has to go to make it work on consoles to the level of the PC.

I bet the low resolution of consoles will help with framerate, and by the trailer looks like settings below the low on PC.

[In Exile]

neppakyo wrote...
I bet the low resolution of consoles will help with framerate, and by the trailer looks like settings below the low on PC.

I just think TW2 loses a lot of its magic the weaker the graphics get. I saw screens of the game my old PC can't play... and it takes away from the experience. There are some parts of TW2 that are just meant to be a visual experience. And playing on low has you miss that.

[Chromie]

In Exile wrote...

neppakyo wrote...
I bet the low resolution of consoles will help with framerate, and by the trailer looks like settings below the low on PC.

I just think TW2 loses a lot of its magic the weaker the graphics get. I saw screens of the game my old PC can't play... and it takes away from the experience. There are some parts of TW2 that are just meant to be a visual experience. And playing on low has you miss that.

Well we can only trust CDProjekt will try to make the game look as good as possible.

[ScepticMatt]

Crytek has demonstrated their new DX11 tech with Crysis 2 at Computex 2011
Features include:
- Hardware Tessellation
- SSS
- improved Water effects
- full resolution HDR
- bokeh DOF


So a good amount of major tech is up to par with the updated UE3 now.

Modifié par ScepticMatt, 02 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[SphereofSilence]

Correct me if I'm wrong, TW2's engine was not a ramped up version of Aurora, but an entirely new engine. That's what I gather anyway.

[ScepticMatt]

^ No, but TW1 used a modified Aurora one.

[Chromie]

SphereofSilence wrote...

Correct me if I'm wrong, TW2's engine was not a ramped up version of Aurora, but an entirely new engine. That's what I gather anyway.

Witcher 1 was a a modified Aurora engine. Witcher 2 is brand new and since there will be live gameplay at E3 for Witcher 2 on the 360 we can get a feel for the graphics soon.

[neppakyo]

In Exile wrote...

I just think TW2 loses a lot of its magic the weaker the graphics get. I saw screens of the game my old PC can't play... and it takes away from the experience. There are some parts of TW2 that are just meant to be a visual experience. And playing on low has you miss that.

I agree, most console users are used to the graphics on them, so TW2 will probably be a visual treat for them.

I play TW2 on ultra, with ubersampling off. Average around 45FPS and my system is not top of the line, the newest part is  a GTX 460.

[In Exile]

neppakyo wrote...

I agree, most console users are used to the graphics on them, so TW2 will probably be a visual treat for them.

I play TW2 on ultra, with ubersampling off. Average around 45FPS and my system is not top of the line, the newest part is  a GTX 460.

The 8800GTX and I can't handle more than medium textures with everything on low. But I can run DA2 on basically max minus the AA, and DA:O outright on max (and TW on max while we're at it), which goes to show the difference in engines.

At any rate, I think Bioware undervalues environments versus character models and animations. That's the difference between DA:O and TW, and DA2 and TW.

What Bioware needs isn't a new engine, but better landscaping.

Modifié par In Exile, 04 juin 2011 - 05:19 .